Why All Is Not Ordained

[Rockson]

Psalm 95:7-11

For He is our God, and we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand. Today, if you would hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah, as in the day of Massah in the wilderness, “When your fathers tested Me, They tried Me, though they had seen My work. For forty years I loathed that generation, and said they are a people who err in their heart, and they do not know My ways. Therefore I swore in My anger, Truly they shall not enter into My rest.”​

Let's unpack what we see here. If everything is ordained as Calvinists say why would they be told not to harden their hearts? If all is ordained then they're going to harden their hearts regardless of the exhortation not too. So why then give the exhortation? Seems for only one reason. They could choose things outside of what God willed or wanted them to do. So goes down the tube that everything is ORDAINED.

The verse above also states the people err in their heart and they don't know God's ways. If all was ordained what could that mean they don't know God's way. God's way would be whatever they do. That is not however what God said. All things are not ordained. So God swore in his anger? Why anger if all things are ordained? If everything is and was ordained the anger would have to be a put on thing.....not based on any real sense of being grieved. All being ordained would have all things going according to plan.

 

[Rockson]

..

 

[civic]

Popcorn is ready with salt and butter

 

[TomL]

Psalm 95:7-11

For He is our God, and we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand. Today, if you would hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah, as in the day of Massah in the wilderness, “When your fathers tested Me, They tried Me, though they had seen My work. For forty years I loathed that generation, and said they are a people who err in their heart, and they do not know My ways. Therefore I swore in My anger, Truly they shall not enter into My rest.”​

Let's unpack what we see here. If everything is ordained as Calvinists say why would they be told not to harden their hearts? If all is ordained then they're going to harden their hearts regardless of the exhortation not too. So why then give the exhortation? Seems for only one reason. They could choose things outside of what God willed or wanted them to do. So goes down the tube that everything is ORDAINED.

The verse above also states the people err in their heart and they don't know God's ways. If all was ordained what could that mean they don't know God's way. God's way would be whatever they do. That is not however what God said. All things are not ordained. So God swore in his anger? Why anger if all things are ordained? If everything is and was ordained the anger would have to be a put on thing.....not based on any real sense of being grieved. All being ordained would have all things going according to plan.

You have to put on the Calvinist lens

Do not harden your heart is the revealed will

The secret will is God will harden it for you

 

[civic]

You have to put on the Calvinist lens

Do not harden your heart is the revealed will

The secret will is God will harden it for you

lol talk about double talk

 

[Rockson]

You have to put on the Calvinist lens

Do not harden your heart is the revealed will

The secret will is God will harden it for you

Yea I think that would come down to I don't want to see you with a hardened heart but I do want to see you with a hardened heart and there's no excuse for you not understanding this way.

So would Calvinists have a prayer meeting saying to God,

"Now we know what your Prophet has said but should we take your them seriously? Are you just kidding with us, joshing and pretending? Maybe the best thing for you to do is not tell us to do anything? You through your ordaining are going to work the true thing in us anyway and we wouldn't want to make a mistake by taking your words seriously."

One can almost image them taking up a petition asking God not to give them any instructions. Their logic would be whatever plays out will play out.

So no offence to Calvinists here.....but truly and sincerely I ask how do you know God is serious about anything? How would you truly know that you're serving him or not in what you do if the Bible instructions don't tell us?

 

[TomL]

Yea I think that would come down to I don't want to see you with a hardened heart but I do want to see you with a hardened heart and there's no excuse for you not understanding this way.

So would Calvinists have a prayer meeting saying to God,

"Now we know what your Prophet has said but should we take your them seriously? Are you just kidding with us, joshing and pretending? Maybe the best thing for you to do is not tell us to do anything? You through your ordaining are going to work the true thing in us anyway and we wouldn't want to make a mistake by taking your words seriously."

One can almost image them taking up a petition asking God not to give them any instructions. Their logic would be whatever plays out will play out.

So no offence to Calvinists here.....but truly and sincerely I ask how do you know God is serious about anything? How would you truly know that you're serving him or not in what you do if the Bible instructions don't tell us?

Truly if God has a secret will which is contrary to his revealed will how is it possible to trust his revealed will

 

[Rockson]

Truly if God has a secret will which is contrary to his revealed will how is it possible to trust his revealed will

You couldn't. Calvinistic thought creates a void and vacuum. It's guts everything out from truly being able to think of God's word like an anchor to one's soul or a compass to define one's position for the reason the reading of the revealed will could be all wrong.

 

[TomL]

You couldn't. Calvinistic thought creates a void and vacuum. It's guts everything out from truly being able to think of God's word like an anchor to one's soul or a compass to define one's position for the reason the reading of the revealed will could be all wrong.

And this would not be true

2 Timothy 3:16–17 (ESV) — 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

 

[Presby02]

Psalm 95:7-11

For He is our God, and we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand. Today, if you would hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah, as in the day of Massah in the wilderness, “When your fathers tested Me, They tried Me, though they had seen My work. For forty years I loathed that generation, and said they are a people who err in their heart, and they do not know My ways. Therefore I swore in My anger, Truly they shall not enter into My rest.”​

Let's unpack what we see here. If everything is ordained as Calvinists say why would they be told not to harden their hearts? If all is ordained then they're going to harden their hearts regardless of the exhortation not too. So why then give the exhortation? Seems for only one reason. They could choose things outside of what God willed or wanted them to do. So goes down the tube that everything is ORDAINED.

The verse above also states the people err in their heart and they don't know God's ways. If all was ordained what could that mean they don't know God's way. God's way would be whatever they do. That is not however what God said. All things are not ordained. So God swore in his anger? Why anger if all things are ordained? If everything is and was ordained the anger would have to be a put on thing.....not based on any real sense of being grieved. All being ordained would have all things going according to plan.

Exactly the opposite of what Job 42:2 says. "and no purpose of yours can be thwarted"

 

[Rockson]

Exactly the opposite of what Job 42:2 says. "and no purpose of yours can be thwarted"

Context, context, context. Basically means when God makes up his mind something is going to happen it will happen.

True many times when it comes to judgement issues as in he's going to judge nations. Didn't mean they didn't have time where they couldn't have walked in obedience choosing to do so by their free will. And didn't mean they had to harden themselves when God told them NOT TO!

 

[Presby02]

Context, context, context. Basically means when God makes up his mind something is going to happen it will happen.

True many times when it comes to judgement issues as in he's going to judge nations. Didn't mean they didn't have time where they couldn't have walked in obedience choosing to do so by their free will. And didn't mean they had to harden themselves when God told them NOT TO!

Makes up His mind? Why would a omniscient God be making up His mind? Where do you find this in the text?

I'm smelling yet another Provisionist presupposition

So explain the context.

 

[Rockson]

Makes up His mind? Why would a omniscient God be making up His mind? Where do you find this in the text?

No I'm not going to allow you to marginalize my point on this. Calvinists and Nn Calvinists alike have used rhetoric that God decided this or that. God decides or determines things based on the actions of others.....it's found all throughout the scriptures.

I'm smelling yet another Provisionist presupposition

I sense someone is being silly.

 

[Presby02]

No I'm not going to allow you to marginalize my point on this. Calvinists and Nn Calvinists alike have used rhetoric that God decided this or that. God decides or determines things based on the actions of others.....it's found all throughout the scriptures.

I sense someone is being silly.

Which is functionally denying His omniscience. Which is not silly.

 

[TomL]

Exactly the opposite of what Job 42:2 says. "and no purpose of yours can be thwarted"

Which says nothing about God determining all things.

 

[Presby02]

Which says nothing about God determining all things.

Nobody said it did. LOL

 

[Rockson]

Exactly the opposite of what Job 42:2 says. "and no purpose of yours can be thwarted"

Just another nugget to show that when Job 42:2 states no purpose of yours can be thwarted the Luke 7:30 verse states it can be.

But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John. Lk 7:30

So how do we get out of the problem of that which seems to contradict itself? Fact is it doesn't. Context, context, context is the KEY. Job 42:2 as I've said was meant to be understood in the following way,

Basically means when God makes up his mind something is going to happen it will happen. True many times when it comes to judgement issues as in he's going to judge nations. Didn't mean they didn't have time where they couldn't have walked in obedience choosing to do so by their free will. And didn't mean they had to harden themselves when God told them NOT TO!

 

[Presby02]

Just another nugget to show that when Job 42:2 states no purpose of yours can be thwarted the Luke 7:30 verse states it can be.

But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John. Lk 7:30

So how do we get out of the problem of that which seems to contradict itself? Fact is it doesn't. Context, context, context is the KEY. Job 42:2 as I've said was meant to be understood in the following way,

Basically means when God makes up his mind something is going to happen it will happen. True many times when it comes to judgement issues as in he's going to judge nations. Didn't mean they didn't have time where they couldn't have walked in obedience choosing to do so by their free will. And didn't mean they had to harden themselves when God told them NOT TO!

So no purpose of God can be thwarted but some can?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Just another nugget to show that when Job 42:2 states no purpose of yours can be thwarted the Luke 7:30 verse states it can be.

But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John. Lk 7:30

So how do we get out of the problem of that which seems to contradict itself? Fact is it doesn't. Context, context, context is the KEY. Job 42:2 as I've said was meant to be understood in the following way,

Basically means when God makes up his mind something is going to happen it will happen. True many times when it comes to judgement issues as in he's going to judge nations. Didn't mean they didn't have time where they couldn't have walked in obedience choosing to do so by their free will. And didn't mean they had to harden themselves when God told them NOT TO!

Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

There are significant difference in the extant witnesses of the book of Job. There is no evidence that Job was originally written in Hebrew. It was written before Abraham and there are many reasons why we can determine this.

 

[Presby02]

Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

There are significant difference in the extant witnesses of the book of Job. There is no evidence that Job was originally written in Hebrew. It was written before Abraham and there are many reasons why we can determine this.

Psalms 33:10,11 work for you or should that been written in German?

How about Proverbs 19:21?