Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation
- Thread starter dwight92070
- Start date
That's silly. No, it's not water that saves us. It is God that saves us when He forgives us and gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit. He said He would do that when we repent and are baptized. He further added that was a promise. Do you believe in God's promises?
Johann
Well-known member
Of course.
God Saves Us
God's role in salvation: The Bible teaches that salvation is ultimately the work of God. It is by God's grace that we are saved, not by our own works. This is foundational to Christian doctrine.
Ephesians 2:8-9: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
Titus 3:5: “He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.”
2. God Forgives Us
Forgiveness as part of salvation: Forgiveness is central to the Christian understanding of salvation. Through the death and resurrection of Jesus, God offers forgiveness for sins.
1 John 1:9: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
Acts 2:38: “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.”
3. Gift of the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit as God's gift: The Holy Spirit is indeed given to believers as a gift, marking their adoption into God's family and empowering them for Christian living.
Acts 2:38: “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
This verse clearly links repentance and baptism with receiving the Holy Spirit, emphasizing that the Holy Spirit is a promise for those who obey.
4. The Promise of the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is promised to believers: The promise of the Holy Spirit is a central theme in the New Testament, particularly after Jesus' resurrection and ascension.
Luke 11:13: “If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
John 14:16-17: “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.”
Acts 1:4-5: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Jesus speaks here about the promised Holy Spirit coming after His ascension, to empower the disciples.
5. Repentance and Baptism as Necessary Acts
Repentance: Repentance, turning away from sin and toward God, is consistently emphasized in Scripture as essential for salvation.
Acts 2:38: “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.”
Mark 1:15: “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Baptism: Baptism is a public declaration of faith and is associated with receiving forgiveness and the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is commanded by Jesus and practiced by the apostles.
Matthew 28:19: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 2:38 (again): “Repent and be baptized... for the forgiveness of your sins.”
Romans 6:3-4: “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.”
6. Promise of Salvation and the Holy Spirit
Promise: The giving of the Holy Spirit is a promise from God, not a mere possibility or suggestion. This promise is for those who believe, repent, and are baptized.
Acts 2:39: “For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
Galatians 3:14: “So that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.”
J.
MTMattie
Active member
@Doug Brents
Do you .. and all of you remember Karla Faye Tucker? Or are you too young.?
She is a woman who got a jail house conversion. NO... it did not keep her execution from happening but she was confident enough to look forward to it.
POINT? No Baptism... That we ever heard of .
Watch this small video on it.
Then a couple more minutes. here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LF-taXMf_A
Johann
Well-known member
Apollos was a great help to them when he came. Here was a man who knew the Old Testament Scriptures. "When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed," doing what he could do best, answering the arguments of the Jews right in public, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ. And how much more could he do this now, armed with the new facts he had learned concerning the Lord Jesus! In his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul acknowledges the fact that he had planted, but Apollos had watered 1 Corinthians 3;6). Paul was grateful for the ministry of this mighty man of the Scriptures who could thus confirm and strengthen the word that he had planted there. In the next section, Paul appears again:
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism." (Act_19:1-3 RSV)
After visiting these churches of Galatia and Phrygia, Paul came to Ephesus just as he had promised at the close of his second journey.
You remember that Luke tells us:
And they came to Ephesus, and he left them [Priscilla and Aquilla] there; but he himself went into the synagogue end argued with the Jews. When they asked him to stay for a longer period, he declined; but on taking leave of them he said, "I will return to you if God wills," and he set sail from Ephesus. (Act_18:19-21 RSV)
Now he is fulfilling that promise, returning to Ephesus. Naturally he went to the synagogue where he had been invited to stay. When he came into the Jewish community there at Ephesus he found certain disciples. We are not told whose they were, but, linking this with the previous account, it is clear that these were disciples of Apollos. They were men and women whom he had told about Jesus, at least to the extent of the baptism of John. Paul heard them speaking about Jesus. He obviously thought they were Christians when he first met them. But, as he watched them, he observed that something was missing, and I am sure there is puzzlement in his voice when finally he says to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
This question indicates that the normal Christian pattern is that the Spirit is given immediately upon belief in Jesus Christ. The King James Version says "since you believed," but that is not a proper translation.
The word in Greek is clearly when. There is no suggestion here that the Spirit of God is given a long period after belief in Christ. Jesus had predicted that it would be immediate. In the seventh chapter of John we are told that on the great day of the feast Jesus stood up and proclaimed, "If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, 'Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water...'" (Joh_7:37b-38 RSV). John adds, "Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive..." (Joh_7:39a RSV).
So it is belief in Jesus which brings the Holy Spirit.
This is what puzzled Paul. These people knew something about Jesus. They appeared to be disciples of Jesus. But there was something missing. What it was we are not told. Perhaps Paul saw that there was no joy in their lives, or no peace or certainty. Certainly there was no power. They were still under the domain of the Law and had not yet been brought out into the deliverance and joy and peace of the full Christian message. So he asked them, "Did you receive the Spirit when you believed?"
The disciples answered that they had never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit. That does not mean, as it sounds here, that they never know there was a third Person in the Trinity, for John clearly taught the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit had come upon Jesus when John baptized him, and he knew of this. They meant, "We have never heard that the Holy Spirit is now given, that he has come, as John announced that he would." Paul, understanding that, asks them, "What were you baptized into?" And they replied, "Into John's baptism." It was clear then to Paul what the problem was. They were halfway Christians. They had come as far as repentance and forgiveness of sins, but they knew nothing about the work of the Holy Spirit. So he begins to instruct them:
And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve of them in all. (Act_19:4-7 RSV)
It is again obvious, as we have noted in previous studies, that Luke is summarizing for us. Paul undoubtedly gave them full instruction in the truth about Jesus. Luke simply gathers it all up in these phrases. Paul went on to tell them:About the death of Jesus, and what that accomplished with respect to the old life they had been living; and then about the resurrection which made available to them a risen life, a different kind of life, and then about the coming of the Holy Spirit who would make all this real in their experience continuously, moment by moment, day after day. After he instructed them in this way, they were then re-baptized in the name of Jesus. That is very significant, for it indicates that the baptism which they had received with an incomplete knowledge of Jesus was really not Christian baptism.
I meet many people who have been baptized as babies, when they had no opportunity to understand what the Christian message was all about, and no opportunity to exercise faith in a risen Lord who could indwell them and strengthen them by his Spirit. Sometimes they ask me, "Do you think I should be re-baptized, now that I have really come to know a risen Lord?" On the basis of this text, I say to them, "Yes, you should, because your baptism did not represent your personal faith in a risen, abiding Lord."
When these people came to this place, they were re-baptized by the Apostle Paul. And, when they were baptized, Paul laid his hands upon them. Now, do not think that this imparted anything to them. That is never what the laying on of hands does. It signifies identification. Paul here is identifying these twelve people with the body of Christ. He is identifying them with that new body formed by the Holy Spirit when he came on the day of Pentecost and is drawing them into the family of the Lord Jesus by laying his hands upon them. The moment he performed this act of identification, the Spirit came into their lives. They believed on Jesus and the Spirit came immediately.
The mark of his coming was the exercise of spiritual gifts. It is strange to me how often people read this passage and note only that they spoke in tongues. They immediately think that this is another Pentecost. But there are two gifts mentioned here. Whenever the Holy Spirit comes he always gives spiritual gifts. He did so when he came into your life, and the whole aim and purpose of your redemption is to discover, and put to work, those spiritual gifts which were given to you. And here, when the Spirit came, immediately they began the exercise of their spiritual gifts, the first of which was speaking in tongues. This is listed as one of the gifts of the Spirit in First Corinthians 12. It is very natural that it would be given on this particular occasion, for, as Paul tells us in First Corinthians 14, the gift of tongues is designed especially as a witness to unbelieving Jews.
These twelve disciples were Jews. They had sat under the teaching of Apollos, probably having heard him in the synagogue at Ephesus. They lived in the Jewish community, and were regarded as a sect or group of Jews. Now they have become Christians, but their friends and those all around them are still Jews. Within this setting -- if not actually in the synagogue then in the Jewish community -- as they are now filled with the Holy Spirit they use the gift of tongues by which they praise God in languages they had never learned, and do so publicly (never privately) as a sign to unbelievers that God is at work.
Remember that Paul tells us in First Corinthians 14 that this is the answer to the prediction of the prophet Isaiah. Isaiah had said to the people of Israel in his day, "By men of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord," (1Co_14:21). That is, "When you see and hear men coming to you speaking with other tongues, then you will know that the hour has struck when God turns from Israel to the Gentile world. The gospel is now to go out to the Gentiles as well." This was the sign, then, to the unbelieving Jews.
Now, this is the biblical gift of tongues, and it was perfectly proper that it should be exercised on this occasion, for this is the situation in which it was designed to be used. There is today, as you well know, an imitation gift of tongues, a psychological phenomenon which has been known among men for centuries. Even Plato discusses it in some of his lectures to the Greeks in Athens, four hundred years before Christ. It is a phenomenon frequently heard among all kinds and classes of people, so it does not measure up to the biblical gift. Those who fall into it by mistake are misled, and enter into a time of real weakness in faith wherein they are spiritually derailed for a while, until God in grace delivers them and sets them free to begin to grow again in faith in the Lord.
I fully understand the appeal that this makes to many. It seems to offer such a wonderful experience and a shortcut to spirituality. It seems so desirable. I went through this very experience myself in my early Christian life, and I fully understand its appeal. But as you compare it with the biblical description of the gift of tongues, it is not the same thing. The biblical gift is a proper one which will bless, encourage, and strengthen those who employ it. The false gift is anything but. Thus it leads to spiritual blindness.
Along with the gift of tongues was also given the gift of prophesying. This is the ability to open and expound the Scriptures in power and truth. The word prophet comes from two Greek words: pro phaino. Phaino means "to cause to shine" or "to make shine," and pro means "before." So a prophet is one who stands before the Word of God and causes it to shine, who illuminates people's lives with the power and truth of the Scriptures. Peter uses it that way: "We have a more sure word of prophecy which shines as a light in a dark place..." (2Pe_1:19).
These twelve new Christians of Ephesus began to prophecy as the Spirit illumined their minds. They saw great truth in the Scriptures and began to declare it in power. This immediately was a sign to the apostle that they had moved into the full-orbed experience of the Christian life.
Note that one of these gifts was designed for unbelievers and the other for believers. Paul particularly tells us this in First Corinthians 14. The gift of tongues, he says, is for unbelievers, but the gift of prophecy is for believers 1Co_14:22). Here in the community in Ephesus both groups were present: The unbelieving Jews who still refused to accept the truth of the Scriptures about Jesus, and those who had become Christians, who, with Priscilla and Aquila, were rejoicing in all that the Lord had given them and who needed this exercise of the gift of prophecy.
When these twelve people were filled, and the Holy Spirit had come upon them, they demonstrated the fact by their possession of these gifts of the Spirit. Therefore no apostle could ever again ask them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" There was a difference about their lives. They obviously were now filled with new power and strength. It came when they believed in Jesus. That is always what releases the working of the Holy Spirit.
There are many people who believe in Jesus and yet who today do not evidence much sign of the work of the Holy Spirit.
I have to admit that there are many churches in our land today where, as I am privileged sometimes to speak in them, I want to say to the people, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" There is no sign of it.
Recently I was at a Christian college, and spoke in chapel. As in most Christian colleges, though I found a wonderful group of fine, growing young Christians on campus, the chapel service it was so dull and dead that I could hardly bear it. I sat on the platform looking out at this sea of sterility before me and thought to myself (I had been working on this text), "If the Apostle Paul were here, I think he would stand up and say, with puzzlement in his voice, 'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?'" And they told me that the chapels were much better than they had been!
The Holy Spirit is given upon the exercise of belief in the Lord Jesus. That does not stop with one act of believing. This is where we tend to get confused. We are to keep on believing in the Lord Jesus and thus to manifest his power and vitality in our lives. It is that continual act of believing which releases the freshness of the Spirit in our lives. Paul says to the Colossians, "As you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so live in him..." (Col_2:6 RSV). "As you received him by an act of believing, keep on believing, walk in him, live in him, in order that you might demonstrate the power of the Holy Spirit." This is why, when some Jews came to him and asked, "What must we do to do the works of God?" Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you keep on believing in him whom he has sent..." (Joh_6:28-29).
So what is wrong if, in our Christian lives, there is no evidence of the working of the Holy Spirit, None of the joy, none of the grace, none of the power?
Well, it is because we are not believing in him. We believed in him once, maybe twenty or thirty years ago, but that believing has ceased. There is now no sense of expectancy, no fresh anticipation of his working in our lives today.
I am sure if I passed through this congregation and asked each one of you individually, "Do you believe in Jesus?" most of you would say, "Yes." Then I would have to ask this question: "Well, did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" "Are the signs of the Spirit of God in your life?" "Are his presence, his power, his working, the freshness, the vitality, the enthusiasm, the excitement of the Spirit visible in your Christian life?"
If not, you have ceased believing in Jesus. That is the reason. There must be this expectation of his working, for he makes himself available to us continually, moment by moment, to fulfill every demand life makes upon us, as we expect him to do so. That note of expectancy is the evidence, or the sign, of faith which marks the difference between the sterility, the deadness, and the dullness of religiosity without the Spirit, and the fullness, the freshness, and the vigor and power of a Spirit-filled life. So this question, addressed to these halfway Christians of long ago Ephesus, still has meaning for us today, as we understand the need for a continual act of faith in the Lord Jesus.
Prayer:
Lord Jesus, how frequently we fail to understand the truth of your promise to us that you have come to live within us, and that your life can be as visible in us today as it ever was in this first-century time when these new Christians broke out with such startling effect upon the darkened and dying world of their day. Grant to us anew, Lord, the faith to lay hold of this promise and to make visible in our lives, moment by moment, this same sweet freshness and sovereign moving of the Holy Spirit. Flame of God, we ask you to touch us, to burn away the dross and to set us afire and aflame with that which manifests the character, the life, of the Lord Jesus. We ask in his name, Amen.
Title: Halfway Christians
By: Ray C. Stedman
J.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
If that is the case, then you have not yet been baptized into Christ. Infant baptism is meaningless, because personal belief in Christ is a prerequisite for salvation (John 3:16, Acts 8:37, Mark 16:16, and many others), and as an infant you neither understood who Jesus was, nor could you confess Him as Lord in your life (Rom 10:9-10).
Yes, baptism is only necessary once, but if the person receiving baptism does not understand who Christ is, what He did, and the fact that they are lost and in need of a savior, then all that happens when they go into the water is that they get wet; they did not meet the Spirit in the water, and He did not remove their sins or unite them with the Lord's resurrection.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
He did. He said by the Spirit AND by water.
MTMattie
Active member
If I wasn't then I will have to rely on being spirit fill only because 10 years ago I tried and I was rebuffed and told no thanks by one denomination
near me, and another that would have been extremely impossible for my mom to do with certain problems she had... and I was not going to do it at the one place where you did not have to have a reason, you could just come and be in a mixed group of people wanting to.
If I am doomed... that fate was preached to me by members of a church of Christ group who happened to be on a forum I was on at the time.
Man, life would be so much easier to believe in predestination.
And the expletive Presbyterians believe you cannot partake of Holy Communion unless you understand who Christ is, what He did, and the fact that we are lost and in need of a savior, That was the reason for our upbringing and the reason the church placed so much emphasis in the communicants classes.
John 6: 53-57, Jesus says, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
So every single one of us who has only an infant baptism.... that included all Presbyterians... as well as all RCC... OCC ... :Lutherans...and others as well... I guess is headed down that yellow brick road to annihilation ( at best) or a fiery grave of damnation
Thank you for pointing that out.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Your definition refuses to acknowledge Scripture.
Eph 2:8-9 says that it is through faith that we receive the gift of salvation from God.
Rom 10:9-10 says that confession of Jesus as Lord RESULTS IN receiving salvation.
One says faith results in salvation, the other says confession "with the mouth" (obviously a physical action) results in salvation. Thus, faith requires action to be real; as James says, faith without action is dead. Salvation is life, and the dead cannot bring life.
Then you did not "put your faith in Jesus" at that point. Faith requires obedient action. At that point, you did not fully understand the Gospel (because you did not have a proper teacher), and you did not obey the Gospel (repentance, confession of Christ, and baptism).
First off, I did not quote any particular verse, nor cite a passage of Scripture. That was a conglomeration of many passages that express the same idea:
2 Cor 6:2 (as you cited) is one
Heb 4:6-7 - today is the day to enter into God's rest
Acts 16:33 - that very hour of the night ... immediately
Acts 22:16 - make haste and be baptized
Acts 8:36 - what prevents me from being baptized [immediately]
And there are others.
I don't know of a single prison that won't allow a prisoner, even one in solitary confinement, to go, under guard, to a place where he can be baptized. Even prisoners in solitary can receive ministerial services, and if that prisoner comes to faith in Christ, baptism can be arranged for them.
You are trying to make exceptions for God's law. This is like asking if it is ok to murder the fat man stuck in the only exit to the cave with 100 people in it that will die when the water inside rises up and engulfs them. There is no exception to God's law to not murder. Lack of action does not constitute murder of those 100 (even though they may all die), but murdering the one man is still murder (and therefore condemned by God).
The man on the island was not there alone from infancy. He had opportunity to know God before he was stranded on the island. And therefore he has no excuse for not having accepted Christ then. As it says in the passages cited above, today is the day to accept Christ, because you never know what tomorrow may bring.
It is not, "Sorry, you weren't baptized when you first believed in that space station - you're destined for hell.". God's real response will be, "Sorry you put yourself (or something else) in MY place in your life, and refused to accept me as God, and give ME all the glory in your life. You sinned, and because you sinned you are condemned. If you had accepted and obeyed my Son, you could have come back into relationship with Me, but because you did not accept and obey My Son, you remain condemned for your sin.
dwight92070
Well-known member
No, I'm not talking about exceptions. I'm talking about real life. How many men and women died in a nursing home, praying for God's mercy and salvation before they died? And given their physical condition and age, there was no possible way for them to be baptized. You would say, "Too bad, too late, you didn't get baptized, you're doomed to hell."
Your God is a merciless tyrant.
The woman taken in adultery. Your God and you would demand that she be stoned. But my God, Jesus, did not condemn her. The woman at the well was living in adultery. Your God and you would demand that she be stoned because that's the Law, just like you demand that all be baptized, even when it's not possible. Then your God would mercilessly send her to hell. My God, Jesus had mercy on her and was after her heart. "I desire compassion and not sacrifice (baptism). Mt. 9:13
You're just like the Judaizers, who said, "Unless you're circumcised, you cannot be saved." You say, "Unless you're baptized, you cannot be saved."
You're a legalist with a warped view of God. You "have fallen away from the FAITH (Notice Paul did not say "from baptism"), paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in your own conscience as with a branding iron." 1 Tim. 4:1-2 Your false doctrine is burned into your conscience. Your "fruit" is legalism and no mercy.
Jesus said that the Sabbath law was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. He broke the Sabbath repeatedly. The same is true for baptism. Baptism was made for man, not man for baptism. You are legalistically enslaved to baptism. I am a willing slave to my merciful God, Jesus. I have obeyed Him in being baptized, but He saved me two weeks before that. You wickedly say that I was not truly saved. That's a lie. I put my faith in Jesus and He saved me, even though I was not baptized yet.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, (and meticulously require that all be baptized, even when it's not possible) and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: Justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others." Mat. 23:23
Your God is a merciless tyrant.
The woman taken in adultery. Your God and you would demand that she be stoned. But my God, Jesus, did not condemn her. The woman at the well was living in adultery. Your God and you would demand that she be stoned because that's the Law, just like you demand that all be baptized, even when it's not possible. Then your God would mercilessly send her to hell. My God, Jesus had mercy on her and was after her heart. "I desire compassion and not sacrifice (baptism). Mt. 9:13
You're just like the Judaizers, who said, "Unless you're circumcised, you cannot be saved." You say, "Unless you're baptized, you cannot be saved."
You're a legalist with a warped view of God. You "have fallen away from the FAITH (Notice Paul did not say "from baptism"), paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in your own conscience as with a branding iron." 1 Tim. 4:1-2 Your false doctrine is burned into your conscience. Your "fruit" is legalism and no mercy.
Jesus said that the Sabbath law was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. He broke the Sabbath repeatedly. The same is true for baptism. Baptism was made for man, not man for baptism. You are legalistically enslaved to baptism. I am a willing slave to my merciful God, Jesus. I have obeyed Him in being baptized, but He saved me two weeks before that. You wickedly say that I was not truly saved. That's a lie. I put my faith in Jesus and He saved me, even though I was not baptized yet.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, (and meticulously require that all be baptized, even when it's not possible) and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: Justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others." Mat. 23:23
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Doug Brents
Well-known member
No, they had a chance when they were younger. Don't give me the, "they never had a chance" routine. They had the chance when they were younger, and turned it down for a "worldly" lifestyle, and then when it is too late you want to come along and says that it doesn't matter what they did or didn't do when they had the chance, now all they have to do is give lip service to what they spurned when they were younger and God will accept it. But He says He won't!
No, He is just and the justifier of those who have faith in Jesus. He cannot be just and still accept those who sin without them coming to Him through Jesus who paid the price for the sins of everyone who enters into His fellowship the way HE (not I) says they must.
The Pharisees who caught the woman in adultery were duty bound by the Law to stone the woman (and the man) for the sin. Jesus was the only one (and still is) who could make an exception to the Law's mandate. I do not have His authority to make exceptions to His command about baptism. The Judaizers were trying to carry over OT laws into the NT. But baptism, while it was also an OT practice with a different purpose, is also a NT practice that God says results in receiving forgiveness of sins.
If Jesus had broken the sabbath then He would have been a sinner (just like all of us) and He would not have been a pure sacrifice worthy of saving all of our souls. He never once broke the sabbath of God. He broke the Pharisee's rules about the sabbath, but breaking their rules (their "hedge" around the Word of God) is not sin.
"Without neglecting the others"!!!!! Jesus' admonition to the scribes and Pharisees did not negate the binding nature of the tithe, or of ceremonial washing, or any of the other requirements of the Law that were in force at the time. Yes, mercy and justice and faithfulness are essential. But you are trying to negate one of the core teachings in the Gospel.
dwight92070
Well-known member
I see, so you have just declared every person in a nursing home (or not) who is physically unable to be baptized as doomed to hell, because they all had a chance when they were younger and healthier, so you and God have just written them off as damaged goods, with no chance of getting saved. That's sounds about right for a deceived legalist.
dwight92070
Well-known member
The true core teaching for salvation is "faith alone". Faith is our part and grace is God's part. Baptismal regeneration is false teaching. You are blind. Jesus obviously broke the Sabbath many times. If He was keeping it, they wouldn't have condemned Him for healing on the Sabbath day. Since He was Lord of the Sabbath, he was not bound by it. No, it was not a sin for Him to work on the Sabbath, which He claimed to do.
Nor do you have the authority to declare that a believer who is not baptized is not saved, but you say that all the time, when the Bible does not.
Sure, the tithe was commanded, just like baptism is commanded, right after you are born again. But Jesus is saying that mercy, justice and faith are "the weightier provisions of the law." They were more important than tithing. Even so they are more important than baptism. Why? Because baptism does not save you, but mercy, justice, and faith is what is necessary for salvation.
Baptism is the first "core" teaching for NEW BELIEVERS, but mercy, justice, and faith are the CORE TEACHING to BECOME A NEW BELIEVER.
Jesus admitted that He broke the Sabbath: "For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath." "BUT HE ANSWERED THEM, "MY FATHER IS WORKING UNTIL NOW (YES, ON THE SABBATH), AND I MYSELF AM WORKING."
Not only did He Himself break the Sabbath, but He commanded the sick man by the pool of Bethesda to GET UP, PICK UP HIS PALLET AND WALK ON THE SABBATH DAY. John 5:16-17
Even the Jews knew it was a violation of the Sabbath to carry a pallet, but Jesus TOLD HIM TO CARRY IT JUST TO IRK THE JEWS, AND TO GET THEM TO SEE THAT HE WAS IN FACT, LORD OF THE SABBATH.
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dwight92070
Well-known member
Did you notice that the Holy Spirit did not require Cornelius, his relatives, and his close friends to 1. Confess Jesus as Lord or 2. Be baptized BEFORE HE FELL UPON THEM, giving them salvation on the spot. They were born again, indwelt, forgiven, saved, instantly! Peter knew that was true, so he ordered them to be baptized, which all NEW believers should do, as their first obedient work.
There is not a single passage of scripture that says or even suggests that salvation is by "faith alone". Faith is certainly the key to salvation, but it is clearly not "faith alone".
Johann
Well-known member
Scripture on Faith as Key to Salvation
It is true that the Bible emphasizes faith as the key to salvation. Several passages highlight that faith is essential for salvation:
Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
Romans 10:9: "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
These passages affirm that faith is absolutely central to salvation.
2. Faith Alone—The Debate
The claim that the Bible never says salvation is by "faith alone" requires clarification:
In James 2:24, the idea that salvation is not by faith alone is explicitly stated: "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
However, Paul in his letters, particularly Romans 3:28, seems to emphasize that justification is by faith apart from works: "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law."
Thus, Paul argues that justification (being declared righteous before God) is not based on works of the law but on faith. In contrast, James stresses that faith without works is dead, suggesting that true faith produces good works, and works demonstrate the authenticity of one’s faith.
3. Salvation and Works
While faith is the key, the Bible also emphasizes that salvation involves repentance (Acts 2:38) and obedience to God's will, which can be seen in passages like:
Matthew 7:21: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Hebrews 5:9: "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him."
4. Conclusion
The Bible emphasizes faith as essential to salvation, but it also teaches that works (as evidence of genuine faith) and obedience to God are significant.
"Faith alone" is a theological position that has been historically debated, especially between the Protestant and Catholic traditions.
While Paul stresses salvation by faith over works of the law, James points out that true faith produces good works, making faith and works inseparable in the life of a believer.
J.
dwight92070
Well-known member
The truth is that requiring baptism and even confession in order to be saved puts a whole lot of people in very awkward, sometimes even impossible, situations.
God knew that long before we did, so He never required that to begin with. Leave it to legalistic, hypocritical, Judaizer-like people to create a NEW LAW that MUST be fulfilled in order to join their exclusive club of saved people. If you don't comply, they declare you UNSAVED. Cults always declare that if you don't agree with them, you are not saved.
The only thing God requires is an inward change-of-heart - a repentance- and a faith in the ONLY ONE who can save us - totally apart from any works performed by us.
God knew that long before we did, so He never required that to begin with. Leave it to legalistic, hypocritical, Judaizer-like people to create a NEW LAW that MUST be fulfilled in order to join their exclusive club of saved people. If you don't comply, they declare you UNSAVED. Cults always declare that if you don't agree with them, you are not saved.
The only thing God requires is an inward change-of-heart - a repentance- and a faith in the ONLY ONE who can save us - totally apart from any works performed by us.
dwight92070
Well-known member
dwight92070
Well-known member
Yes, the truth should be plain as the nose on your face. God said, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin and your will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." In other words "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved".
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Maybe that is something that we ought to leave up to God. I think He might be able to figure such things out and do the right thing.
Maybe you should follow your own advice.
Mark 16:16 never tells us what happens to people who believe but are not baptized.
But instead of leaving that up to God, you have to "help Him out" by telling us that such people are lost - not saved.
But that verse DOES NOT say that - you have no authority to suggest that it does.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe that is something that we ought to leave up to God. I think He might be able to figure such things out and do the right thing.
Maybe you should follow your own advice.
Mark 16:16 never tells us what happens to people who believe but are not baptized.
But instead of leaving that up to God, you have to "help Him out" by telling us that such people are lost - not saved.
But that verse DOES NOT say that - you have no authority to suggest that it does.
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