When Grace is not Grace

[Don Miller]

Faith is, the personal attitude of the individual, reflecting that person’s mind and will. Faith means that the person is believing, not that God (or Christ) is believing for him. Any number of New Testament references to faith will confirm this:

Galatians 2:16
We believed in Jesus Christ in order to be justified.

Romans 4:3
Abraham believed in God and was reckoned righteous.

Romans 4:5
To the one believing, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:24
is imputed … to us who are believing.

John 3:16
Everyone who is believing in Him has eternal life.

Luke 7:50
Your faith has saved you.

Romans 10:10
With the heart one believes unto righteousness.

 

[MTMattie]

Faith is given by the Saviour as a Gift Acts 5:31


31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

He is the author of it, the causer/source of it Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel​

You DO realize that Israel was/is a nation... NOT AN INDIVIDUAL

​

​

What does Acts 5:31 mean?​

During Jesus' ministry, He specifically told the Twelve that men would drag them before courts and flog them, but they were to teach their oppressors about Him anyway. This is exactly what is happening here. Jesus also told them to not worry what they will say; the Holy Spirit will give them the right words (Matthew 10:16–20).

The words Peter is using go far beyond the Sanhedrin's initial concern about resurrection and popularity. "Leader" is from the Greek root word archēgos and can be translated as "prince," or "captain," or even "pioneer" or "founder." Some translations use "author" to translate this word in Hebrews 12:2. Peter is directly accusing the Sanhedrin of executing the One who originated the Jewish people and promised to save them—not only killing Him but defiling Him by hanging Him from a tree (Acts 5:30; Deuteronomy 21:22–23; Galatians 3:13–14).


Context Summary
Acts 5:27–42 occurs in the aftermath of a miraculous jailbreak. The chief priests arrested the apostles for teaching and healing in Jesus' name (Acts 5:17–18). On the morning of the inquiry, the guards find the prison cells empty and the apostles, again, preaching in the temple courtyard (Acts 5:22, 25). The guards bring the apostles back, and the Sanhedrin questions them. When the apostles insist Jesus is alive, the priests want them killed. But a Pharisee, Gamaliel, calms the situation. The Sanhedrin do flog the apostles before releasing them, starting the long history of physical persecution against Christ-followers. Verse 29 is a cornerstone of Christian ethics: that God's will is worth suffering for.

 

[brightfame52]

So only the people Jesus wants to save get faith given to them.

Yes, those He does save will be given Faith

 

[brightfame52]

a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel​

You DO realize that Israel was/is a nation... NOT AN INDIVIDUAL

​

​

What does Acts 5:31 mean?​

During Jesus' ministry, He specifically told the Twelve that men would drag them before courts and flog them, but they were to teach their oppressors about Him anyway. This is exactly what is happening here. Jesus also told them to not worry what they will say; the Holy Spirit will give them the right words (Matthew 10:16–20).

The words Peter is using go far beyond the Sanhedrin's initial concern about resurrection and popularity. "Leader" is from the Greek root word archēgos and can be translated as "prince," or "captain," or even "pioneer" or "founder." Some translations use "author" to translate this word in Hebrews 12:2. Peter is directly accusing the Sanhedrin of executing the One who originated the Jewish people and promised to save them—not only killing Him but defiling Him by hanging Him from a tree (Acts 5:30; Deuteronomy 21:22–23; Galatians 3:13–14).


Context Summary
Acts 5:27–42 occurs in the aftermath of a miraculous jailbreak. The chief priests arrested the apostles for teaching and healing in Jesus' name (Acts 5:17–18). On the morning of the inquiry, the guards find the prison cells empty and the apostles, again, preaching in the temple courtyard (Acts 5:22, 25). The guards bring the apostles back, and the Sanhedrin questions them. When the apostles insist Jesus is alive, the priests want them killed. But a Pharisee, Gamaliel, calms the situation. The Sanhedrin do flog the apostles before releasing them, starting the long history of physical persecution against Christ-followers. Verse 29 is a cornerstone of Christian ethics: that God's will is worth suffering for.

Israel there Acts 5:31 is Gods Elect, the Church, the Body of Christ comprised of jews and gentiles.

 

[Don Miller]

Yes, those He does save will be given Faith

That's cart before the horse. That's doing things in the wrong order.

When we place our faith in Jesus, we believe in Him, and God grants His righteousness to us. The key is belief, in response to God’s love. Anyone who places his or her faith in Jesus has the promise of eternal life.

 

[MTMattie]

So only the people Jesus wants to save get faith given to them.

Actually that is a Calvin viewpoint, and it is who God the Father wants to save.

John Calvin taught...

Calvin: Predestination

Calvin on predestination: To his glory, God determined before all creation those who would obtain eternal life, and those who would receive eternal death.

www.theologian-theology.com

Predestination According to Calvin​

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals (187).
According to their belief... nothing anyone can do will save them IF they are not predestined by God.
But then I wonder, if you are predestined... (yes, you will find the suggestion in the bible) why was the need for Jesus.
If God had those he was going to select. That would be a done deal.... like they say in this article...

Our Predestination Is Not Based on Our Worth​

The conclusion I draw, then, is that there is a broad foundation in the New Testament for the truth of Romans 8:30, that the call of God is based on his prior predestination, and that this predestination is not based on anything in us: not on our worth as persons (since then everyone would qualify) nor on our faith (which is a gift of God). Our election is unconditional. Our predestination is unconditional. And our effectual calling is unconditional. Whom he foreknew he also predestined and whom he predestined he also called.

Why then the need for Jesus.? Why then the bneed for baptism? If you are predetermined you are not going to lose that according to Calvin.

I do not believe in Calvinism. I will say that I do see that God will predetermine certain people to salvation because they are doing his works here.
Same as I do not believe he formed us and knew us all before birth, but some like the prophets (Jeremiah) for they would be interacting with all.

If you chose to believe this. Fine. I happen to belong to a Protestant church that believes it. I am in disagreement.

 

[Aeliana]

Actually that is a Calvin viewpoint, and it is who God the Father wants to save.

John Calvin taught...

Calvin: Predestination

Calvin on predestination: To his glory, God determined before all creation those who would obtain eternal life, and those who would receive eternal death.

www.theologian-theology.com

Predestination According to Calvin​

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals (187).
According to their belief... nothing anyone can do will save them IF they are not predestined by God.
But then I wonder, if you are predestined... (yes, you will find the suggestion in the bible) why was the need for Jesus.
If God had those he was going to select. That would be a done deal.... like they say in this article...

Our Predestination Is Not Based on Our Worth​

Why then the need for Jesus.? Why then the bneed for baptism? If you are predetermined you are not going to lose that according to Calvin.

I do not believe in Calvinism. I will say that I do see that God will predetermine certain people to salvation because they are doing his works here.
Same as I do not believe he formed us and knew us all before birth, but some like the prophets (Jeremiah) for they would be interacting with all.

If you chose to believe this. Fine. I happen to belong to a Protestant church that believes it. I am in disagreement.

I was trying to show the absurdity of that point of view. I reject Calvinism. Gods love is not found in Calvinism.

 

[Parker]

I was trying to show the absurdity of that point of view. I reject Calvinism. Gods love is not found in Calvinism.

“When we say that God is sovereign in the exercise of His love, we mean that He loves whom he chooses. God does not love everybody.” A. W. Pink

If I heard a pastor preaching a sermon, and he forthrightly declared, “God does not love everybody” I would be heading for the door. The very heart of the gospel that God loves everyone. Is that not the good news that we joyfully share with all persons?

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life” (John 3:16).

Unfortunately, Calvinists sometimes seem to have a blind spot for the love of God.

 

[brightfame52]

That's cart before the horse. That's doing things in the wrong order.

When we place our faith in Jesus, we believe in Him, and God grants His righteousness to us. The key is belief, in response to God’s love. Anyone who places his or her faith in Jesus has the promise of eternal life.

Man before he is saved and given new birth, he is in the flesh and cant please God with faith Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[civic]

Faith is given by the Saviour as a Gift Acts 5:31


31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

He is the author of it, the causer/source of it Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

nope its mans responsibility to believe or reject the gospel. God does not believe for man or magically give a person belief/faith.

 

[brightfame52]

nope its mans responsibility to believe or reject the gospel. God does not believe for man or magically give a person belief/faith.

He is the author of it, the causer/source of it Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Christ gives His Spirit to them he redeems and Faith is the fruit of His Spirit Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

[civic]

He is the author of it, the causer/source of it Heb 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Christ gives His Spirit to them he redeems and Faith is the fruit of His Spirit Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

they were already believers in those passages. He never gives unbelievers faith.

you are making my case for me and you don't even realize it lol.

next fallacy

 

[brightfame52]

they were already believers in those passages. He never gives unbelievers faith.

you are making my case for me and you don't even realize it lol.

next fallacy

See giving you scripture doesnt help you , so quit asking me for scripture, you still wont receive it as truth because you cant my friend.

He never gives unbelievers faith.

Sure He does because before He gives them Faith by the Spirit they are dead in sin, in trespasses and sins and unbelief. So when He gives them eternal life, life by the quickening Spirit, faith being a fruit of that Spirit, they believe !

 

[civic]

See giving you scripture doesnt help you , so quit asking me for scripture, you still wont receive it as truth because you cant my friend.


Sure He does because before He gives them Faith by the Spirit they are dead in sin, in trespasses and sins and unbelief. So when He gives them eternal life, life by the quickening Spirit, faith being a fruit of that Spirit, they believe !

Nope the new birth , eternal life , salvation is given after the unbeliever comes to faith in the gospel message , not before.

Your man made theology has the cart before the horse

 

[brightfame52]

Nope the new birth , eternal life , salvation is given after the unbeliever comes to faith in the gospel message , not before.

Your man made theology has the cart before the horse

Faith and Repentance are Spiritual and comes with the Spirit in the New Birth, until then the elect sinner is dead in sin and unbelief, under the power of darkness.

 

[brightfame52]

Christs Salvation isnt an offer, God has determined that the non elect cannot believe, He purposely hides the Truth from them, whereas for the elect He desires them to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth,

The non elect Lk 10:21

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Matt 11:25

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Matt 13 11

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

The Elect 1 Tim 2:4

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Non elect 2 Thess 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[MTMattie]

Christs Salvation isnt an offer, God has determined that the non elect cannot believe, He purposely hides the Truth from them, whereas for the elect He desires them to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth,

The non elect Lk 10:21

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Matt 11:25

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Matt 13 11

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

The Elect 1 Tim 2:4

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Non elect 2 Thess 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

How is it that you are certain that you are included in the elect?

Look at the number of people participating in this subject.

Opposite sides of the fence and we could have a great tug of war game with a rope.

You believe one way as you see it in the bible.

I believe another way as I see it and understand.

Would you go so far as to say that as you believe I am wrong I am not among the elect? Or others that believe as I?

 

[TibiasDad]

I see nothing about faith being a requirement to get saved. Faith is given as a Gift with Salvations by Grace

The only difference between being condemned and being uncondemned is belief/faith.

Doug

 

[MTMattie]

The only difference between being condemned and being uncondemned is belief/faith.

Doug

True, however.... it is how that faith comes.

My faith came by hearing. God did not gift it to me.

brightfame52 said:

I see nothing about faith being a requirement to get saved. Faith is given as a Gift with Salvations by Grace

I simply do not know how @brightfame52 explains these verses.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Romans 11:20
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

ESPECIALLY
Romans 11:23
And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. ( DEFINITELY NO GIFTING HERE!)
John 3:15
so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. (OR HERE)
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (HEARS MY WORD NOT RECEIVED THE GIFT OF FAITH)
John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,( NOT HERE EITHER)

John 20:31
but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Acts 10:43
Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:39
and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Luke 8:12
Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. (I ASK YOU. COULD THE DEVIL REALLY TAKE AWAY WHAT GOD HAS GIVEN?)

Romans 9:32
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Romans 4:14
For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;

 

[brightfame52]

The only difference between being condemned and being uncondemned is belief/faith.

Doug

Again,

I see nothing about faith being a requirement to get saved. Faith is given as a Gift with Salvations by Grace