Will Babies that die go to Heaven?

[jeremiah1five]

All the Sons of GOD were there, singing HIS praises for this proof of HIS Divinity and eternal power, Job 38:7 and Rom 1:18-20.

Great. Now who are the sons of God?
Please don't say angels because angels are a creation of God and share no paternity with God unlike the Only Begotten Son.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Nope - we're born with a HUMAN NATURE same as Adam was created with and Jesus had (since HE was tempted in every respect AS WE ARE). And just like Adam, and Jesus we are effected by "temptation" as outlined in James 1:12-16.

Yes, both Adam and Christ have a human nature, but Christ was not created, and Adam was.
And anything God creates will fall short of His glory for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE. The only Person who can stand before a Holy God blameless is the Holy Son.
Adam and the woman could not. They were created of the earth earthy and fallen short of the glory of God. The word for that is Greek "harmatia" and it means "missing the mark."
What is the "mark?"
The glory of God, or the glory that is God.
The KJV translators translate the word as "sin."

And I agree. Jesus was tempted as follows:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14.

Since the Logos is beyond temptation it was the human nature of Christ that was tested.

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Mt 4:1.

Since the human nature of Jesus Christ was under the temptation and James says that "every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust" it seems clear to me that Jesus Himself knew who He was and after 40 days of fasting He was hungry. I've fasted more than one day and after the first day of a fast hunger was the last thing I experienced. But still the Scripture says He was hungered. So, the human part could have turned the stones into bread, but Christ overruled that possible urge.
Then Jesus travels back into the city and goes to the pinnacle of the Temple and could have thrown Himself down from there but again the Christ overruled that urge.
Now, we can never understand what it may be like to have two natures in one person, so the next temptation is curious. But as a matter of biblical fact and truth the word "devil" in these temptations is an 'adjective' not a noun or pronoun. So, there is no external influence involved in these temptations.
To be tempted as we are Jesus would have to experience what we go through when we are tempted as James says "of our own lust" so there was no external influence going on with Jesus nor with ourselves when we are tested.

But as I said above man was created 'sinful' which is the reason why he sinned.
That's basically it. And since Adam and the woman all mankind is born with a sin nature.
Sin comes from sinner. And it originates in man.

 

[Handaan]

If we understand that God by His nature is a Savior, is it not the truest expression of God’s heart that He chooses to save infants? How could we believe that God weeps over the lost and pleads with willful sinners to be reconciled to Him if He throws millions upon millions of innocent babies into hell before they even reach a state of moral culpability—before they have the ability to make any moral distinction between good and evil?

PAUL, AN apostle (special messenger) of Christ Jesus by appointment and command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus (the Messiah), our Hope, 1 Timothy 1:1

With a view to this we toil and strive, [yes and] suffer reproach, because we have [fixed our] hope on the living God, Who is the Savior (Preserver, Maintainer, Deliverer) of all men, especially of those who believe (trust in, rely on, and adhere to Him). 1 Timothy 4:10

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Yes, both Adam and Christ have a human nature, but Christ was not created, and Adam was.
And anything God creates will fall short of His glory for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE. The only Person who can stand before a Holy God blameless is the Holy Son.

Accurate as far as it goes.

Adam and the woman could not. They were created of the earth earthy and fallen short of the glory of God.

Inaccurate. they didn't "Fall short" until later.

And I agree. Jesus was tempted as follows:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14.

Since the Logos is beyond temptation it was the human nature of Christ that was tested.

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Mt 4:1.

Since the human nature of Jesus Christ was under the temptation and James says that "every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust" it seems clear to me that Jesus Himself knew who He was and after 40 days of fasting He was hungry. So, the human part could have turned the stones into bread

Nope the "Human part couldn't do Anything. Jesus did what HE did in God's power through him - same as us.

, but Christ overruled that possible urge.

Because God had sent him there specifically TO FAST and to be BE TESTED. Jesus didn't let the temptation "Conceive" and birth sinful actions.

Then Jesus travels back into the city and goes to the pinnacle of the Temple and could have thrown Himself down from there but again the Christ overruled that urge.

Because god didn't want Jesus to "Prove" who He was by that demonstration - i.e. not by "Sight", but by FAITH.

Now, we can never understand what it may be like to have two natures in one person, so the next temptation is curious. But as a matter of biblical fact and truth the word "devil" in these temptations is an 'adjective' not a noun or pronoun. So, there is no external influence involved in these temptations.

Chuckle!!! Your phony "interpretation" is getting in the way of the obvious truth.

To be tempted as we are Jesus would have to experience what we go through when we are tempted as James says "of our own lust" so there was no external influence going on with Jesus nor with ourselves when we are tested.

SO where does the "Enticement" come from. no question but that the initial motivation is INTERNAL, but your claim that there's no "Enticement", or that satan didn't "Entice" Jesus (even though we have his words to Jesus) is scripturally FALSE. YOUR OWN CITE (Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Mt 4:1) indicates the involvement of satan.

But as I said above man was created 'sinful' which is the reason why he sinned.

Don't be ridiculous!!! Adam and Eve fell exactly according to the passage YOU QUOTED in James. Adam wasn't created "Sinful", he SINNED, and Died spiritually at that point. Adam was created with a HUMAN NATURE, and he responded to the temptation, and satan's enticement, exactly like you do, "Sinful nature" is nothing but a silly Paradigmatic "Theological construct". Nothing more.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Accurate as far as it goes.
Inaccurate. they didn't "Fall short" until later.

Above you agree with me that there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE but cannot see the creation of man as fallen short of His glory?

"There is only ONE God."
Adam was not God and possessed NONE of God's Nature or Deific Attributes.
Result: He is fallen short of God's glory.

"There is NONE like Him."
Result: Since the above is true then Adam was fallen short of God's glory.

He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Holiness, Righteousness, Sinlessness, are all the Nature and Attributes of God as well as everything that God is, Self-Existent, Omniscient, Ominpresent, Omnipotent, etc. These are all the glory of God, or the glory that is God. Since God gives none of that in the creation of the man then the man is created fallen short of God's glory.
The word for that is "sin" ["missing the mark"]
What is that mark?
The glory of God.
God is the standard by which everything and everyone is judged against and the ONLY Person that can stand before a Holy God blameless is a Holy Son.
Even if God created Adam holy, he would still fall short of God's glory for he would have to possess all Deific Attributes and Nature of God else he would fall short of God's glory.
This is not difficult to reason out to understand.

Nope the "Human part couldn't do Anything. Jesus did what HE did in God's power through him - same as us.

Jesus had two natures. We cannot even begin to imagine what that entails. But one thing is clear regarding temptation and that is that temptation is internal not external:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14.

Scripture also says Jesus was tempted in every way as we are. If His temptation is external by virtue of His Person, then this violates James 1:14. IF we are tempted by external influence then this also violates James 1:14. Jesus' temptation as Scripture reveals was tempted from within as we are. Jesus knew who He was. It was the human aspect of His Person that was tempted not the Logos.

Because God had sent him there specifically TO FAST and to be BE TESTED. Jesus didn't let the temptation "Conceive" and birth sinful actions.

I agree. But He was still tempted, and temptation is from within.

Because god didn't want Jesus to "Prove" who He was by that demonstration - i.e. not by "Sight", but by FAITH.

Faith is both sight and faith. Israel walked by sight when following the cloud of smoke by day and pillar of fire by night. There is no difference with believers today. Dreams and visions are by sight. We first must see these apparitions before we can move in them by faith/trust. We also observe situations and receive guidance in and through what we may see.

Chuckle!!! Your phony "interpretation" is getting in the way of the obvious truth.

Two apostles of the Jews and pillars of the Church say the angels that sinned are locked up. So, you'll have to reconsider what you believe about "demons" and "evil spirits." These are the attitudes of the mind. You can't see them, but you can feel them, and they are at times powerful enough to set the course of your life.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 2:4.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 6.

And the precedent:

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Is 14:15.

SO where does the "Enticement" come from. no question but that the initial motivation is INTERNAL, but your claim that there's no "Enticement", or that satan didn't "Entice" Jesus (even though we have his words to Jesus) is scripturally FALSE. YOUR OWN CITE (Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Mt 4:1) indicates the involvement of satan.

Is the word "devil" an adjective or a noun or personal pronoun?
It's an adjective and it means "traducer" which means "liar" and "false accuser" or "one who impugns the character of another."
If you want to believe Jesus was tempted by an angel named "Satan" then you contradict Peter and Jude who say under inspiration of the Holy Spirit the angels that sinned are locked up.

Don't be ridiculous!!! Adam and Eve fell exactly according to the passage YOU QUOTED in James. Adam wasn't created "Sinful", he SINNED, and Died spiritually at that point. Adam was created with a HUMAN NATURE, and he responded to the temptation, and satan's enticement, exactly like you do, "Sinful nature" is nothing but a silly Paradigmatic "Theological construct". Nothing more.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

Clearly Scripture declares that wickedness comes from the wicked. This is the same as saying sin comes from sinner. Man was created fallen short of the glory of God. The word for that is "sin."

 

[Clay]

Scripture teaches that we are saved by grace, but we are damned by works of the flash. Scripture teaches that eternal punishment is the wage due those who have willfully sinned. Nowhere in the Bible is anyone ever threatened with hell merely for the guilt inherited from Adam. Instead, whenever Scripture describes the inhabitants of hell, the stress is on their willful acts of sin and rebellion. Scripture always connects eternal condemnation with works of unrighteousness—willful sin.

Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,
10 Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God. 1 Co 6:9–10.

19 Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,
20 Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
21 Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Ga 5:19–21

For be sure of this: that no person practicing sexual vice or impurity in thought or in life, or one who is covetous [who has lustful desire for the property of others and is greedy for gain]—for he [in effect] is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Eph 5:5.

6 It is on account of these [very sins] that the [holy] anger of God is ever coming upon the sons of disobedience (those who are obstinately opposed to the divine will) Col 3:6

But as for the cowards and the ignoble and the contemptible and the cravenly lacking in courage and the cowardly submissive, and as for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd and adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters (those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God) and all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)—[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death Rev 21:8

[But] without are the dogs and those who practice sorceries (magic arts) and impurity [the lewd, adulterers] and the murderers and idolaters and everyone who loves and deals in falsehood (untruth, error, deception, cheating). Rev 22:15

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Above you agree with me that there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE but cannot see the creation of man as fallen short of His glory?

"There is only ONE God."
Adam was not God and possessed NONE of God's Nature or Deific Attributes.
Result: He is fallen short of God's glory.

After He SINNED, and died spiritually as God said he would.

I agree. But He was still tempted, and temptation is from within.

And "Enticement" is from without

Faith is both sight and faith. Israel walked by sight when following the cloud of smoke by day and pillar of fire by night. There is no difference with believers today. Dreams and visions are by sight. We first must see these apparitions before we can move in them by faith/trust.

False. there's NO NEED to "See" anything. faith comes by way of God's WOrd to YOU (Rom 10:17

We also observe situations and receive guidance in and through what we may see.

Two apostles of the Jews and pillars of the Church say the angels that sinned are locked up. So, you'll have to reconsider what you believe about "demons" and "evil spirits." These are the attitudes of the mind.

False. Demons are all around us, there ARE "angels that are locked up, but the demonic is free to deceive, and tempt.

 

[Anja]

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness” (Rom. 1:18).

Divine judgment comes upon those who suppress the truth—who turn away from and deny the power of the truth of God in their lives and pursue the lies of the devil. In suppressing the truth and pursuing lies, they yield to the temptations of the devil to do evil, which may take any number of forms of rebellion and disbelief.

Infants and unborn babies Do not possess the ability practice any of the above. Therefore they are not held accountable. They go to heaven.

 

[Maurice]

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness” (Rom. 1:18).

Divine judgment comes upon those who suppress the truth—who turn away from and deny the power of the truth of God in their lives and pursue the lies of the devil. In suppressing the truth and pursuing lies, they yield to the temptations of the devil to do evil, which may take any number of forms of rebellion and disbelief.

Infants and unborn babies Do not possess the ability practice any of the above. Therefore they are not held accountable. They go to heaven.

Oh on top of that the apostle Paul wrote “Although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened” (Rom. 1:21).

The beginning chapter of Romans makes it very clear that God reveals Himself to all people in sufficient measure to make His power, His moral government, and something of His glory obvious—through conscience, and through the light of nature. No person has an acceptable excuse for failing to perceive and understand the invisible attributes of God.

No infant suppresses the truth. A young child has no ability to perceive what God has revealed and made manifest and then reject it. Young children are not “futile in their thoughts.” They have no awareness of the things God has revealed and, therefore, they can neither cry out to God nor turn away from Him. They have no accountability.

 

[civic]

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness” (Rom. 1:18).

Divine judgment comes upon those who suppress the truth—who turn away from and deny the power of the truth of God in their lives and pursue the lies of the devil. In suppressing the truth and pursuing lies, they yield to the temptations of the devil to do evil, which may take any number of forms of rebellion and disbelief.

Infants and unborn babies Do not possess the ability practice any of the above. Therefore they are not held accountable. They go to heaven.

Exactly they don’t even know right from wrong lol

 

[Maurice]

Exactly they don’t even know right from wrong lol

It's really not that hard to understand is it? I guess it's just easier for people to believe that Adam ate the apple and now all unborn babies and infants that die go to hell.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Scripture teaches that we are saved by grace, but we are damned by works of the flash. Scripture teaches that eternal punishment is the wage due those who have willfully sinned. Nowhere in the Bible is anyone ever threatened with hell merely for the guilt inherited from Adam. Instead, whenever Scripture describes the inhabitants of hell, the stress is on their willful acts of sin and rebellion. Scripture always connects eternal condemnation with works of unrighteousness—willful sin.

Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,
10 Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God. 1 Co 6:9–10.

19 Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency,
20 Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
21 Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Ga 5:19–21

For be sure of this: that no person practicing sexual vice or impurity in thought or in life, or one who is covetous [who has lustful desire for the property of others and is greedy for gain]—for he [in effect] is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Eph 5:5.

6 It is on account of these [very sins] that the [holy] anger of God is ever coming upon the sons of disobedience (those who are obstinately opposed to the divine will) Col 3:6

But as for the cowards and the ignoble and the contemptible and the cravenly lacking in courage and the cowardly submissive, and as for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd and adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters (those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God) and all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)—[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death Rev 21:8

[But] without are the dogs and those who practice sorceries (magic arts) and impurity [the lewd, adulterers] and the murderers and idolaters and everyone who loves and deals in falsehood (untruth, error, deception, cheating). Rev 22:15

Hello Clay.
A question for you:
What do you know of the doctrine of imputation?

 

[jeremiah1five]

After He SINNED, and died spiritually as God said he would.

Doesn't the Law/Command show us that we are sinners?

And "Enticement" is from without

So, James 1:14 is written in error?

False. there's NO NEED to "See" anything. faith comes by way of God's WOrd to YOU (Rom 10:17

As you may or may not know Paul's letter is written to Jews at Rome. However, the same applies to Gentile believers.

False. Demons are all around us, there ARE "angels that are locked up, but the demonic is free to deceive, and tempt.

So, God went at halfway?
Lock up the angels that sinned but leave these "demons" loose on the planet?
Where do they come from?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Doesn't the Law/Command show us that we are sinners?

Sure - because we ALL SIN (duh).

So, James 1:14 is written in error?

Nope James 1:14 is accurate. it's YOUR PRIVATE INTERPRETATION that's in error.

As you may or may not know Paul's letter is written to Jews at Rome. However, the same applies to Gentile believers.

And???

So, God went at halfway?

No, silly He went as far as He wanted to.

Lock up the angels that sinned but leave these "demons" loose on the planet?
Where do they come from?

Which "Authoritative theological opinion" about that would you like???

 

[Clay]

Hello Clay.
A question for you:
What do you know of the doctrine of imputation?

The doctrine of imputation teaches that in the doctrine of justification, God imputes or accredits the righteousness and suffering of Jesus to those who are in him and, conversely, imputes the sins of those redeemed to Christ.

We have a sin nature because of Adam, but the guilt of sin is not accredited to us Until we actually sin. The guilt in the order of nature and fact precedes the spiritual death which is its penal consequent.

Little children and babies don't understand these things and are not held accountable for them. If they die God's grace saves them.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Sure - because we ALL SIN (duh).

The La doesn't show us we all sin, it shows us we are sinners. Big difference.

Nope James 1:14 is accurate. it's YOUR PRIVATE INTERPRETATION that's in error.

I doubt that. James 1:14 is clear temptation is from within.

And???

No, silly He went as far as He wanted to.

So the angels that sinned are locked up but these "demons" are loose on the planet? Tell me, what are "demons?"

Which "Authoritative theological opinion" about that would you like??

Are you here to provide other peoples' bible study or do you have any original thoughts yourself?

 

[jeremiah1five]

The doctrine of imputation teaches that in the doctrine of justification, God imputes or accredits the righteousness and suffering of Jesus to those who are in him and, conversely, imputes the sins of those redeemed to Christ.

Good, Clay.
Now here's the Scripture:

KJV 21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor 5:21.
(italics not in original text)

YLT 21for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him. 2 Co 5:21.

Did God make Him sin for us or merely place our sins on Him?

We have a sin nature because of Adam, but the guilt of sin is not accredited to us Until we actually sin. The guilt in the order of nature and fact precedes the spiritual death which is its penal consequent.

Doesn't the Law show us we are sinners or does it say to you that we can sin?
I ask because my reading of the Scripture presents to me that the Law shows us we are sinners, not that we can sin.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom. 7:7–11.

vs. 7 Paul describes that through the existence of the Law he'd not known sin. I don't see an act of sin, but the knowledge of sinfulness is his point.
vs. 8 the word "concupiscence" means "longing" [Strong's]. I still don't see an act of sin. As a matter of fact, Paul's thought is joined to what he says next: "for without the Law sin was dead."
It appears to me he is saying if there's no law there's no sin. Again, the existence of the Law is the existence of sin, not the act of sin.
vs. 9 Paul says, "when the Commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Again, I still see him saying the existence of the Law/Commandment revealed that he was a sinner, not that an act of sin made him a sinner.
vs. 10 The definition of sin is death (although the Greek word "harmatia" is defined literally as "missing the mark" which is descriptive of actual being dead [which is the result] as a sinner before a Sinless God), In other words "missing the mark" (and the "mark" being the standard of God's person by which all is judged) is the cause of one's death. It also means "death is sin." Do you agree?
vs. 11 Again, in other words Paul says the existence of the Law/ Command slew/killed him. I see no act of sin in his thought.

Little children and babies don't understand these things and are not held accountable for them. If they die God's grace saves them.

As above, if Christ is made sin [for us] who knew no sin (because His nature as God's Son is sinless), and we are imputed His righteousness doesn't that confirm that Christ died for our sin nature and not the acts of our sin nature?
We are imputed His righteousness. He is imputed our sin nature. A nature-swap. Surely, He didn't die for our acts of sin, or the passage would read as follows:

For he hath made him [to be] (the acts of) sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteous (acts) of God in him.

If we do have a sin nature and Christ only died for our acts of sin, then the sin nature from which the acts of sin originate remains and we enter glory with an unatoned sin nature. This can't be right.

As I said, a nature-swap. He is imputed our sin nature and we are imputed His righteous nature. Peter make such a statement:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature... 2 Peter 1:4.

So, can you agree it's a nature-swap that is described in 2 Cor. 5:21?

Now, let's go to the Garden. If the existence of the Law/Command slew/kills us, and it is our sin nature by which is our death, and the Law/Command of God "thou shalt not eat of it" [the Tree], can it also be said as coming from Adam:
ADAM: "What shall say then? Is the law/command sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law/command: for I had not known disobedience, except the law/command had said, thou shalt not eat of it." Can Paul's words be applied to Adam?
Paul said the existence of the Law/Command slew us. There is no "act" of sin explained here.
Without the Law/Command there is no sin. It is only through the existence of a Law/Command whereby we die.
And since it is true that "wickedness proceedeth from the wicked" (1 Sam. 24:13) is the same as saying sin comes from sinners? Doesn't this prove we sin because we are sinners and not we are sinners because we sin?
So, if we are conceived through sperm and egg as the beginning of our sin nature in growth, and we die because there is the existence of a Law/Command, and Christ died for our sin nature, where in the creation of man did the sin nature come from if we sin because we are sinners and not we are sinners because we sin (considering the embryo in a woman's womb.) The question now becomes if we are conceived in the womb with a sin nature and Christ performed a nature-swap, why does atonement different in application to an adult against a baby in the womb? Two forms of atonement? One applying to all babies in the womb with a sin nature against an adult with a sin nature that must rely on His name being in the book of life of the lamb slain.
There is election to be considered as well in this equation, yes?
I suppose that if all babies that die in the womb or shortly after birth go to God then the advantage is to die as a baby to enter God's kingdom.
But as I explained there are two atonements. One for adult in which election is necessary to go to heaven, and one in which election is assured as a baby who dies and goes to heaven.
Are you following me?

 

[Clay]

Good, Clay.
Now here's the Scripture:

KJV 21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor 5:21.
(italics not in original text)

YLT 21for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him. 2 Co 5:21.

Did God make Him sin for us or merely place our sins on Him?

Doesn't the Law show us we are sinners or does it say to you that we can sin?
I ask because my reading of the Scripture presents to me that the Law shows us we are sinners, not that we can sin.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom. 7:7–11.

vs. 7 Paul describes that through the existence of the Law he'd not known sin. I don't see an act of sin, but the knowledge of sinfulness is his point.
vs. 8 the word "concupiscence" means "longing" [Strong's]. I still don't see an act of sin. As a matter of fact, Paul's thought is joined to what he says next: "for without the Law sin was dead."
It appears to me he is saying if there's no law there's no sin. Again, the existence of the Law is the existence of sin, not the act of sin.
vs. 9 Paul says, "when the Commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Again, I still see him saying the existence of the Law/Commandment revealed that he was a sinner, not that an act of sin made him a sinner.
vs. 10 The definition of sin is death (although the Greek word "harmatia" is defined literally as "missing the mark" which is descriptive of actual being dead [which is the result] as a sinner before a Sinless God), In other words "missing the mark" (and the "mark" being the standard of God's person by which all is judged) is the cause of one's death. It also means "death is sin." Do you agree?
vs. 11 Again, in other words Paul says the existence of the Law/ Command slew/killed him. I see no act of sin in his thought.

As above, if Christ is made sin [for us] who knew no sin (because His nature as God's Son is sinless), and we are imputed His righteousness doesn't that confirm that Christ died for our sin nature and not the acts of our sin nature?
We are imputed His righteousness. He is imputed our sin nature. A nature-swap. Surely, He didn't die for our acts of sin, or the passage would read as follows:

For he hath made him [to be] (the acts of) sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteous (acts) of God in him.

If we do have a sin nature and Christ only died for our acts of sin, then the sin nature from which the acts of sin originate remains and we enter glory with an unatoned sin nature. This can't be right.

As I said, a nature-swap. He is imputed our sin nature and we are imputed His righteous nature. Peter make such a statement:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature... 2 Peter 1:4.

So, can you agree it's a nature-swap that is described in 2 Cor. 5:21?

Now, let's go to the Garden. If the existence of the Law/Command slew/kills us, and it is our sin nature by which is our death, and the Law/Command of God "thou shalt not eat of it" [the Tree], can it also be said as coming from Adam:
ADAM: "What shall say then? Is the law/command sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law/command: for I had not known disobedience, except the law/command had said, thou shalt not eat of it." Can Paul's words be applied to Adam?
Paul said the existence of the Law/Command slew us. There is no "act" of sin explained here.
Without the Law/Command there is no sin. It is only through the existence of a Law/Command whereby we die.
And since it is true that "wickedness proceedeth from the wicked" (1 Sam. 24:13) is the same as saying sin comes from sinners? Doesn't this prove we sin because we are sinners and not we are sinners because we sin?
So, if we are conceived through sperm and egg as the beginning of our sin nature in growth, and we die because there is the existence of a Law/Command, and Christ died for our sin nature, where in the creation of man did the sin nature come from if we sin because we are sinners and not we are sinners because we sin (considering the embryo in a woman's womb.) The question now becomes if we are conceived in the womb with a sin nature and Christ performed a nature-swap, why does atonement different in application to an adult against a baby in the womb? Two forms of atonement? One applying to all babies in the womb with a sin nature against an adult with a sin nature that must rely on His name being in the book of life of the lamb slain.
There is election to be considered as well in this equation, yes?
I suppose that if all babies that die in the womb or shortly after birth go to God then the advantage is to die as a baby to enter God's kingdom.
But as I explained there are two atonements. One for adult in which election is necessary to go to heaven, and one in which election is assured as a baby who dies and goes to heaven.
Are you following me?

No offense but I'm not following you. The strongest urge we have as human beings is to live. How could a baby possibly comprehend that it would be to his advantage to die to go and be with God.

I'm familiar with the doctrine of the perseverance of the Saints and that election would ensure infants who died going to heaven. But that's not even close to what I'm talking about.

A young child has no ability to perceive what God has revealed and made manifest and then reject it. Young children are not “futile in their thoughts.” They have no awareness of the things God has revealed and, therefore, they can neither cry out to God nor turn away from Him.

A young child is truly incapable of rebellion against God because rebellion against God is rooted in deliberate, willful hatred of God.

Speaking through the prophet Isaiah, the Lord said, “Before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings”. Isa. 7:16

The Lord was referring to the state of young childhood, a time when a person is incapable of making a willful choice to rebel against God. There is no statement in the Scriptures that indicates divine judgment comes to those who never have a knowledge of right and wrong, or who never have the opportunity to choose whether they will love or hate God.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Adam was not God and possessed NONE of God's Nature or Deific Attributes.
Result: He is fallen short of God's glory.

False. Adam wasn't God, but THAT in and of itself HAS NOTHING TO DO with "fallen short of god's glory". OUR SIN (Isa 59:2) is the reason .

I agree. But He was still tempted, and temptation is from within.

ANd "Enticement" is from without. Jesus' recorded temptation demonstrates that.

Faith is both sight and faith. Israel walked by sight when following the cloud of smoke by day and pillar of fire by night.

And that they had little or no "FAITH" is also recorded.

If you want to believe Jesus was tempted by an angel named "Satan" then you contradict Peter and Jude who say under inspiration of the Holy Spirit the angels that sinned are locked up.

And if you bother to read with undersatanding, the "Locked up Angels" were from Noah's time. You'd do well to pay attention to CONTEXT.

Man was created fallen short of the glory of God. The word for that is "sin."

Pure FOOLISHNESS!!!!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Doesn't the Law/Command show us that we are sinners?

ABsolutely - AFTER we start SINNING.

So, James 1:14 is written in error?

Nope - your silly "private interpretation" is in error. What denominational paradigm did you pick that foolishness up from???

So, God went at halfway?

Nope God did everything perfectly.

Lock up the angels that sinned but leave these "demons" loose on the planet?
Where do they come from?

Which "theological " opinion would you like???