Why Calvinism is a bad thing.

[Dizerner]

Satan did not initially understand his inexcusable desire.\

Oh, Satan understood exactly what he was doing.

He constantly tries to paint himself as the "victim" as ignorant or justified in his sin.

Satan knew God was the only Worthy Entity and yet he said "I will be like the Most High."

Notice he wasn't even stupid enough to think he could eliminate God, just be like him.

Satan is probably the most knowledgable creature God has ever created.

 

[civic]

Oh, Satan understood exactly what he was doing.

He constantly tries to paint himself as the "victim" as ignorant or justified in his sin.

Satan knew God was the only Worthy Entity and yet he said "I will be like the Most High."

Notice he wasn't even stupid enough to think he could eliminate God, just be like him.

Satan is probably the most knowledgable creature God has ever created.

Maybe PSA falls under doctrines of demons since it blasphemes Gods character within the Trinity with its origins in paganism, Gnosticism and Greek philosophy

 

[GeneZ]

Oh, Satan understood exactly what he was doing.

He constantly tries to paint himself as the "victim" as ignorant or justified in his sin.

Satan knew God was the only Worthy Entity and yet he said "I will be like the Most High."

Notice he wasn't even stupid enough to think he could eliminate God, just be like him.

Satan is probably the most knowledgable creature God has ever created.

You mean before the fall of Satan? The angels and Satan already understood murder and jealousy??????

How?! That would mean God created angels sinful and in a fallen world.

The angels had zero frame of reference for what the overt actions would be for an evil desire they could not act upon.

Again? How could God teach them what murder was when no overt murder ever took place?
And, add to that? They were created into a perfect world of Heaven. No sin.. no murder... no cheating and lying.

God can not create the sinful.

 

[Dizerner]

Maybe PSA falls under doctrines of demons since it blasphemes Gods character within the Trinity with its origins in paganism, Gnosticism and Greek philosophy

I really don't think upholding the Law of God is blasphemy.

I honestly don't even know how a sane person could come to that conclusion except to rebel against God's holiness.

 

[civic]

I really don't think upholding the Law of God is blasphemy.

I honestly don't even know how a sane person could come to that conclusion except to rebel against God's holiness.

Pitting the Father against the Son that’s how. Don’t know how any sane person could accept it. The broken and forsaken Tri-Unity turned dis-unity and dysfunctional.

 

[Dizerner]

You mean before the fall of Satan? The angels and Satan already understood murder and jealousy??????

Well, there's a few complex issues here. There is experiential understanding and inferential understanding.

I don't know what it feels like to actually drown—I don't have that "experiential" understanding.

But I can understand the facts of what drowning entails and extrapolate out ideas of what it might feel like.


Obviously sin was not "experientially" known until it was committed, but it is not necessary to experience something to know something about it.

I may not know the full consequences of what it will mean for me to stick a fork in a socket, but I know it will be bad and I shouldn't do it.

One does not need full experiential knowledge of sin to know sin is bad—this is a great perversion distorting the thinking about it.

 

[Dizerner]

Pitting the Father against the Son that’s how

Nobody's doing that but you and your anti-PSA buddies.

It's a complete straw man that doesn't relate to anything about the doctrine.

You want me to fight a straw man for you?

Don’t know how any sane person could accept it. The broken and forsaken Tri-Unity turned dis-unity and dysfunctional.

Your sin nature, which you seem to deny and claim some kind of self-righteousness apart from Christ, will never respect the Law of God.

The Law demands justice and the punishment of sin, and you know that in you heart.

God can take that punishment for you, without your silly, inaccurate and gross mischaracterizations of what that means.


Repentance is called for here.

 

[civic]

Nobody's doing that but you and your anti-PSA buddies.

It's a complete straw man that doesn't relate to anything about the doctrine.

You want me to fight a straw man for you?



Your sin nature, which you seem to deny and claim some kind of self-righteousness apart from Christ, will never respect the Law of God.

The Law demands justice and the punishment of sin, and you know that in you heart.

God can take that punishment for you, without your silly, inaccurate and gross mischaracterizations of what that means.


Repentance is called for here.

More augustine false doctrine that he married with the church like all heretics do mixing truth with error. Satans speciality

 

[GeneZ]

Well, there's a few complex issues here. There is experiential understanding and inferential understanding.

I don't know what it feels like to actually drown—I don't have that "experiential" understanding.

But I can understand the facts of what drowning entails and extrapolate out ideas of what it might feel like.

That's because, since the fall, we now born into having knowledge of Good and Evil.

Before the fall?

Adam and the woman had no knowledge of good and evil. Not before they ate the fruit. Remember?

What if there were no evil in the world you were born into?
Could you know what evil is if there was nothing to show you what it is?

That was what God needed to provide the angels after Satan and "his boys" fell.
Examples of what their fallen desires would produce if allowed to.

It hard to comprehend what a world would be like if their were nothing fallen....

 

[GeneZ]

Nobody's doing that but you and your anti-PSA buddies.

It's a complete straw man that doesn't relate to anything about the doctrine.

You want me to fight a straw man for you?



Your sin nature, which you seem to deny and claim some kind of self-righteousness apart from Christ, will never respect the Law of God.

The Law demands justice and the punishment of sin, and you know that in you heart.

God can take that punishment for you, without your silly, inaccurate and gross mischaracterizations of what that means.


Repentance is called for here.

PSA... Definition. The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty due according to God the Father's wrath for humanity's sins.

Probably better to say it.. What "would have been" the penalty for our sins if we were on our own.

 

[TedT]

Satan's (and our) free will was based upon knowledge...please bear with me.

1. GOD knows fully and completely everything HE creates as He is omniscient.

2. GOD, by HIS omniscience, knows fully and completely every possible permutation of change as a possibility.

3. When GOD decreed our ability to make a true free will choice, HE did not decree the outcome of that choice or we were choosing by HIS will, not our own will. GOD did NOT choose for some to have faith and others to never believe and so be condemned. These things happened by the real, true choice of the individual.

4. Therefore, before each true free will choice was made, HE did not know as fact what choice each person would make but only each possibility. This is h HowE did not create those who would end in hell, a creative act HE could never have made.

5. Therefore some people might choose to become HIS eternal enemies fit only for hell against HIS desires but HE did not "create them damned" because He did not know in fact what they would choose but only every possibility.

6. Therefore by omniscience He could not save anyone from hell by not creating them because free will decisions were not decreed as to which known possibility would be chosen.

Pre-Conception Existence theology also contends that proof destroys the true free will choice. Not all free will but for that choice, yes.

If I tell you that a door leads to death but another leads to life and that you must choose one, do you have a real choice? Not really...without more information you merely have a total guess. That is what TRUE means in a true free will choice...it must be a real choice, not an uninformed guess from ignorance.

If I spend enough time with you for you to learn to trust me and to know that I am a person of much knowledge and I tell you that behind the first door, the one right there on the left, has a tiger behind it and if you open it, the tiger will kill you; then you have a choice to believe me or trust me or not but you have some knowledge about the situation so you are not blindly guessing anymore.

BUT if I open the doors a peek and let you see the tiger behind one door and a path to freedom behind the other door, do you still have a free choice? No you do not - the proof of the tiger impinges your self interest so that you are constrained to choose the door to freedom and since the FREE of free will means uncoerced, this choice has no free will in it.

Proof coerces our will to choose in our best self interest, not that which we might otherwise have chosen for ourselves.

I contend that in the true free will choice to accept GOD's purpose for our creation and receive HIS free gift of election backed by the gospel promise of salvation if we should ever choose to be evil in HIS sight (the path to freedom)
OR
to reject HIS purpose for their creation and thereby put themselves outside of HIS will forever by self creating themselves as the eternal enemies of GOD, (the tiger),

that once HE proved HIS divinity and power by the creation of the physical universe before all our eyes (as per Romans 1:20) and every knee did bow and every voice did sing HIS praise, Job 38:7, that no more free will decisions could be made about HIS divinity nor our relationship with HIM as the proof HE was GOD now controlled all our choices by our self interest, not by free will.

AS well, the true free will of some of the elect was seriously damaged and destroyed by their choosing to become sinful in HIS sight over the damnation of HIS eternal enemies, as implied in the parable of the wheat and the tares, rendering them slaves to sin, completely addicted to sin and without a free will of their own.

Therefore when GOD made the earth for them to live to learn about sin and to learn to hate it, HE gave us programmed lives to live down here, restraining our sins and the sins of the non-elect by HIS grace while HE brought us to redemption in the blood of HIS Son and sanctification to holiness in the Spirit.

HE did not program every choice we make. No free will does not mean no ability to choose but manages our choices for us so we can learn the great lesson of all life - to hate evil and to choose only the good.

In context here, I suggest it was imperative that everyone choosing to put their faith in YHWH's claims or to reject HIM as a liar and therefore a false god had to have a perfect understanding of what these claims entailed and chose where to put their faith based purely on the kind of reality they wished to live in... Since Faith is an unproven hope, all faith decisions for or against HIM were unproven and reflected only the deepest desire of the individual, NOT the desires of GOD HIMself. And when we all saw the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power when HE created the physical universe before our eyes, Job 38:7, our self chosen fates were sealed for eternity.

 

[Dizerner]

4. Therefore, before each true free will choice was made, HE did not know as fact what choice each person would make but only each possibility.

God is outside of time, so he is not bound by time dependent logic.

This is how HE did not create those who would end in hell, a creative act HE could never have made.

Why would God not create people he knows will go to hell?

Do you think that's an unloving thing to do?

 

[e v e]

God is outside of time, so he is not bound by time dependent logic.

that is the problem with logic

His way of thinking is perfect ....

it is the logic of this (fallen) reality which is the problem

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Satan's (and our) free will was based upon knowledge...please bear with me.

1. GOD knows fully and completely everything HE creates as He is omniscient.

2. GOD, by HIS omniscience, knows fully and completely every possible permutation of change as a possibility.

3. When GOD decreed our ability to make a true free will choice, HE did not decree the outcome of that choice or we were choosing by HIS will, not our own will. GOD did NOT choose for some to have faith and others to never believe and so be condemned. These things happened by the real, true choice of the individual.

4. Therefore, before each true free will choice was made, HE did not know as fact what choice each person would make but only each possibility. This is h HowE did not create those who would end in hell, a creative act HE could never have made.

5. Therefore some people might choose to become HIS eternal enemies fit only for hell against HIS desires but HE did not "create them damned" because He did not know in fact what they would choose but only every possibility.

6. Therefore by omniscience He could not save anyone from hell by not creating them because free will decisions were not decreed as to which known possibility would be chosen.

You have quite an imagination. Doesn't jibe with anything in the Bible, but it's creative.

 

[Rockson]

2. GOD, by HIS omniscience, knows fully and completely every possible permutation of change as a possibility.

3. When GOD decreed our ability to make a true free will choice, HE did not decree the outcome of that choice or we were choosing by HIS will, not our own will. GOD did NOT choose for some to have faith and others to never believe and so be condemned. These things happened by the real, true choice of the individual.

4. Therefore, before each true free will choice was made, HE did not know as fact what choice each person would make but only each possibility.

So that would mean you're an Open Theist correct?

 

[Dizerner]

that is the problem with logic

What that it's time dependent?

Not all logic is time dependent clearly.

How can one have any clear thought without some kind of logical order of ideas?

 

[e v e]

What that it's time dependent?

Not all logic is time dependent clearly.

How can one have any clear thought without some kind of logical order of ideas?

I simply point out that His ways are not ours...

put in other words... greek logic is not how He speaks to us.

 

[Dizerner]

I simply point out that His ways are not ours... put in other words... greek logic is not how He speaks to us.

Certainly God speaks to us through supernatural revelation.

However, he is a God of order and has established some order in how we think.

 

[TedT]

God is outside of time, so he is not bound by time dependent logic.

Time measures the size and rate of change. Unless GOD is totally static, no new thoughts or decisions, HE is involved with things before HIS new thought and things after - a timed sequence. YHWH is not a time Lord nor an insentient rock.

 

[TedT]

Why would God not create people he knows will go to hell?

Because HE implies HE wants hell to be empty.

HE does everything for HIS own good pleasure but HE takes NO pleasure in the death, ie, condemnation to hell, of anyone: Ezek 33:11
Berean Standard Bible
Say to them: ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live.
with
1 Timothy 2:4
who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. If HE wants all to be saved the simplest and most sure method to make this happen is to not create those HE knows will not be saved.

Also HE takes NO pleasure in evil:
Psalm 5:4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. I contend that if this Psalm is true, HE would never have created the evil reprobate for HIS pleasure because HE takes no pleasure in evil!