civic
Well-known member
when you say God causes evil and sin its an oxymoron when God is Holy, Righteous, Love,Good, Light etc..............
Why are Calvinists so mean ?
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How is it disengeious? Third time You have yet to explain. Questions are not explanations.
civic
Well-known member
and he explained and debunked your accusation.
civic
Well-known member
No it's not. God is the ultimate cause of all that exists or happens. He upholds and sustains all things. If you choose to Rob a bank must He allow you to carry out that choice?
Except it was never argued word order establishes temporal sequence
You continue with deception
I gave you three cause and effect statements which you desparately try to change into a dependence on word order
civic
Well-known member
No he didn't. He likes to selectively apply his own rule. So when he post a verse where it says believe so you may have life I will simply say, "word order does not establish temporal sequence". End of debate
How is it you cannot see that determining someone to an act is contrary to it not having entered your mind they should do it
civic
Well-known member
For the readers to see what the all things are and that they relate to the creation account in Genesis 1. Because Christ is preeminent, our Creator and nothing came before Him and all things came by Him and through Him the Apostles are testifying He is God our Creator in these passages. He existed before the beginning ( creation of all things) and only God existed before all things and is the Eternal Being who made all things in Genesis 1 which is confirmed below.
Now its like I'm debating a unitarian. yikes.
Its about the creation of our universe with the meaning of all things and not your presuppositions. The context makes that abundantly clear.
Now read about the Superiority of Christ over all below.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
cf- Heb 11:3- By faith we understand that the world has been created by the word of God so that what is seen has not been made out of things that are visible.
Colossians 1- The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
John 1- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made
1 Cor 8:6- yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.
I knew what you were going to quote and knew you had no leg to stand on. Its about the creation of our universe/world to which all things pertain. Not your calvinist assumptions you have read into the text.@presby02
now run away from the text again since you avoided it last time and deflected with your question game.
lets see some exegesis of these texts from you and prove me wrong. it will never happen by you or anyone else with these passages.
hope this helps !
Yes, actually you are. Trying to prove regeneration precedes faith with your proof text. Your suggesting a order to which I say, " word order does not establish temporal sequence" .
Read the whole verse again. You answered your own objection earlier. Are you a double agent? LOL
civic
Well-known member
I have quoted calvin well 100's of times on our forum affirming the predestination of the wicked for destruction from all eternity. Its inescapable that he affirmed it and then also denied it. That is what calvin did and his present day followers do as well, they affirm a doctrine then when challenged will deny it which is why its called the inconsistent calvinist.
Calvin below:
“We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.” Acts: Calvin, The Crossway Classic Commentaries, p.66
“First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121
“When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8
“For myself, I take another principle: Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God. This may seem paradoxical at first sight to some....” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169
“Indeed, the ungodly pride themselves on being competent to effect their wishes. But the facts show in the end that by them, unconsciously and unwillingly, what was divinely ordained is implemented.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.173,
“Does God work in the hearts of men, directing their plans and moving their wills this way and that, so that they do nothing but what He has ordained?” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.174
Read calvin below:
“But it is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God page 176
“But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179
God is the AUTHOR !
Did you read that ?
The Famous Calvinist John Piper who gets it from the WCF says the following about evil taken from desiring god website :
"Ephesians 1:11 goes even further by declaring that God in Christ “works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Here the Greek word for “works” is energeø, which indicates that God not merely carries all of the universe’s objects and events to their appointed ends but that he actually brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).
This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4, NASB). “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14, NIV)." www.desiringgod.org/message...ds-gracious-hand-in-the-hurts-others-do-to-us
ohn Calvin confessed that the doctrine of Double Predestination was a horrible and dreadful decree in his Institutes of the Christian Religion. John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Why would anyone believe such a horrific and dreadful doctrine ?
Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? Here their tongues, otherwise so loquacious, must become mute. The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. (latin. "Decretum quidem horribile, fateor."; french. "Je confesse que ce decret nous doit epouvanter.") Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. If anyone inveighs against God's foreknowledge at this point, he stumbles rashly and heedlessly. What reason is there to accuse the Heavenly Judge because he was not ignorant of what was to happen? If there is any just or manifest complaint, it applies to predestination. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision. For as it pertains to his wisdom to foreknow everything that is to happen, so it pertains to his might to rule and control everything by his hand. And Augustine also skillfully disposes of this question, as of others: "We most wholesomely confess what we most correctly believe, that the God and Lord of all things, who created all things exceedingly good [cf. Gen 1:31], and foreknew that evil things would rise out of good, and also knew that it pertained to his most omnipotent goodness to bring good out of evil things to be . . . , so ordained the life of angels and men that in it he might first of all show what free will could do, and then what the blessing of his grace and the verdict of his justice could do. (Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace X. 27)"
Calvin regarded soteriological predestination as God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition: rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or to death. gospelcoilition
" God is said to set apart those whom he adopts into salvation; it will be highly absurd to say that others acquire by chance or by their own effort what election alone confers on a few. Therefore, whom God passes over, he condemns: and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children. " Institutes, III, 23, 1.
hope this helps !!!
Calvin below:
“We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.” Acts: Calvin, The Crossway Classic Commentaries, p.66
“First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121
“When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8
“For myself, I take another principle: Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God. This may seem paradoxical at first sight to some....” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169
“Indeed, the ungodly pride themselves on being competent to effect their wishes. But the facts show in the end that by them, unconsciously and unwillingly, what was divinely ordained is implemented.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.173,
“Does God work in the hearts of men, directing their plans and moving their wills this way and that, so that they do nothing but what He has ordained?” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.174
Read calvin below:
“But it is quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God page 176
“But the objection is not yet resolved, that if all things are done by the will of God, and men contrive nothing except by His will and ordination, then God is the author of all evils.” Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.179
God is the AUTHOR !
Did you read that ?
The Famous Calvinist John Piper who gets it from the WCF says the following about evil taken from desiring god website :
"Ephesians 1:11 goes even further by declaring that God in Christ “works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Here the Greek word for “works” is energeø, which indicates that God not merely carries all of the universe’s objects and events to their appointed ends but that he actually brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).
This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4, NASB). “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14, NIV)." www.desiringgod.org/message...ds-gracious-hand-in-the-hurts-others-do-to-us
ohn Calvin confessed that the doctrine of Double Predestination was a horrible and dreadful decree in his Institutes of the Christian Religion. John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Why would anyone believe such a horrific and dreadful doctrine ?
Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? Here their tongues, otherwise so loquacious, must become mute. The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. (latin. "Decretum quidem horribile, fateor."; french. "Je confesse que ce decret nous doit epouvanter.") Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree. If anyone inveighs against God's foreknowledge at this point, he stumbles rashly and heedlessly. What reason is there to accuse the Heavenly Judge because he was not ignorant of what was to happen? If there is any just or manifest complaint, it applies to predestination. And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision. For as it pertains to his wisdom to foreknow everything that is to happen, so it pertains to his might to rule and control everything by his hand. And Augustine also skillfully disposes of this question, as of others: "We most wholesomely confess what we most correctly believe, that the God and Lord of all things, who created all things exceedingly good [cf. Gen 1:31], and foreknew that evil things would rise out of good, and also knew that it pertained to his most omnipotent goodness to bring good out of evil things to be . . . , so ordained the life of angels and men that in it he might first of all show what free will could do, and then what the blessing of his grace and the verdict of his justice could do. (Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace X. 27)"
Calvin regarded soteriological predestination as God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition: rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or to death. gospelcoilition
" God is said to set apart those whom he adopts into salvation; it will be highly absurd to say that others acquire by chance or by their own effort what election alone confers on a few. Therefore, whom God passes over, he condemns: and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children. " Institutes, III, 23, 1.
hope this helps !!!
More false witness
I never argued word order establishes temporal sequence
I did argue for context and the fact of all the verses present a cause and effect
You must do something to obtain the result
Readers note the obvious attempt to distort he employs
Great. You can cut and paste.
You don't have to. That is certainly what your suggesting. Belief them life right?
General Tom the Provisionist:
"word order does not establish temporal sequence"
No, you did, thanks. Observe: what does it mean, "it did not enter His mind" Tom? Are you denying God's omniscience?
civic
Well-known member
great you have no answer as expected you are incapable of refuting the post. you did it the last time you read it.
Stuck on repeat.
next
LOL, refuting cut and pastes of work that's not your own? Am I talking to Calvin or you?
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