civic
Well-known member
yes if baptism was essential to having eternal life it sure is missing from 100's of passages.
Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation
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Doug Brents
Well-known member
The thief on the cross died under the Old Covenant. He was never subject to the New Covenant, and so is irrelevant to the discussion of how a NT Christ follower must be saved.
No, it is not. Rom 10:9-10 clearly places a physical action (confessing Jesus as Lord with the mouth) as a condition upon which the reception of salvation is based.
Again, no, it is not. Jesus' death is what makes salvation possible in the first place, and without it there would be no hope of Heaven for anyone. God has offered salvation to anyone and everyone, but only those who accept it on His terms will receive it. If you don't publicly and verbally confess Jesus as Lord then He will not confess you as His child at Judgement (you won't be saved) (Rom 10:9-10, Matt 10;32-33). If you do not repent of your sins then God will not forgive you (Acts 3:19). If you are not baptized (in water (1 Pet 3:21)) into Christ's death, then you do not die with Him (Rom 6:1-7), you are not raised with Him (Col 2:11-14), and you are not clothed with Him in righteousness and adopted as a child of God (Gal 3:26-27).
Not at all. If I purchase a Rolls Royce for you (pay all the fees you would ever pay and allow refueling for you for the rest of your life), but I tell you that you have to show up at a dealership right down the road from you to pick it up. Does you showing up in any way add to the cost I paid? No! It doesn't at all. But if you don't show up, you don't get to use the car.
What is faith? It is not a mental only process. Faith requires/demands/is dead and useless without action (Heb 11:1, James 2:14-26).
Yes, it can. It is during baptism (in water (1 Pet 3:21)) that we die to sin (Rom 6:1-7), that our sin is cut from us by the Holy Spirit (Col 2:11-14), that we are resurrected with Jesus by the power of His blood and the working of the Holy Spirit (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14), that we are clothed with Christ and adopted as children of God (Gal 3:26-27), that we are washed clean and spotless (Eph 5:26-27), that we enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5).
Read that passage again. Why is Paul glad that he did not baptize the people there? Because he did not want to be additional fuel for the divisiveness that was in that congregation at that time. They were arguing that some were better than others (more saved? more righteous?) because they had been baptized by Apollos, or Cephas (Peter), or whomever else. Paul is saying that it doesn't matter by whom you were baptized. What matters is into whose name you were baptized. Notice that Paul did baptize three people/families on his visit there. Why? Because those were the three people/families that believed the Gospel when he was first there. Others came to believe later when other ministers came to preach the Word. So as Paul says, he planted the Seed, Apollos and Peter and others watered the Seed, but it was God who gave the increase.
That is a faulty interpretation of Eph 2:8-9. Because Rom 10:9-10, as mentioned earlier, clearly makes a physical action a prerequisite for receiving salvation. So Eph 2:8-9 cannot mean that there is no human action that in necessary to receive salvation, because that would contradict Rom 10:9-10. What it means is that there is no way to EARN salvation. We don't deserve salvation, and we can never make ourselves deserve it. It is a gift from God to His faithful servants.
Look at Luke 17:7-10. The servant (us) does not deserve even a "thank you" from his master (God) for doing what is commanded of him. But he is not really a servant if he doesn't do what the master commands. Then he is good for nothing but to be thrown out.
A person is condemned already because of his sin. He just remains condemned if he does not believe (John 3:18). So we go back to the first half to see how do we get out of being condemned. And that requires belief AND baptism. And whether this was part of the inspired writing or not, it agrees with 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, John 3:5, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, Acts 22:16, Acts 8:36, Rom 6:1-7, and Col 2:11-14.
One who is not baptized doesn't really believe in the first place, so the concept of an unbaptized Christ follower is an oxymoron.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
No, it is not "missing", but is to be understood as being part of "believing"/having faith.
civic
Well-known member
There is no passage declaring baptism is believing
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Not as such, no. But there are many passages stating that salvation is received during baptism, and that baptism saves, and that we cannot enter into the Kingdom of God without baptism (water and Spirit, being washed with water by the Word, etc.). Believing is faith, and faith requires action, and there are three proscribed actions that lead to/result in receiving salvation.
MTMattie
Active member
There is no definitive passage that tells Jesus baptised anyone. Paul only baptized 3. So two extremely important people in the bible who taught salvation didn't.
Sorry that does not address the verse
Acts 16:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
There is no water there
Oh, but for you it is one action - water baptism
What of those who are water baptized but that is it.
Still think water baptism saves?
Sorry you are reading your thoughts into scripture and then projecting it on to others
Repentance is the flip side of faith
it does not help your water baptism is necessary for salvation view
If the bible states faith saves you cannot deny that without denying scripture
Sorry no
Christ baptizes with the spirit
and spirit baptism places one in the body of Christ
1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
faith, trust in Christ results in one sealed with the holy spirit
Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
this is before water
The only way you can hold your position is to deny scripture.
Yep those who hold otherwise have to ignore lots of scripture which show it is upon faith one is declared righteous, has his sins forgiven, is sealed, and saved
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
Only if you assume born of water refers to water baptism.
Tell me do you likewise assume born of the Spirit refers to the baptism of the Spirit
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Paul baptized many more than three. It lists only three persons/families that he baptized in 1 Cor 1, but he also baptized the Philippian Jailer and many others in his ministry. We know that the very early Church taught water baptism because Phillip taught the Ethiopian Eunuch about baptism and it was the Eunuch who asked to be baptized in Acts 8. Paul was baptized by Ananias so that his sins could be washed away (Acts 22:16). Peter says that baptism is what saves us (1 Pet 3:21). And there are many more references that link baptism and salvation.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
And then what did Paul do? He taught them the Gospel and then baptized them (in water) that very hour of the night.
If you don't repent, you cannot be forgiven, so if you don't repent but are baptized then you just got wet; it is worthless to you.
If you do not confess Jesus as Lord, but you repent and you get baptized, then you weren't baptized into Christ and you just got wet; it is worthless to you.
All three are required or there is a conflict in Scripture, and Scripture contains no conflicts.
If you accept that Biblical "belief" is not just the normal English "belief" but really means faith (which is belief in action), then yes, I would be guilty of "projecting". But since you continue to advocate "belief onlyism" I don't believe that you accept belief as meaning faith. And you have said before that you do not believe that faith requires action to be alive and effective, so we are back to "easy belief onlyism".
I do not deny that faith saves (Gal 2:16). But I also do not deny that baptism saves (1 Pet 3:21). So you would have us explain away Peter's statement and accept only Paul's. But both were authored by God, and so they both must be true or God is a liar (which we know He is not).
I have shown that I do not deny Scripture. I deny your misinterpretation of Scripture, but I uphold Scripture 100%. Spirit baptism occurs during water baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21). It is the Spirit who takes action, while we are buried in the water, to remove our sin and unite us with Jesus' death and resurrection. This is so clear in Scripture, and it is not hard to understand or accept.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
There doesn't have to be any assumption. 1 Pet 3:21 says that we are saved by water baptism. Jesus says that we cannot enter the Kingdom of God (receive salvation) except by being reborn of water and the Spirit. Rom 6:1-7 and Col 2:11-14 both say that we die to sin/have sin cut from us, and are reborn with Christ, when we are baptized (in water) where the Spirit resurrects us with Jesus. This doesn't take any assumption. It just takes opening your heart to the Spirit and letting Him reveal the connections between these verses.
Born of the Spirit refers to the Spirit's actions to resurrect us. This is not "baptism of the Spirit" (which in Scripture most always refers to receiving miraculous empowerment from the Spirit, not the indwelling). We are born of the Spirit while we are buried in water in baptism, for it is here that He resurrects us from our death in sin to new life in Christ.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
No, it does not take ignoring any Scripture. It takes understanding that faith is not a mental only concept. Faith REQUIRES action or it is dead and useless. Faith in a chair requires that you sit in it and take the weight off your feet. Faith in a ladder requires that you climb it. Faith in God requires that you surrender 100% to His will, and trust that He will forgive you if you do what He said will result if forgiveness: repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism in water (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, etc.).
Of course it does
There is no water here
1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
faith, trust in Christ results in one sealed with the holy spirit
Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
or here
John 3:15 (LEB) — 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.”
John 3:16 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.
John 5:24 (LEB) — 24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
John 6:40 (LEB) — 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks at the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:47 (LEB) — 47 Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.
Acts 16:31 (LEB) — 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”
Romans 10:9 (LEB) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10 (LEB) — 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Not one of your verses says one cannot be saved without water baptism
Actually it saves from a bad conscience
1 Peter 3:21 (LEB) — 21 And also, corresponding to this, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
There is no water in Rom 6 or Col 1
and when you state the baptism en the Spirit is only for miraculous power you ignore
1 Corinthians 12:13 (LEB) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free persons, and all were made to drink one Spirit.
and
Acts 11:13–18 (LEB) — 13 And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and summon Simon, who is also called Peter, 14 who will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?” 18 And when they heard these things, they became silent and praised God, saying, “Then God has granted the repentance leading to life to the Gentiles also!”
The Jews understood the import of that baptism far greater than you
So what. They were saved when they believed. Water baptism is a proper act for one saved, showing he has been cleansed from his sin
Except the many verses which note one is saved upon faith
Your theology must ignore that
MTMattie
Active member
I was thinking of this.... ! Cor 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
My error
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Tom, we have been over and over this. None of those verses need to say anything about water. I have shown many times that Scripture is very clear that the one baptism in the NT Church is water baptism. And that in several places Scripture says that we are saved during baptism by the working of the Holy Spirit who does so by the power of Jesus' blood. Since that is established, none of these other passages need do more than reference that fact by saying "believe" (which means to have faith).
Doug Brents
Well-known member
It does not saved "from a bad conscience". Baptism is an appeal to God to give us a new, clean conscience.
No, I do not ignore that passage. That passage corresponds directly to Rom 6 and Col 2 where it says that in baptism (in water) the Holy Spirit does the work of removing our sin and resurrecting us with Christ. So it is by one Spirit that we are made part of the one body during the one baptism (that must include water and human action), and it is in baptism that we drink of the one Spirit.
God told Cornelius that Peter would "speak words to you by which you will be saved". Was he save by just hearing the words? No.
Then the Holy Spirit fell on him in power. Was he saved just by the Holy Spirit giving him tongues and praise? No.
Then Peter ordered that he be baptized (in water) so that he could receive forgiveness of his sins and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Was he saved when he was baptized into Christ? YES! This is when he was saved, not before.
As Peter says in verse 18 above, God granted them "repentance leading to life". Repentance must be started before baptism, and it LEADS TO salvation, it does not follow after, and Cornelius had not yet repented when the Spirit fell on him in tongues and praise.
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