Why Calvinism is a bad thing.

[Johann]

But their doctrine from the WCF and numerous Calvinist theologians affirm determinism and double predestination does just that which included evil.

Yet even among Calvinists there are disagreements-as well as Arminians.

Shall we quote sources and Scriptures for the benefit of others since on this Forum there is no consistent dialogue-the table is spread-too many topics causing diversion-here a little-there a little.

Denying Double Predestination


“The doctrine of the unconditional election of a part, necessarily implies the unconditional reprobation of the rest. I know some who hold to the former, seem to deny the latter; for they represent God as reprobating sinners, in view of their sins. When all were sinners, they say God passed by some, and elected others. Hence, they say the decree of damnation against the reprobates is just, because it is against sinners. But this explanation is virtually giving up the system, inasmuch as it gives up all the principal arguments by which it is supported.

In the first place, it makes predestination dependent on foreknowledge; for God first foresees that they will be sinners, and then predestinates them to punishment. Here is one case then, in which the argument for Calvinian predestination is destroyed by its own supporters. But again if God must fix by his decree all parts of his plan, in order to prevent disappointment, then he must fix the destiny of the reprobates, and the means that lead to it. But if he did not do this, then the Calvinistic argument in favour of predestination, drawn from the Divine plan, falls to the ground.

Once more: this explanation of the decree of reprobation destroys all the strongest Scripture arguments which the Calvinists urge in favour of unconditional election.”
CALVINISTIC CONTROVERSY: EMBRACING A SERMON ON PREDESTINATION AND ELECTION, AND SEVERAL NUMBERS, FORMERLY PUBLISHED IN THE CHRISTIAN ADVOCATE AND JOURNAL. BY REV. WILBUR FISK, D. D.

“Indeed many,…accept election in such terms as to deny that anyone is condemned. But they do this very ignorantly and childishly, since election itself could not stand except as set over against reprobation.” John Calvin, Institutes of Religion, 3,23,1

-but you are off to another topic brother.

J.

 

[dwight92070]

@dwight92070 is wrong in his assertion and to paint Calvin black with his statement re Hitler.
Many here are Calvinists and don't even know it.
J.

God foreordains ALL things, including sin, according to Calvinism, so in what way is it wrong to point this out? Sometimes it requires what seems to be a shocking (but true) statement, in order to get people to see the deception that they adhere to. By the way, I did not "paint Calvin black", he did that himself with his evil belief that opponents should be executed.

 

[Johann]

God foreordains ALL things, including sin, according to Calvinism, so in what way is it wrong to point this out? Sometimes it requires what seems to be a shocking (but true) statement, in order to get people to see the deception that they adhere to. By the way, I did not "paint Calvin black", he did that himself with his evil belief that opponents should be executed.

non sequitur.
J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

non sequitur.
J.

Define non sequitur and explain how it applies to his statement.

 

[Johann]

Define non sequitur and explain how it applies to his statement.

Brother-these topics on Calvinism and Arminians is bringing divisions and schisms between the weaker brothers and the strong.
Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


Believers must be careful not to make their theology or ethics the standard for all other believers (cf. 2 Cor. 10:12).

All believers must walk in the light they have but understand that their theology is not automatically God's theology.

All believers are still affected by sin. We must encourage, exhort, and teach one another from the Scriptures, reason, and experience, but always in love. The more one knows the more one knows he/she does not know (cf. 1 Cor. 13:12)!

One's attitude and motives before God are the real keys in evaluating other believers' actions. Christians will stand before Christ to be judged on how they treated one another (cf. Rom. 14:10,12 and 2 Cor. 5:10) and others (cf. Matt. 25:31-46).

Martin Luther said, "A Christian man is a most free Lord of all, subject to none; the Christian man is a most dutiful servant of all, subject to all." Biblical truth is often presented in a tension-filled paradox.


NASB, NKJV  "the one who is weak in faith"
NRSV, TEV, REB  "those who are weak in faith"
NJB  "If a a person's faith is not strong enough"
Peshitta  "who is weak in the faith"
This phrase is emphasized by being fronted (i.e., put first in the Greek text). Literally it is "weak in faith." The PRESENT TENSE focuses on the fact that it is a lifestyle characteristic. This refers to

a legalistic mindset
the over scrupulous Christian believer is described in this chapter in three ways:
prohibitions of food (cf. Rom. 14:2,6,21)
emphasis on special days (cf. Rom. 14:5-6)
prohibition of wine (cf. Rom. 14:17,21)

This same type of person was mentioned in Rom. 15:1 and 1 Cor. 8:9-13; 9:22. Be careful not to categorize yourself too quickly as a "strong" or "weak" Christian. Often believers are weak in one area and strong in another.

Paul's attitude toward these matters is very different in Gal. 4:9-10 and Col. 2:16-23. These texts reflect the attitudes and teachings of false teachers. In Romans these are sincere believers who have over-scrupulous consciences.

Many commentators think the "weak in faith" refers to Jewish believers (i.e., Judaizers) and their continuing emphasis on obedience to the Mosaic Law as understood in rabbinical traditions (i.e., Talmud). This surely fits a. and b. in paragraph one, but it does not fit c. For this reason I think a certain personality type better fits the context. It may refer to Jewish or Gentile believers whose past traditions and lifestyles hold powerful sway!

Agree?
J.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Brother-these topics on Calvinism and Arminians is bringing divisions and schisms between the weaker brothers and the strong.
Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


Believers must be careful not to make their theology or ethics the standard for all other believers (cf. 2 Cor. 10:12).

All believers must walk in the light they have but understand that their theology is not automatically God's theology.

All believers are still affected by sin. We must encourage, exhort, and teach one another from the Scriptures, reason, and experience, but always in love. The more one knows the more one knows he/she does not know (cf. 1 Cor. 13:12)!

One's attitude and motives before God are the real keys in evaluating other believers' actions. Christians will stand before Christ to be judged on how they treated one another (cf. Rom. 14:10,12 and 2 Cor. 5:10) and others (cf. Matt. 25:31-46).

Martin Luther said, "A Christian man is a most free Lord of all, subject to none; the Christian man is a most dutiful servant of all, subject to all." Biblical truth is often presented in a tension-filled paradox.


NASB, NKJV  "the one who is weak in faith"
NRSV, TEV, REB  "those who are weak in faith"
NJB  "If a a person's faith is not strong enough"
Peshitta  "who is weak in the faith"
This phrase is emphasized by being fronted (i.e., put first in the Greek text). Literally it is "weak in faith." The PRESENT TENSE focuses on the fact that it is a lifestyle characteristic. This refers to

a legalistic mindset
the over scrupulous Christian believer is described in this chapter in three ways:
prohibitions of food (cf. Rom. 14:2,6,21)
emphasis on special days (cf. Rom. 14:5-6)
prohibition of wine (cf. Rom. 14:17,21)

This same type of person was mentioned in Rom. 15:1 and 1 Cor. 8:9-13; 9:22. Be careful not to categorize yourself too quickly as a "strong" or "weak" Christian. Often believers are weak in one area and strong in another.

Paul's attitude toward these matters is very different in Gal. 4:9-10 and Col. 2:16-23. These texts reflect the attitudes and teachings of false teachers. In Romans these are sincere believers who have over-scrupulous consciences.

Many commentators think the "weak in faith" refers to Jewish believers (i.e., Judaizers) and their continuing emphasis on obedience to the Mosaic Law as understood in rabbinical traditions (i.e., Talmud). This surely fits a. and b. in paragraph one, but it does not fit c. For this reason I think a certain personality type better fits the context. It may refer to Jewish or Gentile believers whose past traditions and lifestyles hold powerful sway!

Agree?
J.

I believe you might have come "full circle" here. I agree that arguments are often petty and meaningless. No man is above question... Alternatively, all men answer to God. We can individually judge what facts and qualities of humanity we want in our own lives. Qualities that carry forward to teach those with whom we love and share inmate bonds with in this life. Debate helps us sharpen our responses and focus our thoughts to more closely align with God. Thus, pleasing God to whom we all singularly serve.

I avoid petty arguments but I seldom call out pettiness. I just avoid it myself.

There are good and bad things in all of us. What is public information is "free game". Most of the time the best thing a person can do is just claim "guilty as charged" and take solice in God's infinite mercy expressed toward all men.

 

[Johann]

Define non sequitur and explain how it applies to his statement.

Brother-these topics on Calvinism and Arminians is bringing divisions and schisms between the weaker brothers and the strong.
Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


Believers must be careful not to make their theology or ethics the standard for all other believers (cf. 2 Cor. 10:12).

All believers must walk in the light they have but understand that their theology is not automatically God's theology.

All believers are still affected by sin. We must encourage, exhort, and teach one another from the Scriptures, reason, and experience, but always in love. The more one knows the more one knows he/she does not know (cf. 1 Cor. 13:12)!

One's attitude and motives before God are the real keys in evaluating other believers' actions. Christians will stand before Christ to be judged on how they treated one another (cf. Rom. 14:10,12 and 2 Cor. 5:10) and others (cf. Matt. 25:31-46).

Martin Luther said, "A Christian man is a most free Lord of all, subject to none; the Christian man is a most dutiful servant of all, subject to all." Biblical truth is often presented in a tension-filled paradox.

Agree?
J.

I believe you might have come "full circle" here. I agree that arguments are often petty and meaningless. No man is above question... Alternatively, all men answer to God. We can individually judge what facts and qualities of humanity we want in our own lives. Qualities that carry forward to teach those with whom we love and share inmate bonds with in this life. Debate helps us sharpen our responses and focus our thoughts to more closely align with God. Thus, pleasing God to whom we all singularly serve.

I avoid petty arguments but I seldom call out pettiness. I just avoid it myself.

There are good and bad things in all of us. What is public information is "free game". Most of the time the best thing a person can do is just claim "guilty as charged" and take solice in God's infinite mercy expressed toward all men.

Well said.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

this half of a millennium debate will continue on in another forum as stupidly and fruitlessly as in all the others.

Which is the primary reason that MY CHOICE is not to bother with "Man's systematics" at all. There's no value in 'em OTHER THAN human argumentation. They're only "theology", after all.

"Systematics" are WORTHLESS in getting folks Born again, which is a person to person exchange with the Holy Spirit - Paul limited HIS evangelism to "Jesus Christ and him crucified". And Systematics are worthless in Christian living, since it's the HOLY SPIRIT that Jesus sends us who leads into TRUTH.

Chuckle!!! I was Born again under "Baptist" outreach, and initially propagandized by them in "new converts class" (did you ever hear the "Antediluvian Ice shield" theory??) 60 years later, I've shed a good deal of it, and am not a "Cessationist", or a believer in "OSAS" any more.

 

[civic]

Which is the primary reason that MY CHOICE is not to bother with "Man's systematics" at all. There's no value in 'em OTHER THAN human argumentation. They're only "theology", after all.

"Systematics" are WORTHLESS in getting folks Born again, which is a person to person exchange with the Holy Spirit - Paul limited HIS evangelism to "Jesus Christ and him crucified". And Systematics are worthless in Christian living, since it's the HOLY SPIRIT that Jesus sends us who leads into TRUTH.

Chuckle!!! I was Born again under "Baptist" outreach, and initially propagandized by them in "new converts class" (did you ever hear the "Antediluvian Ice shield" theory??) 60 years later, I've shed a good deal of it, and am not a "Cessationist", or a believer in "OSAS" any more.

Amen my friend I can hear that banjo playing a tune to the above.

 

[Dizerner]

Amen my friend I can hear that banjo playing a tune to the above.

Especially the no more OSAS part.

 

[Dizerner]

Which is the primary reason that MY CHOICE is not to bother with "Man's systematics" at all. There's no value in 'em OTHER THAN human argumentation. They're only "theology", after all.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to anti-intellectualism, however I believe there is a real place for describing and defending doctrines.

The Bible uses the word "doctrines" so it must mean something, and be important.

 

[civic]

I'm somewhat sympathetic to anti-intellectualism, however I believe there is a real place for describing and defending doctrines.

The Bible uses the word "doctrines" so it must mean something, and be important.

In the essentials unity
In the non essentials liberty
In all things charity.

The question becomes what is essential to salvation, that is the debate. What are the essential must be believed doctrines that are salvific ?

 

[atpollard]

The question becomes what is essential to salvation, that is the debate. What are the essential must be believed doctrines that are salvific ?

Not much ... remember that God used 5 loaves and 2 fish to feed 5000 people with BASKETS full of leftovers.
God can do a LOT with just a LITTLE.

• Romans 10:9-10 [NLT] If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

[NLT is not the greatest translation, but just two verses in that translation contain enough TRUTH for God to work with and save someone.]
Soli Deo Gloria ... indeed!

 

[civic]

Not much ... remember that God used 5 loaves and 2 fish to feed 5000 people with BASKETS full of leftovers.
God can do a LOT with just a LITTLE.

• Romans 10:9-10 [NLT] If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

[NLT is not the greatest translation, but just two verses in that translation contain enough TRUTH for God to work with and save someone.]
Soli Deo Gloria ... indeed!

Amen !

 

[GeneZ]

Which is the primary reason that MY CHOICE is not to bother with "Man's systematics" at all. There's no value in 'em OTHER THAN human argumentation. They're only "theology", after all.

"Systematics" are WORTHLESS in getting folks Born again, which is a person to person exchange with the Holy Spirit - Paul limited HIS evangelism to "Jesus Christ and him crucified". And Systematics are worthless in Christian living, since it's the HOLY SPIRIT that Jesus sends us who leads into TRUTH.

Chuckle!!! I was Born again under "Baptist" outreach, and initially propagandized by them in "new converts class" (did you ever hear the "Antediluvian Ice shield" theory??) 60 years later, I've shed a good deal of it, and am not a "Cessationist", or a believer in "OSAS" any more.

So.... you have nothing to think with... great.

You just eat, drink, sleep.. and don't dare try to organize your theological thinking.

And to be quick to reject what makes you hurt to think over.

Learn to correct their errors! Not become a vacuum.

Sorry I said that. That might make you have to think.

 

[360watt]

Which is the primary reason that MY CHOICE is not to bother with "Man's systematics" at all. There's no value in 'em OTHER THAN human argumentation. They're only "theology", after all.

"Systematics" are WORTHLESS in getting folks Born again, which is a person to person exchange with the Holy Spirit - Paul limited HIS evangelism to "Jesus Christ and him crucified". And Systematics are worthless in Christian living, since it's the HOLY SPIRIT that Jesus sends us who leads into TRUTH.

Chuckle!!! I was Born again under "Baptist" outreach, and initially propagandized by them in "new converts class" (did you ever hear the "Antediluvian Ice shield" theory??) 60 years later, I've shed a good deal of it, and am not a "Cessationist", or a believer in "OSAS" any more.

Weeeeell.. I was born again under "Charismatic" outreach, and intially propagandized by them in "youth camp", 30 years later, I've shed a good deal of it, and I am a not a "Continuationist", or a believer in "Works salvation" anymore!

These are labels man. It's knowing the Word of God and applying that which counts.

 

[atpollard]

Weeeeell.. I was born again under "Charismatic" outreach, and intially propagandized by them in "youth camp", 30 years later, I've shed a good deal of it, and I am a not a "Continuationist", or a believer in "Works salvation" anymore!

These are labels man. It's knowing the Word of God and applying that which counts.

Isn't it ironic that the people with the THEOLOGICAL TRUTH sat rotting in their pews, while the people that were THEOLOGICAL CRACKPOTS were out in the world actually spreading the news of the Kingdom. I'm not sure WHICH group I would rather be counted among when I meet Jesus in Heaven ... I think I'll stand with the "charismatics" out of "fellowship" [they always seemed more ready to welcome and less ready to judge].

[Which may be pretty controversial for a 5-point Calvinist.]

 

[360watt]

Isn't it ironic that the people with the THEOLOGICAL TRUTH sat rotting in their pews, while the people that were THEOLOGICAL CRACKPOTS were out in the world actually spreading the news of the Kingdom. I'm not sure WHICH group I would rather be counted among when I meet Jesus in Heaven ... I think I'll stand with the "charismatics" out of "fellowship" [they always seemed more ready to welcome and less ready to judge].

[Which may be pretty controversial for a 5-point Calvinist.]

Yeah well giving up OSAS to me would be ignoring biblical context of salvation passages. Same goes for giving up cessationism ...although I'm not hung up on saying ministry gifts have also ceased... I think they have but someone into them- it doesnt seem much different than having talent for something.

But yeah.. the labels get in the way of just objectively looking at what the Bible is saying

 

[GeneZ]

Yeah well giving up OSAS to me would be ignoring biblical context of salvation passages. Same goes for giving up cessationism ...although I'm not hung up on saying ministry gifts have also ceased... I think they have but someone into them- it doesnt seem much different than having talent for something.

But yeah.. the labels get in the way of just objectively looking at what the Bible is saying

How can an omniscient God?
Who knew every sin in history?
And placed all those sins upon Jesus on the Cross?
Forget something and allow someone who believed in Him to perish because of some sin?

Those who fear OSAS have a problem in understanding God's nature.

just a rant.... grace and peace.

 

[atpollard]

Yeah well giving up OSAS to me would be ignoring biblical context of salvation passages. Same goes for giving up cessationism ...although I'm not hung up on saying ministry gifts have also ceased... I think they have but someone into them- it doesnt seem much different than having talent for something.

But yeah.. the labels get in the way of just objectively looking at what the Bible is saying

Once Saved Always Saved is just sloppy terminology that got adopted to mean something that VERY FEW people actually teach and the BIBLE NEVER SAYS. Jesus will most certainly lose NONE that the father has given Him and Jesus WILL raise them all on the last day. That does not, and has never meant, that one can be TRANSFORMED by the Holy Spirit (the essence of "saved") and continue to live a REPROBATE lifestyle.