When Grace is not Grace

[TibiasDad]

True, however.... it is how that faith comes.

My faith came by hearing. God did not gift it to me.

brightfame52 said:


I simply do not know how @brightfame52 explains these verses.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Romans 11:20
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

ESPECIALLY
Romans 11:23
And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. ( DEFINITELY NO GIFTING HERE!)
John 3:15
so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. (OR HERE)
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (HEARS MY WORD NOT RECEIVED THE GIFT OF FAITH)
John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,( NOT HERE EITHER)

John 20:31
but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Acts 10:43
Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:39
and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Luke 8:12
Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. (I ASK YOU. COULD THE DEVIL REALLY TAKE AWAY WHAT GOD HAS GIVEN?)

Romans 9:32
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Romans 4:14
For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;

I agree completely!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Again,

I see nothing about faith being a requirement to get saved. Faith is given as a Gift with Salvations by Grace

Can you be saved and not have faith?

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

You must believe the message to have faith. It is believing and trusting the Word of God that produces faith.

Faith is the act of believing! They are the same thing. Faith is not the result of belief, nor is belief the cause of faith; they are synonymous expressions. The cause of faith is the persuasion of truth by the Holy Spirit, ie, conviction.

The capacity for belief/faith is inherent to our creation, and is is exercised in every day life in a plethora of situations. The essence of faith in a spouse or business partner is essentially the same as our faith in God, for the ultimate question is not if we have faith, but in whom or what we place our faith.

Doug

 

[MTMattie]

Can you be saved and not have faith?

Doug

Jumping in here with what I seem to have understood with all of their posts.

Very simply.

Once you are saved. THEN you are given faith.

Seemingly... The grace that saves is a gift. The Faith to believe is a gift. And taking it a step farther... You have been given the gift of being predestined, yet your bowling club buddy living down the street has been deemed a reprobate with no chance.

.
But what makes no sense to me is .... Why would one need faith if they are already saved?

 

[brightfame52]

Can you be saved and not have faith?

Doug

How, when God gives one the Gift of Salvation by Grace, Faith accompanies it . Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is not required from man as a condition for God to save them.

 

[civic]

If you have salvation wouldn't you want to know about it ? Faith gives the knowledge, persuasion of ones salvation by Grace.

where does the bible say: faith gives knowledge ?

got scripture ?

 

[Johann]

where does the bible say: faith gives knowledge ?

got scripture ?

Zero Scripture references @civic.

J.

 

[MTMattie]

How, when God gives one the Gift of Salvation by Grace, Faith accompanies it . Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is not required from man as a condition for God to save them.

The gift is your salvation because of your faith. Basically it is your reward.

A better translation is

Ephesians 2:8

Complete Jewish Bible

8 For you have been delivered by grace through trusting, and even this is not your accomplishment but God’s gift.

Meaning you have not been saved/delivered because of anything you have done but only through trusting/belief/faith.​

Following are verses I have not weeded out, ( no time) that came as a response to asking Is Faith required from man as a condition for God to save them.

52 Bible verses about Faith, As Basis Of Salvation

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

52 Bible Verses about Faith, As Basis Of Salvation

Most Relevant Verses
Habakkuk 2:4
Verse Concepts
“Behold, as for the proud one,
His soul is not right within him;
But the righteous will live by his faith.

Genesis 15:6
Verse Concepts
Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Romans 4:9-16
Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,read more.

Hebrews 11:4
Verse Concepts
By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

Hebrews 11:5
Verse Concepts
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

Hebrews 11:7
Verse Concepts
By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

1 Corinthians 1:21
Verse Concepts
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Philippians 3:8-9
More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 3:27-28
Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 4:1-8
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”read more.

Psalm 32:1-2
A Psalm of David. A Maskil.
How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered!
How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit!

Romans 9:30-32
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Galatians 3:10-14
For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.”read more.

Deuteronomy 27:26
Verse Concepts
‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

John 3:14-16
As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Romans 10:9-10
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

John 8:24
Verse Concepts
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Acts 8:37
Verse Concepts
[And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”]

Acts 13:38-39
Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Romans 3:21-26
But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,read more.

Romans 4:24
Verse Concepts
but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

2 Corinthians 4:13-14
But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, “I believed, therefore I spoke,” we also believe, therefore we also speak, knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you.

Galatians 3:22
Verse Concepts
But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Romans 10:4
Verse Concepts
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Acts 15:7-9
After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Romans 3:29-30
Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Colossians 1:21-23
And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Hebrews 3:14
Verse Concepts
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Hebrews 6:11-12
And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

James 2:14
Verse Concepts
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Romans 5:1-2
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Galatians 2:15-16
“We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 5:5
Verse Concepts
For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

Luke 7:48-50
Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Acts 10:43
Verse Concepts
Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

John 1:12
Verse Concepts
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Galatians 3:26
Verse Concepts
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

John 7:38-39
He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Galatians 3:2
Verse Concepts
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Ephesians 1:13
Verse Concepts
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 3:17
Verse Concepts
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

1 Peter 1:5
Verse Concepts
who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Ephesians 3:12
Verse Concepts
in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.

Hebrews 10:22
Verse Concepts
let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Acts 26:17-18
rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Galatians 2:20
Verse Concepts
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

John 3:16
Verse Concepts
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 5:24
Verse Concepts
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
Verse Concepts
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 11:25-27
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” She *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.”

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Faith,-As-Basis-Of-Salvation

 

[Johann]

Meaning you have not been saved/delivered because of anything you have done but only through trusting/belief/faith.

For by grace (tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in Eph_2:5 and so with the article.
Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in Eph_2:5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours.
And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.

grace -- cf. Tit_2:11 Salvation is by the "grace" of God (cf. Eph_1:3-14). The character of God is revealed through His mercy (cf. Eph_2:4-6). Grace is best defined as the unmerited, undeserved love of God. It flows from God's nature through Christ and is irrespective of the worth or merit of the one loved. (BN)
"Grace" charis is feminine,
"Faith" pistis is feminine
"that" touto is neuter.

saved -- Salvation is the gift of God, it's grounds is God's grace. Salvation's source is not in man. This is a perfect passive periphrastic participle which is a repeat of Eph_2:5 (see note there). Its thrust is that "believers have been and continue to be" saved by God.
In the OT the term "save" spoke of "physical deliverance" (cf. ). In the NT this meaning has taken on a spiritual dimension. God delivers believers from the consequences of their sins and gives them eternal life. (Isa_59:2) He restores their fellowship with God again.

through faith -- Mankind must respond to God's offer of grace and forgiveness in Christ (cf. Joh_1:12; Joh_3:16-17; Joh_3:36; Joh_6:40; Joh_11:25-26; Rom_10:9-13), and this is done through a faith that "trusts and obeys." Salvation by faith means we trust in God's trustworthy promises and yeild oursleves to him as our Lord, which means then that we keep is commandments. (John 14;15; 1Jn_5:3; 2Jn_1:6)

and that -- This is the Greek demonstrative pronoun (touto), which is neuter in gender. The closest nouns, "grace" and "faith," are both feminine in gender. Therefore, this must refer to the whole process of salvation as completed in Christ. (Utley)
“That” refers to the entire previous statement of salvation. FSB

not of yourselves -- This is the first of three phrases which clearly show that salvation is not based on human performance: (1) "not of yourselves" Eph_2:8; (2) "gift of God" Eph_2:8; and (3) "not as a result of works (either OT works or one's own merit) " Eph_2:9.

gift -- Also see Heb_6:4 -- Heavenly gifts -- forgivness of sins, salvaion. The paradox of salvation as both a free gift and a mandated covenant response are difficult to grasp. Yet both are true! Salvation is truly free, yet costs everything. (Utley).

Eph 2:8 For by unmerited Chen v'Chesed Hashem you have been delivered from Hashem's Mishpat (Judgment) and granted a share in the Geulah (Redemption), through emunah; and this is not [an ainfal (intuitive idea)] of yourselves, it is a matnat Hashem (gift of G-d);
Eph 2:9 Not the result [of the zchus (merit)] of doing ma’asim (works) [Ac 15:1; Ga 5:3 4], so that before Hashem no man should be a ravrevan (boaster, braggart). [DEVARIM 9:5]

J.

 

[brightfame52]

where does the bible say: faith gives knowledge ?

got scripture ?

Where does it say it doesnt give knowledge ? Faith is persuasion

 

[brightfame52]

@MTMattie

The gift is your salvation because of your faith

False, Faith accompanies Salvation by Grace !

 

[civic]

Where does it say it doesnt give knowledge ? Faith is persuasion

nope persuasion leads to faith which is the opposite of what you claim

“Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas.” (Acts 17:4)

“Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.” (Acts 18:4)

“This man is persuading the people to worship God.” (Acts 18:13)

“(Paul was) arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God.” (Acts 19:8)

“Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to become a Christian?” (Acts 26:28)

“They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.” (Acts‬ ‭28:23-24‬)

“Since then we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men.” (2 Corinthians 5:11)

Vine’s Dictionary of New Testament Words describes the word “persuade” as follows: ”

To prevail upon or win over, to bring about a change of mind by the influence of reason or moral considerations.”

 

[brightfame52]

nope persuasion leads to faith which is the opposite of what you claim

“Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas.” (Acts 17:4)

“Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.” (Acts 18:4)

“This man is persuading the people to worship God.” (Acts 18:13)

“(Paul was) arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God.” (Acts 19:8)

“Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to become a Christian?” (Acts 26:28)

“They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.” (Acts‬ ‭28:23-24‬)

“Since then we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men.” (2 Corinthians 5:11)

Vine’s Dictionary of New Testament Words describes the word “persuade” as follows: ”

To prevail upon or win over, to bring about a change of mind by the influence of reason or moral considerations.”

Faith is persuasion. Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


Faith means being sure of the things we hope for. And faith means knowing that something is real even if we do not see it. ICB

The word faith is from the greek word peithō:
persuade

1. to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

It believes persuades of the Knowledge of the Truth 1 Tim 2:4


Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Gill writes:

come to the knowledge of the truth: of Christ, who is the truth, and to faith in him, and of all the truth of the Gospel, as it is in Jesus; not merely to a notional knowledge of it, which persons may arrive unto, and not be saved, but a spiritual and experimental knowledge of it; and all that are saved are brought to such a knowledge, which is owing to the sovereign will and good pleasure of God, who hides the knowledge of Gospel truths from the wise and prudent, and reveals them to babes

 

[civic]

Faith is persuasion. Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


Faith means being sure of the things we hope for. And faith means knowing that something is real even if we do not see it. ICB

The word faith is from the greek word peithō:
persuade

1. to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

It believes persuades of the Knowledge of the Truth 1 Tim 2:4


Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Gill writes:

nope read the scriptures where Paul persuades UNBELIEVERS to believe.

next fallacy

 

[brightfame52]

nope read the scriptures where Paul persuades UNBELIEVERS to believe.

next fallacy

You cant see it.

 

[civic]

You cant see it.

projecting again its you who is in DE NILE and cannot see and understand the Apostle Paul below :

We see Paul persuaded, reasoned, convinced unbelievers to believe

“Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas.” (Acts 17:4)

“Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.” (Acts 18:4)

“This man is persuading the people to worship God.” (Acts 18:13)

“(Paul was) arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God.” (Acts 19:8)

“Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to become a Christian?” (Acts 26:28)

“They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.” (Acts‬ ‭28:23-24‬)

“Since then we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men.” (2 Corinthians 5:11)

Vine’s Dictionary of New Testament Words describes the word “persuade” as follows: ”

To prevail upon or win over, to bring about a change of mind by the influence of reason or moral considerations.”

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

@civic

nope read the scriptures where Paul persuades UNBELIEVERS to believe.

Sure, born again unbelievers, for Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. Until a dead sinner is born again, he cant believe,

The Spirit of God is the cause of regeneration. Faith is the effect, the "fruit of the Spirit" (Gal. 5:22)

So when an regenerated unbeliever spiritually hears the Gospel, they are persuaded, they believe.

 

[MTMattie]

@MTMattie



False, Faith accompanies Salvation by Grace !

WRONG

 

[brightfame52]

WRONG

You think Im wrong

 

[MTMattie]

You think Im wrong

Yes I do.

I have gone over and over it adnaseum but you fail to hear, read or understand.