Why Calvinism is a bad thing.

[The Rogue Tomato]

Evil is not good. But it's a good thing that there is evil. For example, Joseph responds to his brothers' treachery, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."

 

[GeneZ]

I simply point out that His ways are not ours...

put in other words... greek logic is not how He speaks to us.

But, its how He wants to speak to us at times that are vital.

Learning how Greek logic works makes us closer to how God wants us to know He thinks.
There is a great reason why Greek was chosen as the language of the NT.
Parts of the book of Romans was written by Paul using classic a fortiori logic.
How many today are able to understand this without being shown?

Our salvation as expressed in the Bible in Greek is having taken place in a point of time.
Then, like a snap shot, recorded forever outside of time. And, remains being our salvation forever.

The dodo's who think we can lose our salvation? They have no idea of God's thinking in the Greek of the Bible.
But, now for a season, they may be able to find their distortion-playground in English translations,
but God is going to show them to be the fool that they are, when his thinking. which is beautifully
expressed in Greek logic, exposes their antagonisms towards his grace and the justice of God.

Certain theological debates we see rampant amongst very confused Christians today, would never have taken place
amongst those in the Greek thinking world at the time the NT was written.

God provides for those who hunger to know the Truth.
For those who do not truly hunger, he allows them to their box of chocolates.

Few find it.....

 

[GeneZ]

Time measures the size and rate of change. Unless GOD is totally static, no new thoughts or decisions, HE is involved with things before HIS new thought and things after - a timed sequence. YHWH is not a time Lord nor an insentient rock.

God never learns anything new. No need. For all eternity everything will be constantly new. And, He is eternal life.

 

[TedT]

Evil is not good. But it's a good thing that there is evil. For example, Joseph responds to his brothers' treachery, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."

Yes it is a good thing that GOD created this earth to sequester HIS heaven from the evil of earth's citizens. Earth is a prison planet with a rehab center for those who can be saved from their enslaving addiction to evil by experiencing the results of evil choices.

Without experiencing the evil of the reprobate for ourselves we would never agree to come out from among them so they can be judged!

 

[Dizerner]

Time measures the size and rate of change. Unless GOD is totally static, no new thoughts or decisions, HE is involved with things before HIS new thought and things after - a timed sequence. YHWH is not a time Lord nor an insentient rock.

This is forcing God into the limitations of a created framework.

Static—and motion—are both parameters of a created framework, so God is neither static nor motion.

All errors about God's attributes stem from forcing him into a created framework, making him "fit" the human mind.

Isaiah says God tabernacles in eternity—he dwells in a timeless state.

 

[TedT]

God never learns anything new. No need. For all eternity everything will be constantly new. And, He is eternal life.

How does this not imply that HE knew who would end in eternal hell but created them anyway for no reason??? It does not conform to HIS self revelation of HIS nature nor HIS desires...

 

[Dizerner]

Because HE implies HE wants hell to be empty.

That does not logically prove he has no higher or greater value and reason to allow some to go to hell.

God wanting hell empty is a secondary not a primary desire.

It's like if I want ice cream and I want to lose weight, I can't have both—but I can WANT both.

This creates a hierarchy of desires, where the topmost will supersede the lower.

 

[civic]

Evil is not good. But it's a good thing that there is evil. For example, Joseph responds to his brothers' treachery, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."

Evil or sin is never good. But God can turns something evil or sinful into good as an outcome. There is a vast difference between them.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

It's like if I want ice cream and I want to lose weight, I can't have both—but I can WANT both.

This creates a hierarchy of desires, where the topmost will supersede the lower.

That's a perfect example of how I described "free will". We choose according to our strongest inclination at the time. At one time, your strongest inclination may be to lose weight, and you will choose to refuse ice cream. At another time, your desire for ice cream may be stronger, and you'll choose to have some.

 

[TedT]

HE knows perfectly what HE has decreed into creation and what HE has not decreed to be created HE knows perfectly as possibilities.

Acts 15:18 'Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.'

but NOT all of everything…

GOD knows with a full and complete knowledge everything HE decrees to exist or to happen, that is, all HIS works. GOD also knows that which HE has not decreed to exist or to happen as possibilities, fully and with complete knowledge.

Pre-Conception Existence Theology contends that GOD, by sovereign decree, created all of us with the ability to make true free will decisions, but HE did NOT decree the results of those choices so HE knew what we would choose perfectly only as possibilities.

So, I contend that GOD's omniscience covers:
1. all of reality; that is, all that HE ever decreed to be created, that is, all HIS works.
2. all of possibility; that is every possible permutation of the nature of the future was known to HIM.

So, I claim HIS omniscience is full and complete.

BUT I also contend that by HIS sovereignty, HE did not decree which possibility any of the spirits created in HIS image would choose, leaving that decision up to their own choice based upon their faith, their unproven hope for their happiness, Heb 11: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ie unproven.

Does anyone argue that GOD cannot not decree which possibility will be chosen by a created person? GOD's will is sovereign and IF He does not decree which possibility will be chosen that is HIS will and it is righteous.

Therefore, in this manner, HE did not create the destiny (predestination) of anyone before their creation nor before their decision to accept HIM or to reject HIM as GOD, and the fate HE predestined them after their free will choice was in perfect accord with their own true free will decision, made by faith, ie an unproven hope, before the earth was created.

Earthly life on the other hand is predestined and predetermined to bring HIS sinful elect to redemption and to holiness by using the tares as the supreme bad example of relentless eternal hatred to GOD.

Peace, Ted

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Evil or sin is never good. But God can turns something evil or sinful into good as an outcome. There is a vast difference between them.

Hence the promise "28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose."

If God's will can be subverted, that statement would be false.

 

[Dizerner]

That's a perfect example of how I described "free will". We choose according to our strongest inclination at the time. At one time, your strongest inclination may be to lose weight, and you will choose to refuse ice cream. At another time, your desire for ice cream may be stronger, and you'll choose to have some.

Yes, but sometimes you can "choose ye this day" which one you want.

That's what creates real responsibility—the power of picking which top desire you want to have.

 

[Dizerner]

Hence the promise "28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose."

If God's will can be subverted, that statement would be false.

Actually... this is a limitation of the Greek here.

A more accurate translation is this:

Now we know that all things work together toward good, to those who love God, to those who are an invited one according to his purpose (Rom. 8:28 MLV)

Toward the good.

It doesn't mean child molestation was a good thing, for example.

It means God can redeem it, and bring something good out of it.

God's will is subverted everyday, that's why we pray for it to be done.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Yes, but sometimes you can "choose ye this day" which one you want.

"Which one you want" is the definition of strongest inclination.

That's what creates real responsibility—the power of picking which top desire you want to have.

You pick which desire you want to have? Really? That's double-speak. If that's possible, I issue this challenge: Pick the desire to follow God's law perfectly, then you will have no need of Christ.

 

[Dizerner]

How does this not imply that HE knew who would end in eternal hell but created them anyway for no reason??? It does not conform to HIS self revelation of HIS nature nor HIS desires...

He had a sufficient reason.

We can trust him with that.

 

[Dizerner]

You pick which desire you want to have? Really? That's double-speak. If that's possible, I issue this challenge: Pick the desire to follow God's law perfectly, then you will have no need of Christ.

No, it's not doublespeak, because there is no logical contradiction.

Your "example" is conflating possible and impossible choices.

I cannot choose to fly, but I can choose to stop eating ice cream sometimes.

It's a nice feeling to absolve ourselves from responsibility isn't it, and just say "well, I can' t help my primary desire."

There's a reason we put criminals in jail, we consider them culpable, and able to have done otherwise.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Actually... this is a limitation of the Greek here.

A more accurate translation is this:

Now we know that all things work together toward good, to those who love God, to those who are an invited one according to his purpose (Rom. 8:28 MLV)

Toward the good.

It doesn't mean child molestation was a good thing, for example.

It means God can redeem it, and bring something good out of it.

God's will is subverted everyday, that's why we pray for it to be done.

The Greek is called, not "invited". And that is reinforced by the next lines: 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Don't pretend the Greek means something it doesn't. It will come back and bite you.

 

[Dizerner]

The Greek is called, not "invited".

Do you know what to call someone means?

You have adopted an anachronism of modern "Christianese" where we speak of someone's "call" and their "calling."

If I "call" to my child in the other room for supper, I am inviting them.

Biting works both ways—good to study it out.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Do you know what to call someone means?

You have adopted an anachronism of modern "Christianese" where we speak of someone's "call" and their "calling."

If I "call" to my child in the other room for supper, I am inviting them.

Biting works both ways—good to study it out.

Was Paul called to be an apostle, or was he invited to be an apostle? I know the Greek. You can pretend to have an alternate explanation, but you can't pull the wool over my eyes.

Next you'll say "37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." really means "All the Father has invited to come to me."

 

[GeneZ]

How does this not imply that HE knew who would end in eternal hell but created them anyway for no reason??? It does not conform to HIS self revelation of HIS nature nor HIS desires...

The question should be.....

Was there a way for God to create man without intentionally creating those who would, or would not, believe?

We have been given clues as to how He was able to do that.

grace and peace ....................