FreeInChrist
Active Member
Who was the Word and how does he enter into this picture of who came first?
The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning
- Thread starter Runningman
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FreeInChrist
Active Member
So the angels were born. The Holy Spirit was born and The Word was born.
The Word was born before He became Jesus.
Good to know.
civic
Active Member
Sorry God did not create google
Actually only a fool would argue against God based upon google
John 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 20:28 (NASB 95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Hebrews 1:8 (NASB 95) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Titus 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
2 Pet 1:1Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
Philippians 2:5–6 (NASB 95) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB 95) — 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
1 John 5:20 (NASB 95) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Hebrews 1:3 (NASB 95) — 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Revelation 1:8 (NASB 95) — 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Doug Brents
Active Member
Thank you for your opinion. But seeing as how all of those passage (John 1:1, John 8:58, Col 1:15-17, John 17:5, 1 Cor 10:4, Mic 5:2) state that Jesus, the Messiah, the Savior, existed before He was born, before the world was created, was responsible for creating all that is, etc., your opinion is wrong.
Peterlag
Active Member
Where does John 8:58 say Jesus is God?
John 8:58...
Jesus said "ego eimi" .... God didn't. The Greek word in Exodus 3:14 is not the same word Jesus used in John 8:58. Jesus said “ego eimi” in John 8:58. Not “ego eimi ho eimi” which means "I am the One who is" as Exodus 3:14 is written in the Septuagint. The two statements are very different. The Greek phrase in John does mean "I am" which was a common phrase in the New Testament and isn't the name of anyone. The disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ at the last supper. They said literally "Not I am, Lord" Matthew 26:22, 25. No one would say the disciples were trying to deny they were God because they were using the phrase "not I am." The word "I am" was a common way of designating oneself and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. The statement Jesus made in John 8:58 concerning "I am" would have to be equivalent with God's "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14 in order for the Trinitarian argument to make Jesus God. And it is not. The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham that Jesus must be God. Jesus figuratively existed in Abraham's time. He did not actually physically exist as a person, but rather he existed in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man.
Here's a few examples if you would enjoy reading more...
So, they said to him “Who are you?”
Matthew 14:27
But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying Be of good cheer; it is I; {ego eimi} be not afraid.
And who did they identify him as - God? NOPE.
And those in the boat worshiped him, saying "Truly, you are the Son of God."
Who is Jesus identifying as? The Son of God.
Mark 14:61,62
But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
And Jesus said, “I am, {ego eimi}
Who is Jesus identifying as? The Messiah, the Son of the Blessed.
John 4:26
Jesus said unto her, “I that speak unto thee am he, {ego eimi}.
Who is Jesus identifying as? The Messiah.
John 9:9
Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. {ego eimi}
Who is the blind man identifying as? The one who was healed.
Acts 10:21
Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he {ego eimi}
Who did Peter identify as? The one they were looking for.
"I am" - {ego eimi} is not a NAME. Yahweh is the God of Israel's name.
{ego eimi} - I am - is just a response of self-identification.
The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...
1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.
And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.
Peterlag
Active Member
God created Math and Science that folks who understand Math and Science have listed at Google saying that something cannot be 100 percent of two different things. Only a fool would refuse to see Math and Science because I said it or because it's stated on the Internet.
Peterlag
Active Member
Are we talking about humans who were born or are we talking about cars and trucks and everything else under the sun? No cars were not born and neither were angels.
Doug Brents
Active Member
We have already been through this. Exodus was written in Hebrew and John was written in Greek. Of course they didn't use the same words. But in the Greek translation of Exodus, the translator did use the same word as was written by John.
Again, you are only looking at half of this verse. In the first half of the verse, you are correct, God said, "ego eimi ho eimi". But in the second half of the verse He said, "Tell them "I AM" (ego eimi) has sent you." You seem to be the one who is only taking pieces of Scripture that fit your internal monologue.
God made it a name when He told Moses to tell Israel that is who sent him. And Jesus uses it in the same way when He addressed the Pharisees in the Temple.
This is the word of God
Those who believe in God believe his word, not the word of man
John 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 20:28 (NASB 95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Hebrews 1:8 (NASB 95) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Titus 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
2 Pet 1:1Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
Philippians 2:5–6 (NASB 95) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB 95) — 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
1 John 5:20 (NASB 95) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Hebrews 1:3 (NASB 95) — 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Revelation 1:8 (NASB 95) — 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
as a result
John 5:38 (NASB 95) — 38 You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
Peterlag
Active Member
Math and Science that God created is not the word of men.
Peterlag
Active Member
Again...
So, they said to him “Who are you?”
Matthew 14:27
But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying Be of good cheer; it is I; {ego eimi} be not afraid.
And who did they identify him as - God? NOPE.
And those in the boat worshiped him, saying "Truly, you are the Son of God."
Who is Jesus identifying as? The Son of God.
Mark 14:61,62
But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
And Jesus said, “I am, {ego eimi}
Who is Jesus identifying as? The Messiah, the Son of the Blessed.
John 4:26
Jesus said unto her, “I that speak unto thee am he, {ego eimi}.
Who is Jesus identifying as? The Messiah.
John 9:9
Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he. {ego eimi}
Who is the blind man identifying as? The one who was healed.
Acts 10:21
Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he {ego eimi}
Who did Peter identify as? The one they were looking for.
"I am" - {ego eimi} is not a NAME. Yahweh is the God of Israel's name.
{ego eimi} - I am - is just a response of self-identification.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Again, all of that is irrelevant. All of those uses of "I am..." have qualifiers: I am (your master), I am (who you are talking about), I am (the one speaking), I am (the one you are looking for), etc. But when "I AM!" is used without modifier or qualifier (as only God can do (and Jesus since He is God), it becomes a name. In the same way as you would use the word "word" as the name of a particular word: it ceases to be a general thing, and becomes a specific name of the word in question.
This is of God
This is the word of God
Those who believe in God believe his word, not the word of man
John 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 20:28 (NASB 95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Hebrews 1:8 (NASB 95) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Titus 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
2 Pet 1:1Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
Philippians 2:5–6 (NASB 95) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB 95) — 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
1 John 5:20 (NASB 95) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Hebrews 1:3 (NASB 95) — 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Revelation 1:8 (NASB 95) — 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
as a result
John 5:38 (NASB 95) — 38 You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
Peterlag
Active Member
Men quoting the truth of God's Word does not then become the word of men. Everyone in the world knows Math and Science has been created by God. If you don't know that then I can't help you.
Peterlag
Active Member
The Greek phrase in John does mean "I am" which was a common phrase in the New Testament and isn't the name of anyone.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Again, your opinion is noted. But since it disagrees with the way Jesus used it, and since the way He used it agrees with the rest of Scripture demonstrating His deity, your opinion will be ignored.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Greek doesn’t have theological capitalization. The issue isn’t whether ἐγώ εἰμι is printed in caps—it’s whether Jesus used it the way God used it. And in John 8:58, He unmistakably did.
Alter2Ego
Active Member
TomL:
None of the scriptures you posted at Post 896 provide evidence that Jesus is equal to Jehovah God. I will break it down for you with the first scripture.
You are focussed on the twisted reasoning of the rebellious Jews who had already rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Notice Jesus' response to these rebellious Jews who were putting THEIR OWN MEANING to what Jesus said. I will quote the context that you DELIBERATELY ignored. Focus on the words below that are bolded in red.
John 5:5
But one man was there who had been sick for 38 years.John 5:6
Seeing this man lying there and being aware that he had already been sick for a long time, Jesus said to him: “Do you want to get well?”John 5:7
The sick man answered him: “Sir, I do not have anyone to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, but while I am on my way, another steps down ahead of me.”John 5:8
Jesus said to him: “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.”John 5:9
And the man immediately got well, and he picked up his mat and began to walk. That day was the Sabbath.John 5:10
So the Jews began to say to the cured man: “It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to carry the mat.”John 5:11
But he answered them: “The same one who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’”John 5:12
They asked him: “Who is the man who told you, ‘Pick it up and walk’?”John 5:13
But the healed man did not know who he was, for Jesus had slipped away into the crowd that was there.John 5:14
After this Jesus found him in the temple and said to him: “See, you have become well. Do not sin anymore, so that something worse does not happen to you.”John 5:15
The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.John 5:16
For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things during the Sabbath.John 5:17
But he answered them: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.”John 5:18
This is why the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.Notice how Jesus tried to correct their twisted reasoning (which you have now latched onto in your attempt at proving Christendom's 3-prong god). I will bold the important words in enlarged blue.
John 5:19
Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner.John 5:30
I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.TomL: Below are four TRUE or FALSE questions. You are ONLY to respond to each question as either TRUE or FALSE. If you include anything other than TRUE or FALSE, you are out of here. There are also four YES or NO questions where you will have the opportunity to expression your opinion.
QUESTION #1 to TomL: At no time in the above scriptural quotation did Jesus himself say he was God. TRUE or FALSE?
QUESTION #2 to TomL: At John 5:19--after the rebellious Jews claimed Jesus was making himself equal to God, simply by Jesus telling them God is his Father--Jesus made it clear there was no equality by stating: "the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing." TRUE or FALSE?
QUESTION #3 to TomL: At John 5:30, Jesus again said: "I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative." TRUE or FALSE?
QUESTION #4 to TomL: At John 5:30, Jesus said: "I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me." TRUE or FALSE?
QUESTION #5 to TomL: Can someone who cannot do a single thing of his own initiative but has to wait for instructions from someone else be considered to be on equal levels with that other person (as opposed to being subordinate to the person from whom he awaits instructions)? YES or NO? (If you answer is "YES," explain your reasoning.)
QUESTION #6 to TomL: Can someone who cannot do a single thing of his own initiative but has to wait for instructions from someone else also be combined into one entity with the person from who he awaits instructions because they are both equal? YES or NO? (If you answer is "YES," explain your reasoning.)
QUESTION #7 to TomL: Can someone who has a different will but has to submit to the will of another person be considered to be equal to the very person to whom he must submit? YES or NO? (If you answer is "YES," explain your reasoning.)
TomL: Below is a verse of scripture followed by a bonus question.
"But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (Matthew 6:6 -- Berean Standard Bible)
QUESTION #8 to TomL: According to Matthew 6:6, Jehovah God is everyone's Father. YES or NO? (If you answer is "NO," explain your reasoning.)
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Peterlag
Active Member
Even if he did and I'm wrong. That is still not a teaching on the doctrine of the trinity. It's just once again one of those bits and pieces of words and half verses along with your own human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions as you pick one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here, and a clue there.
