IF HIS predestination was based upon HIS promises to favour faith and to banish those who rejected HIM by faith, then there was a reasonable cause for HIS predeterminism of the lives of those sinners sent to earth. That is, if our predetermined lives were based upon our free will choices, what is wrong with that as it does not cause damnation for no reason which is quite objectionable.
Will Babies that die go to Heaven?
- Thread starter Aeliana
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civic
Well-known member
If God has predetermined every movement of every molecule, every thought, action and deed along with every persons destination planned before creation then that is the very definition of a narcissistic god who is unloving and a control freak. The fact God has a free will and created man in His image and likeness with the ability to love Him in return " Freely " shows that He is not the above mentioned things some teach. He seeks a relationship with man, robots who are controlled have no thoughts or relationship. That is the difference in a nutshell.
All the Sons of GOD were there, singing HIS praises for this proof of HIS Divinity and eternal power, Job 38:7 and Rom 1:18-20.
...but infants die by the command of GOD and death is the wages for sin. The sin of the infant must have been by their free will to cause guilt so death proves they were sinners already in the womb which implies a life before conception as a spirit waiting to be sown and born into the world, Matt 13:36-39.
civic
Well-known member
You will have a hard time proving that from verses in the bible with infants. David said he would see his child in heaven and he died as a result of David's own sin.
IF EVERYONE CHOSE THEIR OWN FATE pre-election, then HIS determination of that fate in our lives is a perfect thing for HIM to do, to fulfill our fates as we chose. Determinism did not cause our FATE, it only predicted our LIVES HE designed to fulfill the fates we chose!! What's wrong with that?
Can we fault HIM for fulfilling our previous choice of our eternal relationship with HIM, ie, our self chosen fate in HIS reality? Should we fault HIM for determining our LIVES to fulfill our free will choices to either marry HIM in heaven or to live forever without HIM?
It does not say his son was sinless. It may imply that David knew his son was elect and so destined to heaven or that he hoped the child was elect with a fervor that could have him speak like he did.
The baby died for his own sin as so many verses tell us and which you listed but also in the context of David's sin to bring David to his knees, one of the harsh chastisements to bring a sinner to righteousness, Heb 12:5-11, while saving the baby from a long life of suffering.
David did not cause the baby's death by his own sin but GOD used the timing of the baby's self earned death for its sin to coincide with David's need for a harsh lesson in kingship in GOD's kingdom.
Lily
Active member
God allows all babies into heaven, that’s just grace.”
If it's true that little children are fallen, sinful, guilty and depraved and die with no spiritual merit and are doomed for eternity in hell, what would make me believe that God would welcome them into His kingdom with Him for eternity? Why are they welcomed by God into glory. On what basis? Solely by God’s grace! His Mercy! His nature! His love!
How were you or any other person saved? By law? Or by grace? None of us had any more to do with regard to the accomplishment of our own salvation than the youngest and most helpless infant. We all have been saved by grace. Jesus did it all by hanging dead on a cross and coming out of a tomb alive. The price has already been paid. Jesus conquered sin and death.
Jesus said, “Unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 18:3).
Little children already fit the requirements for going to heaven that Jesus gave. Little children have no problem loving Jesus. I first met Jesus when I was 4 years old and I immediately fell in love with Him. I didn't need to be converted because I wasn't tainted by the world yet.
None of us are capable of saving our own souls. We each must come as a little child—totally dependent upon God’s grace—if we are to receive the free gift of mercy and forgiveness made possible by the death of Jesus Christ and His resurrection.
If it's true that little children are fallen, sinful, guilty and depraved and die with no spiritual merit and are doomed for eternity in hell, what would make me believe that God would welcome them into His kingdom with Him for eternity? Why are they welcomed by God into glory. On what basis? Solely by God’s grace! His Mercy! His nature! His love!
How were you or any other person saved? By law? Or by grace? None of us had any more to do with regard to the accomplishment of our own salvation than the youngest and most helpless infant. We all have been saved by grace. Jesus did it all by hanging dead on a cross and coming out of a tomb alive. The price has already been paid. Jesus conquered sin and death.
Jesus said, “Unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 18:3).
Little children already fit the requirements for going to heaven that Jesus gave. Little children have no problem loving Jesus. I first met Jesus when I was 4 years old and I immediately fell in love with Him. I didn't need to be converted because I wasn't tainted by the world yet.
None of us are capable of saving our own souls. We each must come as a little child—totally dependent upon God’s grace—if we are to receive the free gift of mercy and forgiveness made possible by the death of Jesus Christ and His resurrection.
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civic
Well-known member
The bible doesn't say he died for his own sin but it does say God took the baby because of David's sin.
‘Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’ This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel. . . . The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die’” (2 Samuel 12:10–14).
Azriel
Well-known member
Correct!
The salvation of every person is initiated by God through grace, based upon no merit whatsoever in the individual sinner. None of us deserves salvation—which means there is nothing we can do to earn, win, achieve, or otherwise attain salvation based upon our own merit, intelligence, good works, rational intellectual argument, religious or denominational affiliation, or family heritage.
We can do nothing by any means to save ourselves. Salvation has nothing to do with our initiative or accomplishment. Salvation is all by grace. There is no clearer manifestation of this truth than the gift of eternal life given to a helpless, infant. The saving grace given to an infant who has no part whatsoever in his or her salvation is a perfect example of salvation, which is always given by God through grace.
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
And, don't forget the Very Next verse?:
Rom 7:9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when
the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."
Thus, All "babies, 'alive Without the Law,' go to heaven."
Amen. ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ And Thank God For All These:
This last sentence contradicts the first sentence hence my contending your theology is a house divided...
Frank Russell
Well-known member
I recall Solomon writing on that matter, (dogs) though what he said appeared to be in favor (due to common perception) - he was really saying that we don't know if one soul goes up and the other down, and saying we do is vanity.
And as I suggested, this happened to the baby, not as dying for his father's sin but as a chastisement to David for his own sin. The son does NOT die for the sins of his father (Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.) but a child might die to reprove the father for the sins he has been secretly indulging in, just like David, and the wording would sound very similar.
The father sinned therefore the innocent child must die. WRONG. Blasphemes GOD's goodness and loving kindness.
The child is a sinner and liable to die. The father sins and the time of the child's righteous death for his own sin is set in the context of the father's sin to reprove the father publically for his sin. ImCo...
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Since we are a under the law at conception and all are sinners at conception it is implied that the only time we could have been alive without the law is before HE gave HIS creation the call to faith with the promise of election for those who chose to put their faith in HIM and HIS warning of hell for any who might, by faith (ie, without proof) rebuke HIM as a liar and a false god, that is, before the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power were made evident by the creation of the physical universe before everyone's very eyes.
Azriel
Well-known member
look at the whole post, there are no contradicts.
Azriel
Well-known member
Exactly what law are we under at conception? The moral law? How can an infant possibly be held accountable to the moral law?
Everyone conceived as a sinner is under the law of death... what suggests otherwise?
They can be held accountable for the sin they did before being sown into a human body...Matt 13:36-39.
Azriel
Well-known member
Suggest otherwise?.... hmm...That would be Paul in chapter 8 vs. 2 in The Book of Romans
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Nope - we're born with a HUMAN NATURE same as Adam was created with and Jesus had (since HE was tempted in every respect AS WE ARE). And just like Adam, and Jesus we are effected by "temptation" as outlined in James 1:12-16.
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