Your Views on The Trinity

[Peterlag]

Jesus is now both Lord and Christ (Acts 10:36; Romans 10:12), and the very essence of “lordship” is being in charge and running things. That is why the Greek word for “Lord” was used for rulers, landowners, and heads of households. Jesus is Lord because he is God’s “right-hand man” and is directly in charge of the Church. To be able to do that job, God gave him all authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18). In order for Jesus to be our “Lord” in any meaningful sense of the word, we have to be able to communicate with him and ask him for stuff. And this is why it is written that we should have “fellowship” with him “…and indeed, our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ” (1 John 1:3). The word “fellowship” in the Greek is [koinōnia] and it is used in several different ways in the New Testament. Fundamentally, it refers to a close association involving mutual interests and sharing; a close relationship characterized by involvement and sharing (Acts 2:42; 1 John 1:3).

 

[Runningman]

We already know that Jesus came in the form of a man given authority by the Father. There is no problem with Jesus being the Son of God, as an expression of his divinity in the Godhead, while speaking like this. And again you miss John 17:5 that speaks of the glory he had with the Father before the world existed. That is the obvious type of thing you miss and leaves your arguments insufficient. I have not heard how you explain away verse 5.

Unlinkely to refer to a literal pre-existence since people pre-existing their birth isn't really a Biblical concept. Jesus said, "now, Father, glorify me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed." Then after that he said he gave that glory to his disciples in John 17:22.

The question is, what is the glory Jesus was speaking of specifically? If the crucifixion, he wasn't literally crucified before the world existed. If the resurrection, he still wasn't resurrected before the world existed. Yet this is something he could give to his disciples. Know what it is? Jesus said this prayer leading right up to his death. I believe what he gave his disciples was his life. He died for them and that was Jesus' glory and purpose as the Messiah. That's why I know John 17:5 isn't about Jesus literally pre-existing.

The basic aspect of faith also is that people are called to trust the message through the Son. He hardly shared that he was the Messiah because he was not having people follow him according to the flesh. If they realized he was of the Godhead, they would follow all the more strongly in recognizing his divinity. At the same time, others would still kill him for blasphemy for claiming the things only God can do. But, in his wisdom he prevented this from happening too early. And they did not care what the implications were of killing the Son of God.

Jesus did directly and explicitly claim or affirm that he is the Messiah on more than one occasion. Maybe Jesus didn't claim to be God because he isn't? Maybe he said the Father is the only true God because He is? I don't look for ways to explain anything he said away. I believe Jesus told us what we need to know and took out the guess work. He would have surely mentioned a Trinity God if that was what he wanted his disciples to know about.

 

[mikesw]

Unlinkely to refer to a literal pre-existence since people pre-existing their birth isn't really a Biblical concept. Jesus said, "now, Father, glorify me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed." Then after that he said he gave that glory to his disciples in John 17:22.

you use a metaphysical argument generalized about people to deny what scriptures say about the Son of God. You deny the preexistence of Christ in accord with scripture because of your preference for your own perception instead of letting scripture inform you. Your metaphysical premise instead should tell you that his preexistence indicates he was not mere man but actually born of God and having attributes of his Father.
That is the same thing atheist do to deny the existence of God overall and to deny miracles can happen.

The question is, what is the glory Jesus was speaking of specifically? If the crucifixion, he wasn't literally crucified before the world existed. If the resurrection, he still wasn't resurrected before the world existed. Yet this is something he could give to his disciples. Know what it is? Jesus said this prayer leading right up to his death. I believe what he gave his disciples was his life. He died for them and that was Jesus' glory and purpose as the Messiah. That's why I know John 17:5 isn't about Jesus literally pre-existing.

Perfect example of the hyper-literalist. Jesus can speak, as many prophets have, of a future event in present tense. His death was about to happen so it is not improper to put it in the present tense. Your skepticism has led you down a dead-end

Jesus did directly and explicitly claim or affirm that he is the Messiah on more than one occasion. Maybe Jesus didn't claim to be God because he isn't? Maybe he said the Father is the only true God because He is? I don't look for ways to explain anything he said away. I believe Jesus told us what we need to know and took out the guess work. He would have surely mentioned a Trinity God if that was what he wanted his disciples to know about.

Maybe you just do not read the passages properly due to your extreme pessimistic skepticism
I cannot expect God to have written the scriptures someway different just because some of you would stumble from what is shared.

 

[mikesw]

Another obvious testimony to the divinity of Christ is in Matthew 4:1–4 (NKJV)
1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry.
3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

Satan knew of the claim of Jesus's divinity and thus tempted Jesus to command stones to become bread. Satan would only tempt Jesus this way if Satan knew of Jesus beforehand and recognized even the glory Jesus still had in his incarnation.

There are far too many passages to share. And more become apparent unless a person seeks to deny the divinity of Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

Unlinkely to refer to a literal pre-existence since people pre-existing their birth isn't really a Biblical concept. Jesus said, "now, Father, glorify me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed." Then after that he said he gave that glory to his disciples in John 17:22.

The question is, what is the glory Jesus was speaking of specifically? If the crucifixion, he wasn't literally crucified before the world existed. If the resurrection, he still wasn't resurrected before the world existed. Yet this is something he could give to his disciples. Know what it is? Jesus said this prayer leading right up to his death. I believe what he gave his disciples was his life. He died for them and that was Jesus' glory and purpose as the Messiah. That's why I know John 17:5 isn't about Jesus literally pre-existing.

Jesus did directly and explicitly claim or affirm that he is the Messiah on more than one occasion. Maybe Jesus didn't claim to be God because he isn't? Maybe he said the Father is the only true God because He is? I don't look for ways to explain anything he said away. I believe Jesus told us what we need to know and took out the guess work. He would have surely mentioned a Trinity God if that was what he wanted his disciples to know about.

I spent 3 hours putting this together just tonight and thought I would give it to you. Enjoy.

Jesus spent time telling his disciples about the new relationship he would have with them after he would be resurrected (John 14:1-4, 18, 28; 16:5-7, 16). For example, he told them they could ask him for things, that he would not leave them as orphans, and he would now call them “friends” not servants. One of the clearest points of Scripture that supports prayer to Jesus is John 14:14. Jesus taught “If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.” The manuscript evidence supports the word “me” in John 14:14 being in the original text. Modern textual scholars have concluded that scribes left the word "me" out of the text or changed “me” to “the Father" and this explains why “me” is not in the King James Version because the manuscripts used in making the King James did not have the “me” in it. However, the weight of the manuscript evidence supports the word “me” being original, which is why almost all modern versions include it. Jesus telling his disciples that they could ask him for anything after his resurrection certainly fits with the scope of Scripture, since Jesus knew that he was about to be given great authority as the Son of God. Jesus telling his disciples they could ask him for things after his ascension is clearly seen in both Acts and the Epistles.

Another reason to pray to Jesus is because he's now both Lord and Christ (Acts 10:36; Romans 10:12), and the very essence of “lordship” is being in charge and running things. That is why the Greek word for “Lord” was used for rulers, landowners, and heads of households. Jesus is Lord because he is God’s “right-hand man” and is directly in charge of the Church. To be able to do that job, God gave him all authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18). In order for Jesus to be our “Lord” in any meaningful sense of the word, we have to be able to communicate with him and ask him for stuff. And this is why it is written that we should have “fellowship” with him “…and indeed, our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ” (1 John 1:3). The word “fellowship” in the Greek is [koinōnia] and it is used in several different ways in the New Testament. Fundamentally, it refers to a close association involving mutual interests and sharing; a close relationship characterized by involvement and sharing (Acts 2:42; 1 John 1:3).

When it comes to the fellowship that people have with one another [koinōnia] has sometimes been defined as “full sharing” which has been more fully explained as “intimate joint participation.” In the Scriptures where people “fellowship” with each other, we can sometimes clearly see there is intimate joint participation. For example, in Acts 2:42, the people were meeting together, eating together, praying together, giving their possessions to one another, and following the apostles’ teaching. In a similar vein, Galatians 2:9 says that James, Peter, and John extended the “right hand of fellowship” to Barnabas and Paul, meaning they jointly and fully shared things among themselves. Also, 1 John 1:3 shows that John told the disciples all about Jesus so they could have “fellowship” intimate joint participation with John and the other apostles who had seen the Lord. In contrast, light has no “fellowship” with darkness because there is no intimate joint participation (2 Cor. 6:14).

Fellowshiping with Jesus Christ deals with “knowing” him (Philippians 3:8, 10). In Philippians, Paul wrote about knowing Jesus, and there is a huge difference between “knowing about” Jesus and actually knowing him. Paul did not just want to “know about” Jesus. In fact, he said he counted any position he could claim in the world to be just dung compared to knowing Christ. Really knowing someone involves personally interacting with the person. In fact, it's difficult to imagine how we could really “know” Christ without personal interaction with him. Christians can personally interact with Jesus, which is often via the gift of the holy spirit, and part of that interaction certainly includes feeling free to ask him for stuff when we need it.

Jesus told his followers they are his “friends” [philos] (John 15:13-15). He emphasizes his point by saying that slaves and servants do not know what the Lord does, but friends do. What Jesus said has huge implications for Christians, because Jesus is opening the door for us to be “friends” with him. One of the hallmarks of genuine friendship is that we can ask friends for things. It's quite inconceivable that Jesus would say that those disciples who followed him would be his “friends” but could not be in touch with him. Regular and intimate communication is part of friendship. It makes perfect sense that we can ask our Lord, Head, Shepherd, and Friend, for whatever we need.

 

[mikesw]

I spent 3 hours putting this together just tonight and thought I would give it to you. Enjoy.

Jesus spent time telling his disciples about the new relationship he would have with them after he would be resurrected (John 14:1-4, 18, 28; 16:5-7, 16). For example, he told them they could ask him for things, that he would not leave them as orphans, and he would now call them “friends” not servants. One of the clearest points of Scripture that supports prayer to Jesus is John 14:14. Jesus taught “If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.” The manuscript evidence supports the word “me” in John 14:14 being in the original text. Modern textual scholars have concluded that scribes left the word "me" out of the text or changed “me” to “the Father" and this explains why “me” is not in the King James Version because the manuscripts used in making the King James did not have the “me” in it. However, the weight of the manuscript evidence supports the word “me” being original, which is why almost all modern versions include it. Jesus telling his disciples that they could ask him for anything after his resurrection certainly fits with the scope of Scripture, since Jesus knew that he was about to be given great authority as the Son of God. Jesus telling his disciples they could ask him for things after his ascension is clearly seen in both Acts and the Epistles.

Another reason to pray to Jesus is because he's now both Lord and Christ (Acts 10:36; Romans 10:12), and the very essence of “lordship” is being in charge and running things. That is why the Greek word for “Lord” was used for rulers, landowners, and heads of households. Jesus is Lord because he is God’s “right-hand man” and is directly in charge of the Church. To be able to do that job, God gave him all authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18). In order for Jesus to be our “Lord” in any meaningful sense of the word, we have to be able to communicate with him and ask him for stuff. And this is why it is written that we should have “fellowship” with him “…and indeed, our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ” (1 John 1:3). The word “fellowship” in the Greek is [koinōnia] and it is used in several different ways in the New Testament. Fundamentally, it refers to a close association involving mutual interests and sharing; a close relationship characterized by involvement and sharing (Acts 2:42; 1 John 1:3).

When it comes to the fellowship that people have with one another [koinōnia] has sometimes been defined as “full sharing” which has been more fully explained as “intimate joint participation.” In the Scriptures where people “fellowship” with each other, we can sometimes clearly see there is intimate joint participation. For example, in Acts 2:42, the people were meeting together, eating together, praying together, giving their possessions to one another, and following the apostles’ teaching. In a similar vein, Galatians 2:9 says that James, Peter, and John extended the “right hand of fellowship” to Barnabas and Paul, meaning they jointly and fully shared things among themselves. Also, 1 John 1:3 shows that John told the disciples all about Jesus so they could have “fellowship” intimate joint participation with John and the other apostles who had seen the Lord. In contrast, light has no “fellowship” with darkness because there is no intimate joint participation (2 Cor. 6:14).

Fellowshiping with Jesus Christ deals with “knowing” him (Philippians 3:8, 10). In Philippians, Paul wrote about knowing Jesus, and there is a huge difference between “knowing about” Jesus and actually knowing him. Paul did not just want to “know about” Jesus. In fact, he said he counted any position he could claim in the world to be just dung compared to knowing Christ. Really knowing someone involves personally interacting with the person. In fact, it's difficult to imagine how we could really “know” Christ without personal interaction with him. Christians can personally interact with Jesus, which is often via the gift of the holy spirit, and part of that interaction certainly includes feeling free to ask him for stuff when we need it.

Jesus told his followers they are his “friends” [philos] (John 15:13-15). He emphasizes his point by saying that slaves and servants do not know what the Lord does, but friends do. What Jesus said has huge implications for Christians, because Jesus is opening the door for us to be “friends” with him. One of the hallmarks of genuine friendship is that we can ask friends for things. It's quite inconceivable that Jesus would say that those disciples who followed him would be his “friends” but could not be in touch with him. Regular and intimate communication is part of friendship. It makes perfect sense that we can ask our Lord, Head, Shepherd, and Friend, for whatever we need.

One of the biggest reasons for the fellowship and power to grant them these things is that Jesus in his divinity is able to do this for all who call upon him.

 

[Runningman]

you use a metaphysical argument generalized about people to deny what scriptures say about the Son of God. You deny the preexistence of Christ in accord with scripture because of your preference for your own perception instead of letting scripture inform you. Your metaphysical premise instead should tell you that his preexistence indicates he was not mere man but actually born of God and having attributes of his Father.
That is the same thing atheist do to deny the existence of God overall and to deny miracles can happen.

This is not a metaphysical argument. The matter of humans not literally not pre-existing their physical life is fully supported by Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. The Bible says Jesus is a human. The Bible says the Son of God is a human. The Bible also says other Sons of God are human. The Bible also says other Sons of God are sent by God. None of them pre-existed. Why do you make a special exception for Jesus?

Please show the Old Testament passage where Jesus is saying or doing anything before he was born.

Perfect example of the hyper-literalist. Jesus can speak, as many prophets have, of a future event in present tense. His death was about to happen so it is not improper to put it in the present tense. Your skepticism has led you down a dead-end

Literalism is consistent with the context. Did Jesus literally get crucified, literally die, and literally get resurrected? I am waiting for your answer.

Maybe you just do not read the passages properly due to your extreme pessimistic skepticism
I cannot expect God to have written the scriptures someway different just because some of you would stumble from what is shared.

I am not pessimistic or skeptical. So far you have not provided a scriptural rebuttal, but rather an opinion-filled hit piece that does nothing to undo what the Bible says.

Let me ask you, what exactly is the glory that Jesus had with the Only True God before the world existed?

 

[mikesw]

This is not a metaphysical argument. The matter of humans not literally not pre-existing their physical life is fully supported by Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. The Bible says Jesus is a human. The Bible says the Son of God is a human. The Bible also says other Sons of God are human. The Bible also says other Sons of God are sent by God. None of them pre-existed. Why do you make a special exception for Jesus?

I make an exception for Jesus since scripture speaks of him existing before Abraham. I allow for miracles because they show an exception to natural laws that are done by prophets and the Messiah. I do not reject these miracles just because typical people do not do them.

Please show the Old Testament passage where Jesus is saying or doing anything before he was born.

That is a stupid question in that you refer to him as Jesus anachronistically. That is like saying "you cannot say Barbara Bush never went to High School since we cannot find the name Barbara Bush in the 1942 high school year book." You are suffering from the hyper-literalist concept of Jesus as a name of the Son of God before the incarnation. Jesus notes that he exists before Abraham was born.

Literalism is consistent with the context. Did Jesus literally get crucified, literally die, and literally get resurrected? I am waiting for your answer.

Like I said. You suffer from hyper-literalism. You emphasize John 17:3 while rejecting verse 5. So your interpretation of John 17:3 is used to interpret every other verse that contradicts your view.

I am not pessimistic or skeptical. So far you have not provided a scriptural rebuttal, but rather an opinion-filled hit piece that does nothing to undo what the Bible says.

Let me ask you, what exactly is the glory that Jesus had with the Only True God before the world existed?

Uh. This means that the Son of God had to exist to create the world or be there before the world existed. I'm not sure why that literal sense escapes you, except that you seek to deny the broad testimony of scripture.

 

[Runningman]

I spent 3 hours putting this together just tonight and thought I would give it to you. Enjoy.

Jesus spent time telling his disciples about the new relationship he would have with them after he would be resurrected (John 14:1-4, 18, 28; 16:5-7, 16). For example, he told them they could ask him for things, that he would not leave them as orphans, and he would now call them “friends” not servants. One of the clearest points of Scripture that supports prayer to Jesus is John 14:14. Jesus taught “If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.” The manuscript evidence supports the word “me” in John 14:14 being in the original text. Modern textual scholars have concluded that scribes left the word "me" out of the text or changed “me” to “the Father" and this explains why “me” is not in the King James Version because the manuscripts used in making the King James did not have the “me” in it. However, the weight of the manuscript evidence supports the word “me” being original, which is why almost all modern versions include it. Jesus telling his disciples that they could ask him for anything after his resurrection certainly fits with the scope of Scripture, since Jesus knew that he was about to be given great authority as the Son of God. Jesus telling his disciples they could ask him for things after his ascension is clearly seen in both Acts and the Epistles.

Another reason to pray to Jesus is because he's now both Lord and Christ (Acts 10:36; Romans 10:12), and the very essence of “lordship” is being in charge and running things. That is why the Greek word for “Lord” was used for rulers, landowners, and heads of households. Jesus is Lord because he is God’s “right-hand man” and is directly in charge of the Church. To be able to do that job, God gave him all authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18). In order for Jesus to be our “Lord” in any meaningful sense of the word, we have to be able to communicate with him and ask him for stuff. And this is why it is written that we should have “fellowship” with him “…and indeed, our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ” (1 John 1:3). The word “fellowship” in the Greek is [koinōnia] and it is used in several different ways in the New Testament. Fundamentally, it refers to a close association involving mutual interests and sharing; a close relationship characterized by involvement and sharing (Acts 2:42; 1 John 1:3).

When it comes to the fellowship that people have with one another [koinōnia] has sometimes been defined as “full sharing” which has been more fully explained as “intimate joint participation.” In the Scriptures where people “fellowship” with each other, we can sometimes clearly see there is intimate joint participation. For example, in Acts 2:42, the people were meeting together, eating together, praying together, giving their possessions to one another, and following the apostles’ teaching. In a similar vein, Galatians 2:9 says that James, Peter, and John extended the “right hand of fellowship” to Barnabas and Paul, meaning they jointly and fully shared things among themselves. Also, 1 John 1:3 shows that John told the disciples all about Jesus so they could have “fellowship” intimate joint participation with John and the other apostles who had seen the Lord. In contrast, light has no “fellowship” with darkness because there is no intimate joint participation (2 Cor. 6:14).

Fellowshiping with Jesus Christ deals with “knowing” him (Philippians 3:8, 10). In Philippians, Paul wrote about knowing Jesus, and there is a huge difference between “knowing about” Jesus and actually knowing him. Paul did not just want to “know about” Jesus. In fact, he said he counted any position he could claim in the world to be just dung compared to knowing Christ. Really knowing someone involves personally interacting with the person. In fact, it's difficult to imagine how we could really “know” Christ without personal interaction with him. Christians can personally interact with Jesus, which is often via the gift of the holy spirit, and part of that interaction certainly includes feeling free to ask him for stuff when we need it.

Jesus told his followers they are his “friends” [philos] (John 15:13-15). He emphasizes his point by saying that slaves and servants do not know what the Lord does, but friends do. What Jesus said has huge implications for Christians, because Jesus is opening the door for us to be “friends” with him. One of the hallmarks of genuine friendship is that we can ask friends for things. It's quite inconceivable that Jesus would say that those disciples who followed him would be his “friends” but could not be in touch with him. Regular and intimate communication is part of friendship. It makes perfect sense that we can ask our Lord, Head, Shepherd, and Friend, for whatever we need.

I'm going to read this here in about 30 minutes.

 

[Runningman]

I make an exception for Jesus since scripture speaks of him existing before Abraham. I allow for miracles because they show an exception to natural laws that are done by prophets and the Messiah. I do not reject these miracles just because typical people do not do them.

This is a pretty bold claim. Please show where Jesus existed before Abraham.

That is a stupid question in that you refer to him as Jesus anachronistically. That is like saying "you cannot say Barbara Bush never went to High School since we cannot find the name Barbara Bush in the 1942 high school year book." You are suffering from the hyper-literalist concept of Jesus as a name of the Son of God before the incarnation. Jesus notes that he exists before Abraham was born.

If you can't show Jesus existing before he was born then stop making the stupid claim that he existed before he was born.

Like I said. You suffer from hyper-literalism. You emphasize John 17:3 while rejecting verse 5. So your interpretation of John 17:3 is used to interpret every other verse that contradicts your view.

You got it backwards, i,e,. you say Jesus pre-existed because of John 17:5 and then fail to produce any Scriptural examples of him pre-existing. I say Jesus didn't literally pre-exist because there is no examples of such. What I have is called proper
Biblical exegesis and follows precedent rather than the abrupt introduction of human pre-existence that you seem to espouse.

What you are using is a classic strawman argument. What you are arguing for simply doesn't exist.

Uh. This means that the Son of God had to exist to create the world or be there before the world existed. I'm not sure why that literal sense escapes you, except that you seek to deny the broad testimony of scripture.

The glory Jesus had before the world was created was given to his disciples in John 17:22. Jesus didn't give creation of the world to the disciples. That glory Jesus had before the world existed was something he did on earth. Jesus didn't literally do what he did on earth before earth existed. See why Jesus pre-existing isn't literal?

 

[mikesw]

This is a pretty bold claim. Please show where Jesus existed before Abraham.

If you can't show Jesus existing before he was born then stop making the stupid claim that he existed before he was born.

You are trying to load the language or you are not able to grasp the meaning of the verse that Jesus says "before Abraham was I am." At best you try to twist the meaning away from what Jesus said.

You got it backwards, i,e,. you say Jesus pre-existed because of John 17:5 and then fail to produce any Scriptural examples of him pre-existing. I say Jesus didn't literally pre-exist because there is no examples of such. What I have is called proper
Biblical exegesis and follows precedent rather than the abrupt introduction of human pre-existence that you seem to espouse.

You are showing the loaded language of using the name "Jesus" before the incarnation. You use that to deny that the Son of God existed before being in the flesh. I do not care what you call your proper Biblical exegesis because whatever you have tried to do fails miserably.

What you are using is a classic strawman argument. What you are arguing for simply doesn't exist.

The glory Jesus had before the world was created was given to his disciples in John 17:22. Jesus didn't give creation of the world to the disciples. That glory Jesus had before the world existed was something he did on earth. Jesus didn't literally do what he did on earth before earth existed. See why Jesus pre-existing isn't literal?

Jesus gave it to them from what he provides and what he had before the world existed. You mix up too many things and get confused. They got the glory at this moment or they had received it while being with Jesus. So your confusion begins with your misunderstanding of John 17:5. I'm starting to see how you get confused.

 

[Peterlag]

I'm going to read this here in about 30 minutes.

If you like it or plan to keep it or share it. Then use this one... the latest edited.

If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it

Jesus spent time telling his disciples about the new relationship he would have with them after he would be resurrected (John 14:1-4, 18, 28; 16:5-7, 16). For example, he told them they could ask him for things, that he would not leave them as orphans, and he would now call them “friends” not servants. One of the clearest points of Scripture that supports prayer to Jesus is John14:14. Jesus taught “If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.”The manuscript evidence supports the word “me” in John 14:14 being in the original text. Modern textual scholars have concluded that scribes left the word "me" out of the text or changed “me” to “the Father" and this explains why “me” is not in the King James Version because the manuscripts used in making the King James did not have the word “me” in it. However, the weight of the manuscript evidence supports the word “me” being original, which is why almost all modern versions include it. Jesus telling his disciples that they could ask him for anything after his resurrection certainly fits with the scope of Scripture, since Jesus knew that he was about to be given great authority as the Son of God. Jesus telling his disciples they could ask him for things after his ascension is clearly seen in both Acts and the Epistles.

Another reason to pray to Jesus is because he's now both Lord and Christ (Acts 10:36; Romans 10:12), and the very essence of “lordship” is being in charge and running things. That is why the Greek word for “Lord” was used for rulers, landowners, and heads of households. Jesus is Lord because he is God’s “right-hand man” and is directly in charge of the Church. To be able to do that job, God gave him all authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew28:18). In order for Jesus to be our “Lord” in any meaningful sense of the word, we have to be able to communicate with him and ask him for stuff. And this is why it is written that we should have “fellowship” with him “…and indeed, our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ” (1 John1:3). The word "fellowship” in the Greek is [koinōnia] and it's used in several different ways in the New Testament. Fundamentally, it refers to a close association involving mutual interests and sharing; a close relationship characterized by involvement and sharing (Acts 2:42; 1 John 1:3).

Jesus told his followers they are his “friends” [philos] (John 15:13-15). He emphasizes his point by saying that slaves and servants do not know what the Lord does, but friends do. What Jesus said has huge implications for Christians, because Jesus has opened the door for us to be “friends” with him. One of the hallmarks of genuine friendship is that we can ask friends for things. It's quite inconceivable that Jesus would say that those disciples who followed him would be his “friends” but could not be in touch with him. Regular and intimate communication is part of friendship, and it makes perfect sense that we can ask our Lord, Head, Shepherd, and Friend, for whatever we need.

The Greek word [koinōnia] translated into English as "fellowship" has sometimes been defined as “full sharing” which has been more fully explained as “intimate joint participation.” In the Scriptures where people “fellowship” with each other, we can sometimes clearly see there is intimate joint participation. For example, in Acts 2:42, the people were meeting together, eating together, praying together, giving their possessions to one another, and following the apostles’ teaching. In a similar vein, Galatians 2:9 says that James, Peter, and John extended the “right hand of fellowship” to Barnabas and Paul, meaning they jointly and fully shared things among themselves. Also, 1 John 1:3 shows that John told the disciples all about Jesus so they could have “fellowship” intimate joint participation with John and the other apostles who had seen the Lord. In contrast, light has no “fellowship” with darkness because there's no intimate joint participation (2 Cor.6:14).

Fellowshiping with Jesus Christ deals with “knowing” him (Philippians 3:8, 10). In Philippians, Paul wrote about knowing Jesus, and there is a huge difference between “knowing about” Jesus and actually knowing him. Paul did not just want to “know about” Jesus. In fact, he said he counted any position he could claim in the world to be just dung compared to knowing Christ. Really knowing someone involves personally interacting with the person. In fact, it's difficult to imagine how we could really “know” Christ without personal interaction with him. Christians can personally interact with the Lord Jesus Christ, via the gift of the holy spirit, and part of that interaction certainly includes feeling free to ask him for stuff.

 

[mikesw]

bump

Another obvious testimony to the divinity of Christ is in Matthew 4:1–4 (NKJV)
1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry.
3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

Satan knew of the claim of Jesus's divinity and thus tempted Jesus to command stones to become bread. Satan would only tempt Jesus this way if Satan knew of Jesus beforehand and recognized even the glory Jesus still had in his incarnation.

There are far too many passages to share. And more become apparent unless a person seeks to deny the divinity of Christ.

 

[Runningman]

If you like it or plan to keep it or share it. Then use this one... the latest edited.

If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it

Jesus spent time telling his disciples about the new relationship he would have with them after he would be resurrected (John 14:1-4, 18, 28; 16:5-7, 16). For example, he told them they could ask him for things, that he would not leave them as orphans, and he would now call them “friends” not servants. One of the clearest points of Scripture that supports prayer to Jesus is John14:14. Jesus taught “If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.”The manuscript evidence supports the word “me” in John 14:14 being in the original text. Modern textual scholars have concluded that scribes left the word "me" out of the text or changed “me” to “the Father" and this explains why “me” is not in the King James Version because the manuscripts used in making the King James did not have the word “me” in it. However, the weight of the manuscript evidence supports the word “me” being original, which is why almost all modern versions include it. Jesus telling his disciples that they could ask him for anything after his resurrection certainly fits with the scope of Scripture, since Jesus knew that he was about to be given great authority as the Son of God. Jesus telling his disciples they could ask him for things after his ascension is clearly seen in both Acts and the Epistles.

Another reason to pray to Jesus is because he's now both Lord and Christ (Acts 10:36; Romans 10:12), and the very essence of “lordship” is being in charge and running things. That is why the Greek word for “Lord” was used for rulers, landowners, and heads of households. Jesus is Lord because he is God’s “right-hand man” and is directly in charge of the Church. To be able to do that job, God gave him all authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew28:18). In order for Jesus to be our “Lord” in any meaningful sense of the word, we have to be able to communicate with him and ask him for stuff. And this is why it is written that we should have “fellowship” with him “…and indeed, our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ” (1 John1:3). The word "fellowship” in the Greek is [koinōnia] and it's used in several different ways in the New Testament. Fundamentally, it refers to a close association involving mutual interests and sharing; a close relationship characterized by involvement and sharing (Acts 2:42; 1 John 1:3).

Jesus told his followers they are his “friends” [philos] (John 15:13-15). He emphasizes his point by saying that slaves and servants do not know what the Lord does, but friends do. What Jesus said has huge implications for Christians, because Jesus has opened the door for us to be “friends” with him. One of the hallmarks of genuine friendship is that we can ask friends for things. It's quite inconceivable that Jesus would say that those disciples who followed him would be his “friends” but could not be in touch with him. Regular and intimate communication is part of friendship, and it makes perfect sense that we can ask our Lord, Head, Shepherd, and Friend, for whatever we need.

The Greek word [koinōnia] translated into English as "fellowship" has sometimes been defined as “full sharing” which has been more fully explained as “intimate joint participation.” In the Scriptures where people “fellowship” with each other, we can sometimes clearly see there is intimate joint participation. For example, in Acts 2:42, the people were meeting together, eating together, praying together, giving their possessions to one another, and following the apostles’ teaching. In a similar vein, Galatians 2:9 says that James, Peter, and John extended the “right hand of fellowship” to Barnabas and Paul, meaning they jointly and fully shared things among themselves. Also, 1 John 1:3 shows that John told the disciples all about Jesus so they could have “fellowship” intimate joint participation with John and the other apostles who had seen the Lord. In contrast, light has no “fellowship” with darkness because there's no intimate joint participation (2 Cor.6:14).

Fellowshiping with Jesus Christ deals with “knowing” him (Philippians 3:8, 10). In Philippians, Paul wrote about knowing Jesus, and there is a huge difference between “knowing about” Jesus and actually knowing him. Paul did not just want to “know about” Jesus. In fact, he said he counted any position he could claim in the world to be just dung compared to knowing Christ. Really knowing someone involves personally interacting with the person. In fact, it's difficult to imagine how we could really “know” Christ without personal interaction with him. Christians can personally interact with the Lord Jesus Christ, via the gift of the holy spirit, and part of that interaction certainly includes feeling free to ask him for stuff.

It's very well written and thoughtful. While all praying is essentially communicating, all communicating isn't essentially prayer. Different ideas regarding speaking to Jesus, who needs to be informed about what his disciples need since he isn't omniscient, and the Father who already knows what we need before we ask. This is why the Bible never teaches to pray to Jesus, but is explcit about praying to the Father. I believe they just didn't want to give anyone the idea that Jesus is the same as God. One is worshipped and prayed to, the other is not.

 

[mikesw]

This is a pretty bold claim. Please show where Jesus existed before Abraham.

If you can't show Jesus existing before he was born then stop making the stupid claim that he existed before he was born.

I am posting a clip of the discussion just to help orient where my point fits in.

To be a little clearer, I think it helps for me to share a bit of my metaphysical concept. I indeed agree that people do not have preexistence -- that their identity or soul comes into existence at roughly the time of their conception (for a close-enough timing to facilitate the discussion). With Christ Jesus, he has pre-existence as the divinity in the Godhead. The Spirit and Most High overshadows Mary that starts conception. In this process, instead of a new identity and soul, the incarnation of the divine Son is the basis of Jesus' identity and existence.
I may not even match other people's concept of what happens here. But this may be helpful for the discussion -- and not really to be addressed as right or wrong -- but just to identify where there can be some overlap between runningman's view and what I'm sharing.

Anyhow, the big reason for the virgin birth is that the child is conceived by God and of the incarnation. This was not even recognized by the public until after Jesus' resurrection (especially only recognized after the gospels were shared). Jesus's brothers and sisters maybe did not even realize the virgin birth. It's significance is then in his uniqueness and divinity.

 

[Runningman]

You are trying to load the language or you are not able to grasp the meaning of the verse that Jesus says "before Abraham was I am." At best you try to twist the meaning away from what Jesus said.

You are showing the loaded language of using the name "Jesus" before the incarnation. You use that to deny that the Son of God existed before being in the flesh. I do not care what you call your proper Biblical exegesis because whatever you have tried to do fails miserably.

Provided there are no examples of Jesus in the Old Testament existing before Abraham and Jesus not literally pre-existing before the world was created per John 17:5 and Revelation 13:8, then the only sense in which Jesus existed before Abraham was in prophecy as the human messiah. Your opinions are severely lacking in Biblical support which is why they are not convincing. If you had even one clear example of Jesus doing anything before he was born then we probably would not need to talk about this at all.

Jesus gave it to them from what he provides and what he had before the world existed. You mix up too many things and get confused. They got the glory at this moment or they had received it while being with Jesus. So your confusion begins with your misunderstanding of John 17:5. I'm starting to see how you get confused.

Jesus' glory before the world existed was being crucified, but it hadn't actually happened yet.

Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

 

[mikesw]

Provided there are no examples of Jesus in the Old Testament existing before Abraham and Jesus not literally pre-existing before the world was created per John 17:5 and Revelation 13:8, then the only sense in which Jesus existed before Abraham was in prophecy as the human messiah. Your opinions are severely lacking in Biblical support which is why they are not convincing. If you had even one clear example of Jesus doing anything before he was born then we probably would not need to talk about this at all.

Jesus' glory before the world existed was being crucified, but it hadn't actually happened yet.

Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Another passage describes him as the rock.
1 Corinthians 10:4 (NRSV)
4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

You really are neglectful of the testimony of scripture unless you want to call Jesus, Paul and the other writers as liars. I do not understand how you neglect the passages that I have shared. You neglect all the evidence of multiple persons called Yahweh in the OT --- where the Angel of the Lord speaks and the saint then has said that Yahweh spoke. If no evidence is sufficient, there is no reason to share with you scriptures.

Your denials challenge your reliability in interpreting scriptures. I become like a fool trying to give you evidence of your mistaken beliefs.

 

[Runningman]

Another passage describes him as the rock.
1 Corinthians 10:4 (NRSV)
4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

You really are neglectful of the testimony of scripture unless you want to call Jesus, Paul and the other writers as liars. I do not understand how you neglect the passages that I have shared. You neglect all the evidence of multiple persons called Yahweh in the OT --- where the Angel of the Lord speaks and the saint then has said that Yahweh spoke. If no evidence is sufficient, there is no reason to share with you scriptures.

Your denials challenge your reliability in interpreting scriptures. I become like a fool trying to give you evidence of your mistaken beliefs.

The literal rock that had literal water was spiritual in the sense it was foreshadowing of Jesus. No literally Jesus. That's why Paul is saying it's a spiritual rock, not actually Jesus pre-existing in the Old Testament. Flip back to the Old Testamnet, no Jesus anywhere. Again your argument is not convincing.

 

[mikesw]

The literal rock that had literal water was spiritual in the sense it was foreshadowing of Jesus. No literally Jesus. That's why Paul is saying it's a spiritual rock, not actually Jesus pre-existing in the Old Testament. Flip back to the Old Testamnet, no Jesus anywhere. Again your argument is not convincing.

That is quite a desperate attempt to deny the meaning of the text. You are getting good at that. I bet you got help from a fanatic on that one. You were disappeared for quite awhile. Like I said it is foolish for me to share scripture with you just so you can dig your hole deeper.
How were the Israel people in Exodus supposed to recognize that this speaks of Jesus? I do not see how you propose they drank of the spiritual rock that is Christ if Christ were not there, nor how that would help those in Corinth. I figure you skip the meaning to the Corinthians to misinterpret your text to deny Christ's presence in the Exodus.

 

[Runningman]

That is quite a desperate attempt to deny the meaning of the text. You are getting good at that. I bet you got help from a fanatic on that one. You were disappeared for quite awhile. Like I said it is foolish for me to share scripture with you just so you can dig your hole deeper.
How were the Israel people in Exodus supposed to recognize that this speaks of Jesus? I do not see how you propose they drank of the spiritual rock that is Christ if Christ were not there, nor how that would help those in Corinth.

Deny the words of the text when flipping back to the Old Testament? Okay, please show me the words from the text in the Old Testament where Jesus Christ is there since you put it that way.