Ezra
Well-known member
honestly tour taking scripture out of context
When Is A Jew Not A Jew?
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
- Start date
GeneZ
Well-known member
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
It's still a Hebrew/Jewish Covenant with a Jewish Messiah. And when the Times of the Gentiles is ended very soon God turns His full attention back to Israel (the Jew) and fulfills all the left-standing promises He's made to them. The two Jewish witnesses in Revelation 11 will prophesy to Israel from their Law, Psalms, and their Prophets and show through their Scriptures that this Jesus was/is their long-awaited Messiah, and you will see the distinction between covenant Jew and non-covenant Gentile when God brings all those NOT in Covenant with Him against Israel and destroys them all. There's a reason why in Revelation 19 when Jesus returns in glory His vesture is stained in blood. That's the blood of those He hates and whom He destroys with the sword from His mouth. It will be a bloodbath. But for all intents and purposes there is every spiritual value in being Jewish because the Spirit is He whom God puts in their inward parts. And if you take a closer read of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 you'll see that this covenant is not with Gentiles, but with the House of Israel.
Saul is writing to Jewish Christians in the region around Galatia where Jewish churches were established by Jewish Christians and Saul is establishing to the Jewish Christians that by being in Christ is also the same as being a son of Abraham and in covenant with God. Read it in this context in which it was written and come to the knowledge of the truth.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
I don't have an answer for you.
Lately, the Lord has brought something to my mind on this subject specifically, and with regard to covenant in general, but not having anyone to pick their brains about it and get feedback to test what I believe the Lord brought to mind I wouldn't post it unless I can defend it through Scripture and reason.
So, I keep it in the backburner of my mind to hopefully see it edified (built) and then maybe I would post it here and answer two questions specifically and generally at the same time.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Show me.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
That's the way I understand it.
Ezra
Well-known member
it applies to anyone who get born again... paul said 7But whatever was gain to me I count as loss for the sake of Christ. 8More than that, I count all things as loss compared to the surpassing excellence of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God on the basis of faith.…
Ezra
Well-known member
done did
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
What applies to everyone?
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
By God saying to Abraham "[be] blameless" to you that means having faith?
No, that doesn't mean that.
Show me in the Abrahamic Covenant in Genesis 17 God commanding or instructing Abraham to have/exercise/exhibit faith as his part of the covenant.
Psst...there is none.
The Abrahamic Covenant is a Covenant GOD is going to fulfill without any requirement from Abraham. It was God who in Covenant with Himself who walked between the sacrificed animal halves while Abraham was anesthetized/asleep.
The Mosaic Covenant is different in this respect, that God makes command to the children of Israel and instructs their obedience and faith (trust) in Him to do what He says He promised to do and what He expects the children of Israel to do, and that is, keep His Laws. But there is no faith-requirement in the Abrahamic Covenant. None.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Paul was writing to Galatia.... Not, Saul.
All his epistles he addresses himself as 'Paul.'
Why you keep insisting on calling Paul, "Saul?"
It is an oddity I have never seen before.
But, I see online that its now becoming trendy to call him Saul.
Saul was the name of a loser in the Bible. One who committed suicide in battle after contacting the witch of Endor.
Calling Paul, "Saul?" -
Might be a sideways attack on who and what Paul really was.
Paul was the greatest Christian in the Bible.
In contrast? Saul in the OT was a jealous and violent loser.
This is evident...
Satan hates Paul.
It is Satan who would want to mock Paul by calling him "Saul" in reference to the loser King Saul.
There is no reason to call him Saul.... No good reason.
Paul never referred to himself as "Saul" beyond the book of Acts. When he was speaking in reference to his past.
How many times is Paul referred to as "Saul" in the NT?
Only 29 times. None after the book of Acts.
Paul never refers to himself as Saul after the book of Acts.
How many times is the name Paul used in the NT?
239 times! With Paul referring to himself as Paul consistently.
Paul when addressing himself to others in his epistles did not use the name Saul.
Saul was only used in Acts as a reference to the background of his very early days as a believer.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Its sound doctrine.
GeneZ
Well-known member
I had a thought for you to consider.
It probably needs some work, but I believe it may shed light on why we are walking in a dogmatic vagueness at present.
Its because many do not understand the ancient Jewish custom for marriage.
When a Jewish man was espoused to be married to a woman? He first signed a "contract" with the woman's father.
The man and woman were considered married, but not yet married. That contract which had benefits can be called a covenant..
The covenant was in effect for the time the man and woman are espoused until the actual wedding night.
In such a manner, God created a new covenant for the Church. This covenant/contract is in effect until we are resurrected and become one flesh with the Lord!
Ephesians 5:25-27
New International Version
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
So? Presently the Gentiles who believe have now been grafted into the marriage contract/covenant.
They now receive the same benefits as Jews, who are also waiting for their resurrection (the wedding night).
Ezra
Well-known member
there is faith in everything in the bible
Joh_8:56 "Your father Abraham leaped for joy in order that he might see the day, Mine: and he saw it [by faith], and rejoiced ."
Rom_4:16 On account of this it is of faith, in order that it might be by grace; to the end the promise may be sure to every child of faithful Abraham, Jew and Gentile alike; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Heb_11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he was about to receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, hath offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son,--
Peter Preaches to the Gentiles – Acts 10:1-11:30
Cornelius
1Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. 3About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, "Cornelius!" 4And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, "What is it, Lord?" And he said to him, "Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5Now dispatch some men to Joppa and send for a man named Simon, who is also called Peter; 6he is staying with a tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea." 7When the angel who was speaking to him had left, he summoned two of his servants and a devout soldier of those who were his personal attendants, 8and after he had explained everything to them, he sent them to Joppa.
- Acts 10:1-8
The Jews had two classes of converts (Lenski, p.67):
Proselytes of the Gate: These converts were not subject to circumcision and observed only a limited portion of the Law forbidding idolatry, blasphemy, disobedience to judges, murder, fornication/incest, theft and eating of blood. The eunuch that Philip baptized was one of these as was Cornelius, probably because he was a Roman soldier and a foreigner.
Proselyte of Righteousness: These were Gentiles that became complete Jews, accepting circumcision, and were subject to all of the Law. They were permitted to enter and worship at the Temple (in the Court of the Gentiles).
Although he was a Proselyte of the Gate, Luke describes Cornelius (centurion is a Roman officer over 100 soldiers) as being:
Devout/pious: A proselyte who worshiped the God of the Jews and led his household in that direction.
Benevolent: He used his position and wealth to benefit the poor thus confirming that his faith was sincere.
Spiritually minded: He wanted a spiritual relationship with God and pursued it through prayer.
His prayers are answered as God gives him instructions to bring Peter to his home. Note that the angel could have preached the gospel to him then and there, but that task was given by God to men not angels, so that even if it was more complicated to arrange, Cornelius sends for Peter.
Peter
9On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, kill and eat!" 14But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean." 15Again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." 16This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.
- Acts 10:9-16
God provides a vision where Peter is commanded to eat food that Jews were not permitted to eat according to Jewish food laws. The Lord had prepared Cornelius for Peter's visit with the appearance of an angel who gave him specific instructions. God also prepares Peter so that he will be able to carry out God's mission despite the challenges it will present him as a faithful Jew.
Jewish ceremonial and food laws were given to the Jews by God in order to make a distinction between themselves as God's people and other nations (Gentiles) who were not. For example, the whole world labored seven days per week, but the Jews were different in that they devoted one day (Sabbath) to the Lord and rested. The other nations ate every kind of food. Jews were different because what they did or did not eat was guided by their law given to them by God. Once Christ came, the way to be separated from the world was to follow Him and submit to the direction of the Holy Spirit who leads Christians through His Word (New Testament) spoken by Christ and taught by His Apostles (Acts 2:42).
The problem for Peter as well as the other Apostles was that the practices that they had followed as Jews (food laws, Sabbath day observations, etc.) were now taken away or fulfilled by Jesus, but they were slow to understand. This included the rules concerning their association with Gentiles. For example, they could not enter a Gentile's home or share a meal with them, nor could the Gentiles enter a Jew's home or the Temple.
In the vision of the clean and unclean food and the command to eat, God was teaching Peter two things:
God had the authority to establish laws, change laws, or suspend laws because He was God, the giver of laws.
He was now amending the law concerning food, declaring that all food was to be considered "clean" and thus could be eaten freely by Jewish Christians (something Jesus had already declared in Mark 7:19).
17Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon's house, appeared at the gate; 18and calling out, they were asking whether Simon, who was also called Peter, was staying there. 19While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are looking for you. 20But get up, go downstairs and accompany them without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself." 21Peter went down to the men and said, "Behold, I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for which you have come?" 22They said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you." 23So he invited them in and gave them lodging.
- Acts 10:17-23a
Peter, still trying to absorb the meaning of the vision, is told that the men sent by Cornelius are at the gate and he should welcome them. Peter greets them and after hearing the reason for their journey invites them to spend the night with him and Simon's family. Peter may not have understood the full impact of the vision but nevertheless obeyed God's instructions to invite the Gentiles in, despite his discomfort.
Peter Meets Cornelius
23bAnd on the next day he got up and went away with them, and some of the brethren from Joppa accompanied him. 24On the following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter raised him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am just a man." 27As he talked with him, he entered and found many people assembled. 28And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean. 29That is why I came without even raising any objection when I was sent for. So I ask for what reason you have sent for me."
30Cornelius said, "Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour; and behold, a man stood before me in shining garments, 31and he said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32Therefore send to Joppa and invite Simon, who is also called Peter, to come to you; he is staying at the house of Simon the tanner by the sea.' 33So I sent for you immediately, and you have been kind enough to come. Now then, we are all here present before God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord."
- Acts 10:23b-33
Luke describes both Cornelius' preparations for Peter's visit (he had no doubt that the Apostle would come). There is also a marvelous image of these two pious and humble men deferring to one another. Cornelius, a Roman Centurion, kneeling in front of this Galilean fisherman in front of his family and friends. And the servant of the Lord refusing this type of homage declaring the truth that before God both of them were only men (sinful men).
Peter begins by speaking to the obvious issue, "What are a group of Jewish men doing visiting/entering the house of a Gentile?," something that everyone knew was not permitted for a Jew. He does not describe his vision, as Cornelius will do in a moment, but demonstrates that he has understood the meaning of the vision God gave him and that he has obeyed it. Cornelius explains his own vision and how this has led to Peter's arrival in his home. The stage has now been set for the first instance where the gospel will be proclaimed to the Gentiles.
Peter Preaches to the Gentiles (10:34-43)
Peter's lesson assumes that his hearers are all familiar with the facts of the gospel as were most of the people who lived in that area and knew of Jesus, His ministry, as well as His death and reports of His resurrection. He also includes the new information given him by God in the vision that the gospel is for all, not only the Jews to whom he had been preaching since Pentecost. His main point is that he and the Apostles are actual witnesses of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.
39We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. 40God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, 41not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
- Acts 10:39-43
Response to Peter's Preaching (10:44-48)
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
- Acts 10:44-46
Before Peter can finish by encouraging his audience to repent and be baptized as he did with the crowd on Pentecost Sunday, Cornelius and the other hearers begin speaking in tongues and praising God. Luke describes this phenomenon as, "the gift of the Holy Spirit poured out on the Gentiles."
Think back to other times in the book of Acts when the Holy Spirit was mentioned and answer this question, "What has just happened here: empowerment by the Holy Spirit or indwelling of the Holy Spirit?" The answer is: empowerment. The Holy Spirit empowered these people to speak in tongues. I believe this happened in order to convince those that did not have a vision (like Peter's companions) that God was extending the gospel to the Gentiles, not only to the Jews. There were many prophets who said that this would be so (Micah 4:2; Zechariah 8:22; Amos 9:12) including Jesus Himself in Mark 13:10.
47"Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
- Acts 10:47-48
Peter now finishes his lesson by directing these new believers to be baptized because if there were any who doubted that the gospel was also for the Gentiles, their questions had been answered by the Holy Spirit Himself when He empowered these people to speak in tongues. Peter mentions that they had received the empowerment by the Holy Spirit just like the Apostles did, without human intervention (no laying on of hands). He also insists that they be baptized in order to obey the gospel and receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).
And so God uses the appearance of an angel, a special vision and the empowering of Gentiles to direct Peter to open the gospel to non-Jews. We find out that all of this and more would be necessary to convince the early church, made up exclusively of Jewish Christians, to accept this directive from God.
Last edited:
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Acts 9:4.
I prefer to say the same thing as God.
In Genesis records God changing Abram's name to Abraham. In the gospels it records Jesus changing Simeon's name to Peter. Nowhere in Scripture does it record Jesus changing Saul's name to Paul. That was an evangelistic gimmick to make him more acceptable to Gentiles. We do the same thing here. We change our names and make up monikers when we join a Forum. A majority of Christians don't even know their spiritual name when they become saved or any time during their life in Christ on earth. And there are many reasons why this is. But still, I prefer to say the same thing as God. To do otherwise is to oppose Him.
There's nothing wrong in addressing him by his birth name. I'm sure Peter addressed him by his Hebrew name as well.
Well, when you see king Saul in glory maybe he's already forgiven you for calling him a "loser."
No, Saul will always be Saul. Jesus will continue to address him by his Hebrew name as well.
I humbly disagree.
Another lost sheep from the House of Israel. Jesus came for those.
Yeah, but "Satan" can't do anything to him because all the angels that sinned are locked up awaiting judgment.
I'm sure Saul would return with "Sticks and stones" if he were to hear or know of such language.
Yes, I said I call him "Saul" because that's his name and because Jesus called him "Saul." And that being who I am I prefer to say the same thing as God.
I don't think he's ever referred to himself as "Saul" in all of New Covenant Scripture.
Maybe so, but the only one that really counts is when Jesus called him "Saul."
I don't think Jesus refers to you as "GeneZ" when He and the Father are discussing you. That's a name you gave yourself, and such authority usually rests on God and your parents. But that's another post.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
But until the woman took the husbands name there was no real marriage, only a promise to marry.
This kinda ties in with "Saul, Saul" as opposed to "Paul, Paul" doesn't it?
God instituted a New Covenant with the House of Israel who is His Bride and Church ("called out [ones]".) I'd be interested to find out what you may know because I've never considered it and yet I may look at the question later, but do you know if in the New Covenant Scriptures Jesus or God calling hard-core, uncircumcised Gentile Christians His Church (not counting Gentile proselytes.) ?
Now you're making things up. Hard-core, uncircumcised Gentile Christians are not "grafted" into anything anywhere in the Law, Psalms, or Prophets. Zero, zip, nada. God made no covenant with Gentiles or the seed of Gentiles anywhere in the Law, Psalms, and the Prophets. There were no Gentiles mentioned when God said He was betrothed to Israel. The true Bride is Israel and being in covenant with Israel His Bride God is not unfaithful to make covenant with anyone else - not even hard-core, uncircumcised Gentiles or Gentile Christians. This same reasoning applies to the error that says, "God loves everyone," or "Christ died for everyone."
19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever;
Yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment,
And in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness:
And thou shalt know the LORD.
Hosea 2:19–20.
No, not the same. God made no covenant with Gentiles or the seed of Gentiles. There is no such thing in the Law, the Psalms, or the Prophets. All of that "Gentile is the Church" or "The Gentile Church is the Bride of Christ" is only error. The true Bride, the Bride God has covenant with to marry is Israel. Neither God nor Christ is an adulterer.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
So, you cannot find "Faith" as a requirement from Abraham in the Covenant described in Genesis 17, either. It would just be easier to be honest with yourself, for if you could do this then you can be honest with others. Such an attitude is dangerous in Christianity.
But if God at present can't make you honest with yourself, I can't do it from my chair.
Jesus said, "What you do to these, the least of my brethren you have done it unto me.
Now you know.
Similar threads
