Why Calvinism is a bad thing.

[civic]

Well when you put it like that! But that badly distorts Calvinism and it also badly distorts God.

You see the gospel goes to all the world so it is not withheld from those millions of people. They do have the chance to escape their fate---which is the fate of us all without Christ. They don't believe the gospel when they hear it because they want nothing to do with it. They prefer their sin. It is the natural condition of all men. Something must change inside of a man before He does believe the gospel and He wants Jesus. And it is something man cannot do inside himself. He can't change his nature.

What changes is an act of God. And if you think it is unfair that He doesn't do that in everyone think again who you are dealing with and telling what is fair and unfair. He says quite plainly "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy." And Paul expounding on this says,"Who are you o man to talk back to God?" He doesn't owe anyone anything. So I would think twice before I demanded justice and instead ask for mercy.

You did not quote a single verse to support your position and only alluded to one removed from the context of nations not individuals. That is called presuppositionalIsm .

hope this helps!!!

 

[dwight92070]

Well when you put it like that! But that badly distorts Calvinism and it also badly distorts God.

You see the gospel goes to all the world so it is not withheld from those millions of people. They do have the chance to escape their fate---which is the fate of us all without Christ. They don't believe the gospel when they hear it because they want nothing to do with it. They prefer their sin. It is the natural condition of all men. Something must change inside of a man before He does believe the gospel and He wants Jesus. And it is something man cannot do inside himself. He can't change his nature.

What changes is an act of God. And if you think it is unfair that He doesn't do that in everyone think again who you are dealing with and telling what is fair and unfair. He says quite plainly "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy." And Paul expounding on this says,"Who are you o man to talk back to God?" He doesn't owe anyone anything. So I would think twice before I demanded justice and instead ask for mercy.

Like I said, the Calvinist "God" chooses who He wants to "act on" and save and who He does not "act on" and send to hell. Yes, the Calvinist God is a false god, because He does NOT act justly, but we know that the God of the Bible IS just. So I didn't distort Calvinism in the least. Rather, you distort the Bible and have a twisted Calvinist view of God. If I were you, I would think twice about believing that the God of the Bible is not just. The God of the Bible promises salvation to ALL MANKIND, if they choose to believe in Jesus, not just a part of mankind. If He later changes His mind and decides to give salvation only to those who he "acts on", then he has deceived us and invalidated His own promise.

"For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him SHOULD NOT PERISH, but have everlasting life."

John 3:16

 

[e v e]

the only to be judged are the evil entities and those who willfully give them allegiance...

God's souls will be rescued from here.....

 

[e v e]

Like I said, the Calvinist "God" chooses who He wants to "act on" and save and who He does not "act on" and send to hell.

it's more that the evil ones and their esaus already chose, who to give their loyalty to, made eden fall and hate God. It is a war. Not God just randomly for no reason judging. That would make Him nonsensical and cruel... the cruelty is all from the satanic realm, directed at us, God's souls....

the point is to keep the evil realm away from us...
they did enough damage already no?
and now when we return Home
we will be safe
and our paradise will be safe

 

[dwight92070]

Like I said, the Calvinist "God" chooses who He wants to "act on" and save and who He does not "act on" and send to hell. Yes, the Calvinist God is a false god, because He does NOT act justly, but we know that the God of the Bible IS just. So I didn't distort Calvinism in the least. Rather, you distort the Bible and have a twisted Calvinist view of God. If I were you, I would think twice about believing that the God of the Bible is not just. The God of the Bible promises salvation to ALL MANKIND, if they choose to believe in Jesus, not just a part of mankind. If He later changes His mind and decides to give salvation only to those who he "acts on", then he has deceived us and invalidated His own promise.

"For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him SHOULD NOT PERISH, but have everlasting life."

John 3:16

You said that "they DO have the chance to escape their fate"! Not if your Calvinist "God" decides to not "act on" them! With your false god, their fate is sealed, some will be "elect", the rest are ASSIGNED to NO ESCAPE from hell. The God of the Bible is not unjust and wicked as your god is.

 

[Arial]

Like I said, the Calvinist "God" chooses who He wants to "act on" and save and who He does not "act on" and send to hell. Yes, the Calvinist God is a false god, because He does NOT act justly, but we know that the God of the Bible IS just. So I didn't distort Calvinism in the least. Rather, you distort the Bible and have a twisted Calvinist view of God. If I were you, I would think twice about believing that the God of the Bible is not just. The God of the Bible promises salvation to ALL MANKIND, if they choose to believe in Jesus, not just a part of mankind. If He later changes His mind and decides to give salvation only to those who he "acts on", then he has deceived us and invalidated His own promise.

"For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him SHOULD NOT PERISH, but have everlasting life."

John 3:16

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”






14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?


One thing you should be able to admit to yourself is that Calvinism draws its doctrines from scripture and a solid doctrine of God. The fact that you don't like it is beside the point. You have given nothing to support that what this passage in Romans 9 says means something besides what it says. All you give is your emotional opinion based on your image of God.

 

[Arial]

You did not quote a single verse to support your position and only alluded to one removed from the context of nations not individuals. That is called presuppositionalIsm .

hope this helps!!!

What changes is an act of God. And if you think it is unfair that He doesn't do that in everyone think again who you are dealing with and telling what is fair and unfair. He says quite plainly "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy." And Paul expounding on this says,"Who are you o man to talk back to God?" He doesn't owe anyone anything. So I would think twice before I demanded justice and instead ask for mercy.

And the poster I responded to really didn't give any. Why aren't you on their case? #380

 

[Rockson]

Well when you put it like that! But that badly distorts Calvinism and it also badly distorts God.

I have to agree with the other poster. You paradigm way of thinking about God DOES NOT reflect the God of the Bible. Sorry but it just doesn't.

You see the gospel goes to all the world so it is not withheld from those millions of people. They do have the chance to escape their fate---

If I asked YOU if you believed in the WCF I'm guessing you'd probably say YES. And you'd be saying yes knowing all the time, or perhaps not knowing that the WCF states God ordains everything which takes place. If that's your position too everything you're believing in is like an oxymoron. You'd be saying all have a chance to escape....BUT NOT A REALY CHANCE. Sorry Arial but something that's not a real chance isn't one at all.

 

[civic]

I have to agree with the other poster. You paradigm way of thinking about God DOES NOT reflect the God of the Bible. Sorry but it just doesn't.

If I asked YOU if you believed in the WCF I'm guessing you'd probably say YES. And you'd be saying yes knowing all the time, or perhaps not knowing that the WCF states God ordains everything which takes place. If that's your position too everything you're believing in is like an oxymoron. You'd be saying all have a chance to escape....BUT NOT A REALY CHANCE. Sorry Arial but something that's not a real chance isn't one at all.

Exactly. It affirms what Calvin termed the horrific doctrine called double predestination.

“ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death. - WCF 3.3 “

It’s not only a bad and unbiblical doctrine it’s horrific and an assault on Gods goodness , love and character.

 

[dwight92070]

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”






14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?


One thing you should be able to admit to yourself is that Calvinism draws its doctrines from scripture and a solid doctrine of God. The fact that you don't like it is beside the point. You have given nothing to support that what this passage in Romans 9 says means something besides what it says. All you give is your emotional opinion based on your image of God.

Calvinism draws it's doctines from misinterpreting that passage. Civic was correct. The reference to Esau and Jacob is referring to the nations of Edom and Israel, not the individuals. All you have to do is look at Malachi 1:1-4, the old testament verses that Paul is quoting from to see that. In verse 3 the Lord says, " ... but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation ... men will call them 'the wicked territory'." So the Lord is saying, "I have loved Jacob (Israel), but I have hated Esau (Edom).

If that's not enough evidence, then look at Romans 9:12: "it was said to her, 'The older will serve the younger'." Well, in their lifetime, Esau NEVER served Jacob, but Edom, the nation, DID serve Israel, the nation. God was not assigning salvation to Jacob and damnation to Esau. Rather it appears that He was choosing Jacob and the nation of Israel, to be the nation through whom Abraham's blessing would flow (look at verse 7)and the Messiah would come. Esau could have repented of his sin, but it seems as though he didn't.

Also God was not hardening Pharaoh's, so that he would be eternally lost. He hardened his heart, so that He could continue to pour out His judgment on Pharaoh and all of Egypt. Had Pharaoh not hardened his own heart, he could have repented, but apparently he never did.

 

[civic]

Calvinism draws it's doctines from misinterpreting that passage. Civic was correct. The reference to Esau and Jacob is referring to the nations of Edom and Israel, not the individuals. All you have to do is look at Malachi 1:1-4, the old testament verses that Paul is quoting from to see that. In verse 3 the Lord says, " ... but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation ... men will call them 'the wicked territory'." So the Lord is saying, "I have loved Jacob (Israel), but I have hated Esau (Edom).

If that's not enough evidence, then look at Romans 9:12: "it was said to her, 'The older will serve the younger'." Well, in their lifetime, Esau NEVER served Jacob, but Edom, the nation, DID serve Israel, the nation. God was not assigning salvation to Jacob and damnation to Esau. Rather it appears that He was choosing Jacob and the nation of Israel, to be the nation through whom Abraham's blessing would flow (look at verse 7)and the Messiah would come. Esau could have repented of his sin, but it seems as though he didn't.

Also God was not hardening Pharaoh's, so that he would be eternally lost. He hardened his heart, so that He could continue to pour out His judgment on Pharaoh and all of Egypt. Had Pharaoh not hardened his own heart, he could have repented, but apparently he never did.

Well said

 

[Darby]

@Administrator

I see I cannot send a PM to @Darby . Has he been removed from the site?

I’m still here on the site. I think I had some sort of internet problem. I was able to sign on but it was very slow.,

Or I could have been doing something wrong on my end? No matter what I tried nothing seemed to work.

 

[civic]

I’m still here on the site. I think I had some sort of internet problem. I was able to sign on but it was very slow.,

Or I could have been doing something wrong on my end? No matter what I tried nothing seemed to work.

Glad to hear it’s working now .

 

[Arial]

I’m still here on the site. I think I had some sort of internet problem. I was able to sign on but it was very slow.,

Or I could have been doing something wrong on my end? No matter what I tried nothing seemed to work.

I guess they disabled PM for awhile but sounds like you were having different problems with internet. I hadn't seen you around and wondered if you got discouraged.

 

[Arial]

With your false god, their fate is sealed, some will be "elect", the rest are ASSIGNED to NO ESCAPE from hell. The God of the Bible is not unjust and wicked as your god is.

Exactly. It affirms what Calvin termed the horrific doctrine called double predestination.

Exactly. It affirms what Calvin termed the horrific doctrine called double predestination.

“ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death. - WCF 3.3 “

It’s not only a bad and unbiblical doctrine it’s horrific and an assault on Gods goodness , love and character.

Yes, the Calvinist God is a false god, because He does NOT act justly, but we know that the God of the Bible IS just.

If you call that grace, it only shows how Calvinism has twisted your mind. That's not the God of the Bible. That's a communist dictator.

@ dizerner started a thread Calvinists--- I Love You in which he claimed to have been mistreated by Calvinists. As though all the "hate"speech only comes from them. As though those opposed to this theology never engage in verbal abuse. That they should be treated with dignity and respect. So just for the record that in itself is abusive and degrading to a whole group and I get tired of the accusation. Do the quotes above show that Calvinists are given dignity and respect?

 

[Dizerner]

@ dizerner started a thread Calvinists--- I Love You in which he claimed to have been mistreated by Calvinists. As though all the "hate"speech only comes from them.

That's a lie.

I never once said nor implied "the hate speech only comes from them."

You completely added that in all by yourself, and changed what I said, and misrepresented my entire message.

It does not logically follow from anything I ever said—it is a complete non sequitur.

You imagined and made up evil motives, and then attributed them to me as fact, judging my heart.

And it's not the first time you have sinfully slandered me.

So just for the record that in itself is abusive and degrading to a whole group and I get tired of the accusation

No, it's not you falsely accusing slanderer.

You are making this accusation up out of thin air and it does not logically follow from what I said.

Do the quotes above show that Calvinists are given dignity and respect?

Are those quotes mine, you slanderer and liar?

Why do you think I posted it?

A person who truly loved you would say this:

Repent before God.

 

[civic]

@ dizerner started a thread Calvinists--- I Love You in which he claimed to have been mistreated by Calvinists. As though all the "hate"speech only comes from them. As though those opposed to this theology never engage in verbal abuse. That they should be treated with dignity and respect. So just for the record that in itself is abusive and degrading to a whole group and I get tired of the accusation. Do the quotes above show that Calvinists are given dignity and respect?

I quoted Calvin and the WCF verbatim. I'm quoting their own teaching.

How is that hateful ?

If you said provisionists have autonomous free will is that hateful ? no because its what they believe

If you said JW's deny the Deity of Christ is that hateful ? no its what they believe

How is that disrespectful quoting what a systematic theology believes ?

 

[Dizerner]

Just stating how you understand a person's position is not being unloving. You may make some mistake honestly attempting to understand, and that's part of the process.

And if a person doublespeaks, you can never state a paradoxical incomprehensible illogical position correctly in the eyes of one who holds it, unless you repeat back logical errors.

Some people will say you misrepresent them no matter what you say.

 

[civic]

Yes when I use to say on the other forum fatalism is Calvinism which is determinism they would get mad. Then I would provide the definition of fatalism and quote Calvinists saying the same thing I would get the denial we are not fatalists . Sometimes it’s difficult to look in the mirror and see what is actually reflected.

 

[Arial]

I quoted Calvin and the WCF verbatim. I'm quoting their own teaching.

How is that hateful ?

If you said provisionists have autonomous free will is that hateful ? no because its what they believe

If you said JW's deny the Deity of Christ is that hateful ? no its what they believe

How is that disrespectful quoting what a systematic theology believes ?

You quote their teaching and give your own interpretation of what that means. Irregardless of the time and effort someone takes to give the correct interpretation---just as you do with proof texts from the Bible when an alternate and legitimate one is given that begins from a different premise. Dizerner marks my post angry as though to say, "Don't disagree with me it makes me angry and then posts this:

And it's not the first time you have sinfully slandered me.

No, it's not you falsely accusing slanderer.

Are those quotes mine, you slanderer and liar?

And in case you can't discern what is disrespectful and removes dignity in those posts I quoted, I will point it out.
"The God of the Bible is not wicked and unjust as your god is." Dwight
"It affirms what Calvin termed?the wicked and horrific doctrine of double predestination." Civic
"It is not only a bad and unbiblical doctrine but is an assault on God's goodness" Civic
"The Calvinist God is a false god because He does not act justly." Dwight
"If you call that grace it only shows how Calvinism has twisted your mind."

If a Calvinist says anything remotely like any of that and the hundreds of other insults that have been bandied at Calvinists, they cry crocodile tears of not being treated with dignity and Calvinist are deemed hateful. Now, I don't get upset and when it happens to me, and don't seek retribution. I am just pointing out the hyporacy.