Why Calvinism is a bad thing.

You quote their teaching and give your own interpretation of what that means. Irregardless of the time and effort someone takes to give the correct interpretation---just as you do with proof texts from the Bible when an alternate and legitimate one is given that begins from a different premise. Dizerner marks my post angry as though to say, "Don't disagree with me it makes me angry and then posts this:



And in case you can't discern what is disrespectful and removes dignity in those posts I quoted, I will point it out.
"The God of the Bible is not wicked and unjust as your god is." Dwight
"It affirms what Calvin termed?the wicked and horrific doctrine of double predestination." Civic
"It is not only a bad and unbiblical doctrine but is an assault on God's goodness" Civic
"The Calvinist God is a false god because He does not act justly." Dwight
"If you call that grace it only shows how Calvinism has twisted your mind."

If a Calvinist says anything remotely like any of that and the hundreds of other insults that have been bandied at Calvinists, they cry crocodile tears of not being treated with dignity and Calvinist are deemed hateful. Now, I don't get upset and :mad: when it happens to me, and don't seek retribution. I am just pointing out the hyporacy.
Like I said I quote Calvinist sources to support my points. That why no one can say I'm misrepresenting calvinism. I don't since I was one for 40 plus years and know its doctrines like the back of my hand and can quote them in my sleep.

I speak from both knowledge and experience as a calvinist arguing for calvinism and debating non calvinists most of my life.

Non Calvinist poster/members of this very forum can confirm that fact. @sethproton @Rockson @dizerner @synergy @TibiasDad @PeanutGallery @praise_yeshua just to name a few.

hope this helps !!!
 
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@ dizerner started a thread Calvinists--- I Love You in which he claimed to have been mistreated by Calvinists. As though all the "hate"speech only comes from them. As though those opposed to this theology never engage in verbal abuse. That they should be treated with dignity and respect. So just for the record that in itself is abusive and degrading to a whole group and I get tired of the accusation. Do the quotes above show that Calvinists are given dignity and respect?
Just because I said the Calvinists "God" is a false god, you call that disrespect? The scriptures tell us clearly that God is just and fair and encourage us to be the same. So when you describe a "God" who arbitrarily consigns some to heaven and some to hell, with no regard for their repentance or lack of it, but strictly because of what he wants - you are describing a god other than the God of the Bible. That's what is called a false god. Just as you said to me, you may not like it, but that's a prime example of a false god. I said nothing disrespectful toward you. But I do have great disrespect for the false and deceptive teaching of John Calvin and Augustine.
 
I trust that you brothers and sisters will be able to work this out on your own. Remember it's okay to disagree with each other. It's okay to disagree with our different theologies. As long as it's done in a respectful manner. In other words, you can attack the post All you like, but not the poster.
 
So when you describe a "God" who arbitrarily consigns some to heaven and some to hell, with no regard for their repentance or lack of it, but strictly because of what he wants - you are describing a god other than the God of the Bible.
I don't describe a God who arbitrarily does anything and neither does Calvinism. That is how you describe the doctrine. Scripture says this about it: Eph 1:5 In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will

That is not arbitrary.
I said nothing disrespectful toward you. But I do have great disrespect for the false and deceptive teaching of John Calvin and Augustine.

Do you not know that when you disrespect a doctrine by calling it a false God and deceptive that that falls on the heads of those who believe that doctrine? It is possible to dispute the doctrine without saying things like that.
 
No Calvinism doesn't. It agrees with the Bible that God knew them before the foundation of the world, and predestined them to come to Christ, and in His timing He called them. His sheep hear that voice and follow Him. They hear of Jesus and the good news and believe what they hear. Then they are in Christ.

ARTICLE 7: ELECTION

Election [or choosing] is God’s unchangeable purpose by which he did the following:

Before the foundation of the world, by sheer grace, according to the free good pleasure of his will, he chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race, which had fallen by its own fault from its original innocence into sin and ruin. Those chosen were neither better nor more deserving than the others, but lay with them in the common misery. He did this in Christ, whom he also appointed from eternity to be the mediator, the head of all those chosen, and the foundation of their salvation.

From a Calvinist who affirms what I said is also true in calvinism

Election “in Christ.” When Paul speaks of God’s choosing us “in him” (Eph. 1:4, 11), he refers to union with Christ. In these places, Paul says that God chose people before the foundation of the world (v. 4). In every other case when Paul uses the phrase “in Christ,” except for 2 Timothy 1:9, he tells of God’s uniting people to Christ in history. God’s choosing us “in him before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1:4; see also v. 11) speaks of our union with Christ before creation. But because we did not exist before our creation, Paul speaks of God’s plan to unite us to Christ.

Though Arminianism holds that election “in Christ” means that God chose people for salvation based on his foreknowledge of their faith in Christ, Paul does not speak of a condition that sinners must meet in order for God to choose them. Paul’s words do not speak of human beings’ response, but of God’s sovereign will. It is the same in Ephesians 1:11, where Paul says, “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” The apostle teaches that God not only chose a people for himself, but also chose the means by which he would actually save that people—he would send his Son and Spirit and unite them to Christ in saving grace.
Robert A. Peterson, Election and Free Will: God’s Gracious Choice and Our Responsibility

So I have 2 sources that support me and oppose your view. And you claim God knew them. Knowing someone means having relationship with them in scripture. You do not know someone before they exist. You know someone over time through a relationship.

Does this passage state that he chose us individually to be effectually placed in him, or does it simply state, “he chose us in him?” Does it teach that Christ redeems us individually so that we might be irresistibly put in him or does it only teach, “In him we have redemption?” Does it say that God has chosen individuals to be in him, or does it say, “in him we were also chosen?”

  • Has God chosen individuals to be placed in Him?
  • Or, has God chosen individuals who are in Him?
Put another way…

  • Has God predetermined the individuals to be in the group?
  • Or, has God chosen a group of individuals for a predetermined end?
Some focus so much attention on the first 12 verses that they fail to see the last two verses where Paul gives an answer to this vital question; “How does one come to be in Him?”

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

First question: When were they included in Christ?

Was it before the foundation of the earth? What answer does the text give?

“…when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.”

Let’s continue to read:

When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Second question: When were they marked in Him?

Was it before the world began and without any regard to their response to the gospel? What does the text say?

“When you believed, you were marked in him…”

The text seems to clearly indicate that God has predetermined that the “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (vs. 1) will become “holy and blameless” (sanctification – vs. 4) and they will be “adopted” (glorification – vs. 5). (Note: Romans 8:23 clearly indicates that Paul sees “adoption” as a future hope for all who come to faith.)soteriology 101

hope this helps !!!
 
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You quote their teaching and give your own interpretation of what that means. Irregardless of the time and effort someone takes to give the correct interpretation---just as you do with proof texts from the Bible when an alternate and legitimate one is given that begins from a different premise. Dizerner marks my post angry as though to say, "Don't disagree with me it makes me angry and then posts this:



And in case you can't discern what is disrespectful and removes dignity in those posts I quoted, I will point it out.
"The God of the Bible is not wicked and unjust as your god is." Dwight
"It affirms what Calvin termed?the wicked and horrific doctrine of double predestination." Civic
"It is not only a bad and unbiblical doctrine but is an assault on God's goodness" Civic
"The Calvinist God is a false god because He does not act justly." Dwight
"If you call that grace it only shows how Calvinism has twisted your mind."

If a Calvinist says anything remotely like any of that and the hundreds of other insults that have been bandied at Calvinists, they cry crocodile tears of not being treated with dignity and Calvinist are deemed hateful. Now, I don't get upset and :mad: when it happens to me, and don't seek retribution. I am just pointing out the hyporacy.
None of the above is personal attacks, its attacking calvin and his doctrines, not you.

It would be the same thing if I claimed to be an Arminian and all those same things were said about Arminius. Just substitute calvin and his beliefs with Arminius below. Or Flowers with Provisionism.

"The God of the Bible is not wicked and unjust as your god is." Dwight
"It affirms what calvin termed?the wicked and horrific doctrine of double predestination." Civic
"It is not only a bad and unbiblical doctrine but is an assault on God's goodness" Civic
"The Calvinist God is a false god because He does not act justly." Dwight
"If you call that grace it only shows how Calvinism has twisted your mind."
 
ARTICLE 7: ELECTION
PREDESTINATION (CALVINISM) VS. HUMAN FREE WILL (ARMINIANISM)

Titus 2:11 is a balance to other NT passages on election. I thought it might be theologically helpful to provide my commentary notes from Romans 8:29 and chapter 9, as well as Ephesians 1.

I. Romans 8:29 – Paul uses "foreknew" (proginōskō, "to know before") twice, here and 11:2. In 11:2 it refers to God's covenant love for Israel before time began. Remember that the term "know" in Hebrew related to intimate, personal relationship, not to facts about someone (cf. Gen. 4:1; Jer. 1:5). Here it was included in a chain of eternal events (cf. Rom. 8:29-30). This term was linked with predestination. However, it must be stated that God's foreknowledge is not the basis of election because if that were so, then election would be based on fallen humanity's future response, which would be human performance. This term is also found in Acts 26:5; 1 Pet. 1:2,20 and 2 Pet. 3:17.

A. "foreknew" (proginōskō, "to know before")

The terms "foreknow" and "predestine" are both compounds with the preposition "before" and, therefore, should be translated "to know before," "to set bounds before," or "mark off before." The definitive passages on predestination in the NT are Rom. 8:28-30; Eph. 1:13-14; and Romans 9. These texts obviously stress that God is sovereign. He is in total control of all things. There is a preset divine plan being worked out in time. However, this plan is not arbitrary or selective. It is based, not only on God's sovereignty and foreknowledge, but on His unchanging character of love, mercy, and undeserved grace.

We must be careful of our western (American) individualism or our evangelical zeal coloring this wonderful truth. We must also guard against being polarized into the historical, theological conflicts between Augustine versus Pelegius or Calvinism versus Arminianism.

B. "predestined" (proorizō, "to set the bounds before")

Predestination is not a doctrine meant to limit God's love, grace, and mercy nor to exclude some from the gospel. It is meant to strengthen believers by molding their worldview. God is for all mankind (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). God is in control of all things. Who or what can separate us from Him (cf. Rom. 8:31-39)? God views all history as present; humans are time bound. Our perspective and mental abilities are limited. There is no contradiction between God's sovereignty and mankind's free will. It is a covenantal structure. This is another example of truth given in dialectical tension. Biblical doctrines are presented from different perspectives. They often appear paradoxical. The truth is a balance between the seemingly opposite pairs. We must not remove the tension by picking one of the truths. We must not isolate any biblical truth into a compartment by itself.

It is also important to add that the goal of election is not only heaven when we die, but Christlikeness now (cf. Rom. 8:29-30; 2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 2:10; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:13; Titus 2:14; 1 Pet. 1:15). We were chosen to be "holy and blameless." God chooses to change us so that others may see the change and respond by faith to God in Christ. Predestination is not a personal privilege, but a covenantal responsibility. This is the major truth of the passage. This is the goal of Christianity. Holiness is God's will for every believer. God's election is to Christlikeness (cf. Eph. 1:4), not a special standing. The image of God, which was given to man in creation (cf. Gen. 1:26; 5:1,3; 9:6), is to be restored.

C. "conformed to the image of His Son"—God's ultimate goal is the restoration of the image lost in the Fall. Believers are foreordained to Christlikeness (cf. Eph. 1:4).



II. Romans 9

A. Romans 9 is one of the strongest NT passages on God's sovereignty (the other being Eph. 1:3-14), while chapter 10 states humans' free will clearly and repeatedly (cf. "everyone" Rom. 9:4; "whosoever" 9:11,13; "all" 9:12 [twice]). Paul never tries to reconcile this theological tension. They are both true! Most Bible doctrines are presented in paradoxical or dialectical pairs. Most systems of theology are logical half-truths. Augustinianism and Calvinism versus semi-Pelegianism and Arminianism have elements of truth and error. Biblical tension between doctrines is preferable to a proof-texted, dogmatic, rational, theological system that forces the Bible onto a preconceived interpretive grid.

B. This same truth (found in Rom. 9:23) is stated in Rom. 8:29-30 and Eph. 1:4,11. This chapter is the strongest expression of God's sovereignty in the NT. There can be no dispute that God is in total charge of creation and redemption. This great truth should never be softened or diminished. However, it must be balanced with God's choice of covenant as a means of relating to human creation, made in His image. It is surely true that some OT covenants, like Genesis 15, are unconditional and do not relate at all to human response, but other covenants are conditioned on human response (e.g., Eden, Noah, Moses, David). God has a plan of redemption for His creation; no human can affect this plan. God has chosen to allow individuals to participate in His plans. This opportunity for participation is a theological tension between sovereignty (Romans 9) and human free will (Romans 10).

It is not appropriate to select one biblical emphasis and ignore another. There is tension between doctrines because eastern people present truth in dialectical or tension-filled pairs. Doctrines must be held in relationship to other doctrines. Truth is a mosaic of truths.



III. Ephesians 1

A. Election is a wonderful doctrine. However, it is not a call to favoritism, but a call to be a channel, a tool, or means of others' redemption! In the OT the term was used primarily for service; in the NT it is used primarily for salvation which issues in service. The Bible never reconciles the seeming contradiction between God's sovereignty and mankind's free will, but affirms them both! A good example of the biblical tension would be Romans 9 on God's sovereign choice and Romans 10 on mankind's necessary response (cf. 10:11,13).

The key to this theological tension may be found in 1:4. Jesus is God's elect man and all are potentially elect in Him (Karl Barth). Jesus is God's "yes" to fallen mankind's need (Karl Barth). Ephesians 1:4 also helps clarify the issue by asserting that the goal of predestination is not heaven only, but holiness (Christlikeness). We are often attracted to the benefits of the gospel and ignore the responsibilities! God's call (election) is for time as well as eternity!

Doctrines come in relation to other truths, not as single, unrelated truths. A good analogy would be a constellation versus a single star. God presents truth in eastern, not western, genres. We must not remove the tension caused by dialectical (paradoxical) pairs of doctrinal truths (God as transcendent versus God as immanent; security vs. perseverance; Jesus as equal with the Father vs. Jesus as subservient to the Father; Christian freedom vs. Christian responsibility to a covenant partner, etc).

The theological concept of "covenant" unites the sovereignty of God (who always takes the initiative and sets the agenda) with a mandatory initial and continuing repentant faith response from man. Be careful of proof-texting one side of the paradox and depreciating the other! Be careful of asserting only your favorite doctrine or system of theology.

B. "He chose us" in Eph. 1:4 is an aorist middle indicative which emphasizes the subject. This focuses on the Father's choice before time. God's choice must not be understood in the Islamic sense of determinism, nor in the ultra-Calvinistic sense as some versus others, but in the covenantal sense. God promised to redeem fallen mankind (cf. Gen. 3:15). God called and chose Abraham to choose all humans (cf. Gen. 12:3; Exod. 19:5-6). God Himself elected all persons who would exercise faith in Christ. God always takes the initiative in salvation (cf. John 6:44,65). This text and Romans 9 are the biblical basis for the doctrine of predestination emphasized by Augustine and Calvin.

God chose believers not only to salvation (justification), but also to sanctification (cf. Colossians 1: 10-12). This could relate to (1) our position in Christ (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21) or (2) God's desire to reproduce His character in His children (cf. Eph. 2:10; Rom. 8:28-29; Gal. 4:19). God's will for His children is both heaven one day and Christlikeness now!

"In Him" is a key concept of Eph. 1:4. The Father's blessings, grace, and salvation flow through Christ (cf. John 14:6). Notice the repetition of this grammatical form (locative of sphere) in Eph. 1:3, "in Christ"; 1:4, "in Him"; 1:7, "in Him"; 1:9, "in Him"; 1:10, "in Christ," "in Him"; 1:12, "in Christ" and 1:13, "in Him" (twice). Jesus is God's "yes" to fallen mankind (Karl Barth). Jesus is the elect man and all are potentially elect in Him. All of God the Father's blessings flow through Christ.

Johann
 
None of the above is personal attacks, its attacking calvin and his doctrines, not you.

It would be the same thing if I claimed to be an Arminian and all those same things were said about Arminius. Just substitute calvin and his beliefs with Arminius below. Or Flowers with Provisionism.

"The God of the Bible is not wicked and unjust as your god is." Dwight
"It affirms what calvin termed?the wicked and horrific doctrine of double predestination." Civic
"It is not only a bad and unbiblical doctrine but is an assault on God's goodness" Civic
"The Calvinist God is a false god because He does not act justly." Dwight
"If you call that grace it only shows how Calvinism has twisted your mind."
 
To say your "God" is a false God is actually generous, compared to what kind of words came out of John Calvin himself. He called his critics "pigs, asses. riffraff, dogs, idiots, stinking beasts, and donkeys". He went further than that and believed that some "unrepentant heretics" should be executed. He consented to one Michael Servetus being burned at the stake - although he did prefer that he be beheaded instead, since that would be more "humane". Calvin made the statement that if Servetus came to Geneva, "I shall never permit him to depart alive." Calvin also said that whoever says that it is unjust to put heretics and blaphemers to death, will take on "their very guilt".

Given this wicked behavior of John Calvin, I wouldn't follow him across the street, let alone believe anything that came out of his mouth. Yes, he wasn't serving the God of the Bible and anyone today who follows that man's doctrine, in my opinion, is also following a false God. I would be ashamed to say that I was associated with John Calvin in any way.
 

ARTICLE 7: ELECTION

Election [or choosing] is God’s unchangeable purpose by which he did the following:

Before the foundation of the world, by sheer grace, according to the free good pleasure of his will, he chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race, which had fallen by its own fault from its original innocence into sin and ruin. Those chosen were neither better nor more deserving than the others, but lay with them in the common misery. He did this in Christ, whom he also appointed from eternity to be the mediator, the head of all those chosen, and the foundation of their salvation.

From a Calvinist who affirms what I said is also true in calvinism

Election “in Christ.” When Paul speaks of God’s choosing us “in him” (Eph. 1:4, 11), he refers to union with Christ. In these places, Paul says that God chose people before the foundation of the world (v. 4). In every other case when Paul uses the phrase “in Christ,” except for 2 Timothy 1:9, he tells of God’s uniting people to Christ in history. God’s choosing us “in him before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1:4; see also v. 11) speaks of our union with Christ before creation. But because we did not exist before our creation, Paul speaks of God’s plan to unite us to Christ.

Though Arminianism holds that election “in Christ” means that God chose people for salvation based on his foreknowledge of their faith in Christ, Paul does not speak of a condition that sinners must meet in order for God to choose them. Paul’s words do not speak of human beings’ response, but of God’s sovereign will. It is the same in Ephesians 1:11, where Paul says, “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.” The apostle teaches that God not only chose a people for himself, but also chose the means by which he would actually save that people—he would send his Son and Spirit and unite them to Christ in saving grace.
Robert A. Peterson, Election and Free Will: God’s Gracious Choice and Our Responsibility

So I have 2 sources that support me and oppose your view. And you claim God knew them. Knowing someone means having relationship with them in scripture. You do not know someone before they exist. You know someone over time through a relationship.

Does this passage state that he chose us individually to be effectually placed in him, or does it simply state, “he chose us in him?” Does it teach that Christ redeems us individually so that we might be irresistibly put in him or does it only teach, “In him we have redemption?” Does it say that God has chosen individuals to be in him, or does it say, “in him we were also chosen?”

  • Has God chosen individuals to be placed in Him?
  • Or, has God chosen individuals who are in Him?
Put another way…

  • Has God predetermined the individuals to be in the group?
  • Or, has God chosen a group of individuals for a predetermined end?
Some focus so much attention on the first 12 verses that they fail to see the last two verses where Paul gives an answer to this vital question; “How does one come to be in Him?”

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

First question: When were they included in Christ?

Was it before the foundation of the earth? What answer does the text give?

“…when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.”

Let’s continue to read:

When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Second question: When were they marked in Him?

Was it before the world began and without any regard to their response to the gospel? What does the text say?

“When you believed, you were marked in him…”

The text seems to clearly indicate that God has predetermined that the “the faithful in Christ Jesus” (vs. 1) will become “holy and blameless” (sanctification – vs. 4) and they will be “adopted” (glorification – vs. 5). (Note: Romans 8:23 clearly indicates that Paul sees “adoption” as a future hope for all who come to faith.)soteriology 101

hope this helps !!!

Something to peruse.
J.
 
To say your "God" is a false God is actually generous, compared to what kind of words came out of John Calvin himself. He called his critics "pigs, asses. riffraff, dogs, idiots, stinking beasts, and donkeys". He went further than that and believed that some "unrepentant heretics" should be executed. He consented to one Michael Servetus being burned at the stake - although he did prefer that he be beheaded instead, since that would be more "humane". Calvin made the statement that if Servetus came to Geneva, "I shall never permit him to depart alive." Calvin also said that whoever says that it is unjust to put heretics and blaphemers to death, will take on "their very guilt".

Given this wicked behavior of John Calvin, I wouldn't follow him across the street, let alone believe anything that came out of his mouth. Yes, he wasn't serving the God of the Bible and anyone today who follows that man's doctrine, in my opinion, is also following a false God. I would be ashamed to say that I was associated with John Calvin in any way.

Sword cuts both ways.
J.
 
Sword cuts both ways.
THE FOLLOWING PASSAGES ARE INTERPRETED DIFFERENTLY BY CALVINISTS AND ARMINIANS:
John 6:37
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
Calvinists argue that this passages teaches irresistible grace. The individual cannot refuse God's choice, therefore all those given to Christ will respond.

Arminians reply that "those given to me" in 37 are the same as those who "believe in him" in vs. 40. In other words, when God foresees that some will believe, he gives them to Christ. See that in vs. 45, those who "have heard and learned from the father" are the ones who "come to me."
John 6:44,65

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

The Calvinist holds that these passages teach total depravity, unconditional election, and also imply limited atonement and double predestination. This is because:
"No one can come to me unless . . . " because they are totally depraved
"it has been granted him from the Father" or "the Father draws him" meaning unconditional election. Unconditional in this case, because the cause is the father, not the individual.

Limited atonement and double predestination are usually inferred from the face that it is impossible to come to him without election. Therefore, those whom the Father has not drawn are naturally destined for judgement, and are therefore those for whom Christ did not die.

The Arminian agrees that these passages teach total depravity. However, they argue that the father draws all men to Christ (Jn. 12:32; 16:8). They further hold that to assign the cause exclusively to the Father ignores vss. 29; 35; 40; and 47. To attribute the cause exclusively to the Father regardless of the response of the person, flies in the face of the stated will of the Father in vs. 40 that "Everyone who beholds the Son and believes in him" be saved. Finally, with regard to limited atonement and double predestination, these positions depend on the earlier conclusion (unconditional election), and therefore beg the question.
John 15:16
"You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain..."

Some Calvinists (and Augustine) have argued that this a proof text for unconditional election, emphasizing the irrelevance of human choice.

Arminians point out that the statement is made to the disciples with reference to their apostleship, not to their salvation. This interpretation accords well with the next phrase "that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain." See also Jn. 6:70 referring to the same choice. Judas was chosen but not saved.
Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
The Calvinists argue that this verse teaches unconditional election, because it would have been easy to say "as many as believed were appointed eternal life" but the reverse is stated.
The Arminians point out that the participle translated "were appointed to" (tetagmenoi) is in the middle-passive voice. This means that the same form is used in Greek to designate both the middle voice and the passive voice. The NASB has translated it in the passive voice. However, if it is translated in the middle voice, the passage would read ". . .as many as set themselves to eternal life believed" (cf I Cor. 16:15 where the same participle is translated in the middle voice).
Romans 9:16,22,23

The Calvinist position is that Romans 9 teaches unconditional election and double predestination. This is because:
Vs. 16 "it [God's choice] does not depend on the man who wills"
Vs. 18 refers to double predestination.
Vs. 22, 23 refer to "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" and "vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory."

The election involved is not a national election, because vs. 24 states that the vessels of mercy are "us, whom He called not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles,"" (i.e. believing Christians).

Arminians argue that the first part of Romans 9 deals with God's choice of nations and their roles in his plans.
Vs. 1-5 make clear that the context is that of national choice. This is confirmed in verses 6,7 because all Israelites were not saved and all Ishmaelites were not damned. Also, in vs. 13 Malachi 3:2 is cited to demonstrate that God had favored the nation of Israel over the nation of Edom.
Vs. 16 refers to God's choice of how to lead the nation of Israel through the wilderness, which was independent of Moses's opinion. Personal salvation is not in view in the original passage (Ex. 33:19).
Vs. 18 is in the context of vs. 16 see above, and vs. 17 which refers to God's temporal destruction of the Egyptians when they wanted to destroy Israel. The verse teaches therefore, that God caused his choice of Israel to stand regardless of Moses' attempts to help or Pharoah's attempts to hinder. Neither Moses' nor Pharoah's personal salvation was in view in these passages.
Vs. 22,23 refers to nations which have either glorious or a judgmental role in history. God allows evil nations to exist, and often uses them to bless the chosen nation, Israel. Today, believers are able to participate in the covenant blessings of Israel, because they have been "grafted in to the rich root" of God's purpose in history.
Another explanation is that the "lump" of clay in vs. 21 refers to national Israel. God has the right to divide Israel into two vessels: unbelieving Israel, which has now become a vessel of wrath (for "prepared", read fit or suited to destruction), and believing Israel, which, along with believing Gentiles has become a vessel of mercy.

See why-to this day- Arminians and Calvinists cannot see eye to eye?

J.
 
Did God foreordain that Hitler would torture and murder 6,000,000 Jews, 5,000,000 other undesirables, and 70,000,000 soldiers? Calvinists would say "Yes".
 
Did God foreordain that Hitler would torture and murder 6,000,000 Jews, 5,000,000 other undesirables, and 70,000,000 soldiers? Calvinists would say "Yes".
The biblical answer is no.

Remember God delivers from evil and does not cause evil

Matthew 6:9-13

“Pray, then, in this way:

‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 ‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 ‘Give us this day [e]our daily bread.
12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

John 17:15
I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

2 Thessalonians 3:2-3
And that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

1 Chronicles 4:10

And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.

Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…

Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

hope this helps !!!
 
@dwight92070 is wrong in his assertion and to paint Calvin black with his statement re Hitler.
Many here are Calvinists and don't even know it.
J.
But their doctrine from the WCF and numerous Calvinist theologians affirm determinism and double predestination does just that which included evil.
 
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