󠅤 The Lord sent Jesus Christ

[civic]

Prove Jesus is in the Godhead then. Book, chapter, verse please. I've never read anything like that in any Bible.

Easy Col 1:19 and 2:9.

next

 

[civic]

If a unitarian argument is unconvincing, I'm not sure how that is a win for the unitarian view. i was seeing if there was any insights or issues that might be worthwhile, but none were. I have noted there could be some way that the Trinitarian doctrine might not be complete enough but there seems no room in the discussion for that possibility

a uinitarian argument is just as valid as an atheist argument.

 

[mikesw]

I commend your patience, my friend. You have given @Runningman every opportunity to prove his case and he has failed miserably each and every time. You have the patience of Job, I unfortunately don't. Stay strong in the faith, my friend.

I'm spending too much time. It has been a good learning time about the Triune nature of God. I do not share much on that aspect but others (like civic) have shared a bunch. A big problem is of no consideration given to the ambiguity of Jesus with the Father in so many passages. Of course, some passages are too blatant for any unitarian to reasonably deny.

 

[civic]

I'm spending too much time. It has been a good learning time about the Triune nature of God. I do not share much on that aspect but others (like civic) have shared a bunch. A big problem is of no consideration given to the ambiguity of Jesus with the Father in so many passages. Of course, some passages are too blatant for any unitarian to reasonably deny.

Your steadfastness is appreciated brother

 

[Bassnah]

Jesus sent Jesus?

The concept of the Trinity is the belief that the one God, described in the Holy Bible, eternally exists in three Persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and that these three are one God, co-equal and co-eternal, having precisely the same nature and attributes, and worthy of precisely the same worship, confidence, and obedience. They are each individually detailed in Scripture, all exalted with the same power and holiness of our Creator.

 

[Runningman]

Aren't you brilliant? I have to add "Godhead" since you otherwise could leave the adoptionist idea that Jesus earned divinity. I do not want people assuming some misconstrued reading of adoptionism or other distortions.

Sure. Jesus became many things he previously was not, attained many things he didn't previously have, but never received the omnipotence of God. You're misunderstanding who he is.

Mark 10
40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

Matt 24
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Acts 1
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

 

[Runningman]

It never had to when God the Father, of Jesus did it for everyone to see,

Psalm 45:6-7
Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom. / You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you above your companions with the oil of joy.

Heb 1:8
NASB 1995
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

Does Jesus have a queen? The man in Psalm 45 has a queen. Original context doesn't transfer deity to Jesus in the way you're thinking because that king has a God himself.

and
Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names, / that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, / and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Question. If Jesus is God then why is he not said to be getting any glory when his name is bowed to?

and
Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen


Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.

Romans 9:5 in the KJV and RSV don't say Jesus is God.

Romans 9 (KJV)
5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 9 (RSV)
5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever.[a] Amen.

 

[Runningman]

You are so delusional it's hilarious!

Just in the Book of John, you have a whole chapter and multiple verses thar describe Jesus as God. John Chapter 1, John 8:24, John 8:58, John 20:28, etc.... Statements directly from Christ Himself declaring that he is "I Am". Crack open the Book of John and all your Unitarian delusions will immediately evaporate.

Jesus being God was known to the Apostles right off the bat (see John 1:1). To deny that is to live in a delusional unitarian fairy tale world.

There are nearly two dozen names and titles that Jesus doesn't share with God. I may open a thread on that later. YHWH, the I AM, The God of Abraham, God Almighty, King of kings and Lord of lords just to name a few. Acts 3:13 is abundantly clear that Jesus doesn't match who God is, contrary to your argument.

 

[Runningman]

Seems our trinitarian friends

Easy Col 1:19 and 2:9.

next

I said prove Jesus is IN the Godhead. You can't find that statement in the Bible. Imagine that no one who personally knew Jesus said the things you do. You don't find it odd that no one thought to talk about the things you do?

 

[mikesw]

a uinitarian argument is just as valid as an atheist argument.

i had meant to ask a friend about a book for arguing the trinity. I did not make that a priority this morning.

We have seen some details from runningman beyond the unitarian main issue. We see a push for adoptionism including of all people becoming "divine" rather than Christ in the Godhead. He believes all people become divine. He had some experience with what he says is God.

 

[Runningman]

The concept of the Trinity is the belief that the one God, described in the Holy Bible, eternally exists in three Persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and that these three are one God, co-equal and co-eternal, having precisely the same nature and attributes, and worthy of precisely the same worship, confidence, and obedience. They are each individually detailed in Scripture, all exalted with the same power and holiness of our Creator.

You're right. So God is in them and that makes them God? What about when God is in people?

 

[mikesw]

Sure. Jesus became many things he previously was not, attained many things he didn't previously have, but never received the omnipotence of God. You're misunderstanding who he is.

Mark 10
40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

Matt 24
36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Acts 1
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

okay. Maybe you can reflect on the pre-existence of Christ before he was born among humanity that can also explain these.

 

[Bassnah]

You're right. So God is in them and that makes them God? What about when God is in people?

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and that these three are one God. As Christians He dwells in us. Two different concepts.

2 Timothy 1:14
Verse Concepts
Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

Ephesians 2:22
Verse Concepts
in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Ephesians 3:17
Verse Concepts
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Colossians 1:27
Verse Concepts
to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Hebrews 3:6
Verse Concepts
but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

John 14:23
Verse Concepts
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Verse Concepts
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-Living-In-Us

 

[civic]

i had meant to ask a friend about a book for arguing the trinity. I did not make that a priority this morning.

We have seen some details from runningman beyond the unitarian main issue. We see a push for adoptionism including of all people becoming "divine" rather than Christ in the Godhead. He believes all people become divine. He had some experience with what he says is God.

We have the Holy Spirit in us but we are in no way, shape or form divine in the same way Christ is Divine. Mormons believe that nonsense.

 

[civic]

Seems our trinitarian friends

I said prove Jesus is IN the Godhead. You can't find that statement in the Bible. Imagine that no one who personally knew Jesus said the things you do. You don't find it odd that no one thought to talk about the things you do?

You can’t find the Father saying : I Am God.

Next fallacy

 

[Runningman]

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and that these three are one God. As Christians He dwells in us. Two different concepts.

2 Timothy 1:14
Verse Concepts
Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

Ephesians 2:22
Verse Concepts
in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Ephesians 3:17
Verse Concepts
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Colossians 1:27
Verse Concepts
to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Hebrews 3:6
Verse Concepts
but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

John 14:23
Verse Concepts
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Verse Concepts
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-Living-In-Us

I follow. So what if men like Jesus has God in him and other men like Peter or Thomas have God in them, too, and they are all one with God? Don't you see that Jesus has everything in common with his brothers in the Biblical narrative?

John 17
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

1 Cor. 3
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Matthew 12
18Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

 

[Runningman]

i had meant to ask a friend about a book for arguing the trinity. I did not make that a priority this morning.

We have seen some details from runningman beyond the unitarian main issue. We see a push for adoptionism including of all people becoming "divine" rather than Christ in the Godhead. He believes all people become divine. He had some experience with what he says is God.

I enjoyed The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict: Evidence I and II by Josh McDowell even though it has a lot of Trinitarian elements to it. Good read and thoughtful. I recommend this book because it's strictly an apologetics book. It mainly deals with how to argue your beliefs effectively. It covers a very wide variety of topics and scenarios against Muslims, Mormons, JWs, etc.

And the book just looks good. It's thick with 760 pages and gold colored.

 

[Runningman]

i had meant to ask a friend about a book for arguing the trinity. I did not make that a priority this morning.

We have seen some details from runningman beyond the unitarian main issue. We see a push for adoptionism including of all people becoming "divine" rather than Christ in the Godhead. He believes all people become divine. He had some experience with what he says is God.

Side note on the previously recommended book, the central focus isn't the Trinity but it does discuss a lot of historical evidences about it.

 

[MTMattie]

You are so delusional it's hilarious!

Just in the Book of John, you have a whole chapter and multiple verses thar describe Jesus as God. John Chapter 1, John 8:24, John 8:58, John 20:28, etc.... Statements directly from Christ Himself declaring that he is "I Am". Crack open the Book of John and all your Unitarian delusions will immediately evaporate.

Jesus being God was known to the Apostles right off the bat (see John 1:1). To deny that is to live in a delusional unitarian fairy tale world.

I am pretty well done with him... @Runningman. He will never read anything that offers an understandable explanation and for some reason he denies scriptures that show Jesus is God or the Trinity is mentioned.

When someone will deny what Elohim says that one is beyond help and proof that Mark 4:12
Mark 4:12
so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.’”

15 scripture throughout the bible say similar.

He simply does not understand these, if he even reads them

Psalm 45:6-7
Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom. / You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you above your companions with the oil of joy.

Heb 1:8
NASB 1995
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

and
Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names, / that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, / and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Runningman]

I am pretty well done with him... @Runningman. He will never read anything that offers an understandable explanation and for some reason he denies scriptures that show Jesus is God or the Trinity is mentioned.

When someone will deny what Elohim says that one is beyond help and proof that Mark 4:12
Mark 4:12
so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.’”

15 scripture throughout the bible say similar.

He simply does not understand these, if he even reads them

Psalm 45:6-7
Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom. / You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you above your companions with the oil of joy.

Heb 1:8
NASB 1995
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

and
Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names, / that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, / and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You're still imposing the trinity onto the Bible when it is never spoken of in the first place. If I can at least get you to understand this and nothing else then I would consider that a miracle. Do you at least agree the Bible doesn't mention or explain what the trinity is or give an example of it? If you can get past that first hurdle then you'll be able to understand how none of the verses you allege refer to "Jesus as God" don't mean what you say they do in their contexts.

For example, in Psalm 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8, the original context is regarding a human with a queen. It says it right there. Read the whole chapter of Psalm 45 to see who it's talking about. It is not a messianic prophecy, but rather an unrelated verse that was transferred to Jesus when originally it was not about Jesus. It was about a man with a God who needed to be elevated above his companions. God doesn't need to be elevated above His companions because He is already above all. Right?

Phil. 2:9-11 only mentions the Father as being God. Doesn't it?