DavidTree
Well-known member
Good Morning Brother,
Thank you for this outline.
Is this outline from you or is it the summation of the video?
What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?
- Thread starter Aeliana
- Start date
Thank you for this outline.
Is this outline from you or is it the summation of the video?
Johann
Well-known member
Summation of the video brother.
DavidTree
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
Only a pleasure brother.
DavidTree
Well-known member
I would like to ask you to use your knowledge base of scripture and look at the outline from the video and let me know if anything jumps out that is either highly questionable or even contrary to the Scriptures.
Take your time and if you see anything that just dosen't match up to scripture = please post it for us.
Johann
Well-known member
Who are the us? Not being facetious here.
Johann
Well-known member
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
How did this teaching of the apostle Paul ever come to be called the Rapture? The answer lies in the word translated "shall be caught up" (Greek harpagésómetha). In Latin, this word is rapere, from which "rapture" is derived. Free of any arcane or mysterious interpretation, it simply means "to be caught up," "snatched," or "seized."
The trouble begins when people confuse this meaning with another definition of rapture that has nothing to do with the biblical concept: "a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion; a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things." When people blur these meanings, a picture develops of a strange, otherworldly experience preached by fire-breathing preachers to compel sinners to repent before God's wrath burns them to cinders.
Those who teach the Rapture frequently begin with I Thessalonians 4:16-17, but soon afterward they move into areas unsupported in the Bible. They make assumptions that are suspect. Worst, they fail to consider the clear order of events presented in Revelation, pinpointing when this astounding miracle will occur.
What do they believe? They believe that at some point in the near future, Jesus Christ will return and "snatch away" all Christians on the earth. Those who "believe" in Jesus will rise to meet Him in the air, and He will whisk them off to heaven for a 3 ½-to-seven-year Marriage Supper. In the meantime here on earth, untold destruction occurs when professing "born-again Christians" suddenly vanish while at the controls of cars, trucks, trains, airplanes, heavy equipment, and the like. "Unsaved" relatives and friends will frantically and unsuccessfully search for their raptured loved ones. The media will provide 24-hour coverage of the mysterious disappearance of millions of people, speculating wildly on its cause—everything from a mass alien abduction to shifting dimensions and levels of consciousness.
On the other hand, the biblical teaching of the first resurrection is more straightforward. On the day Christ returns to earth to establish His Kingdom, the dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive and converted will follow. They will meet Him in the air and immediately return to earth as a vast army of spirit beings to defeat the Beast and False Prophet in the Valley of Jehoshaphat (Revelation 19:14; Joel 3:1-2; Zechariah 14:1-5).
Notice two vast differences in these scenarios:
The Protestant Rapture takes place either 3 ½ or seven years before Christ's return, while the Bible shows it will occur at His second coming. For this reason, the Protestant concept is often called the "Pre-tribulation Rapture."
When believers are "caught up" in the air, Protestants believe, they will go immediately to heaven for a long, spectacular feast. The Bible shows, though, that the saints will return to earth to fight in Christ's heavenly army and to help establish God's Kingdom.
Succinctly, then, the two differences are in timing and destination.
Richard T. Ritenbaugh.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Yup - and 2 Thess 2:7 seems to indicate that before all hell breaks loose the one that resists has to be taken out. so the 1 Thess 4:17 "Caught away" seems to fit, since if the Holy Spirit (Who withholds) is taken out, then we who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit would go also.The above passages are the typical ones used by those who hold to a pre-trib rapture. Just an FYI for the readers.
The "Left Behind" fiction presented the "Tribulation force" fantasy, where people were still getting "Saved" in the tribulation, and the "Antichrist" was too stupid to know what was going on. But if the Holy Spirit is GONE, then that wouldn't make any sense. (they ran out of story before they ran out of books. I liked the "Christ Clone Trilogy" by Beausigneur, better, as "religious fiction" goes.
PERSONALLY, I expect that nobody "disappears" in the "Rapture". I expect we'll just die physically, and Go to Him in Spirit with our new bodies (Transformed), and the world will have to explain why millions of people suddenly "just died simultaneously" without a cause. And, of course there'd be the "Cleanup". The Media will have a field day!!!!
Of Course, my attitude about "Eschatology" is that it's all nothing but "Rank Speculation" anyway, so I'll just take it as it comes. HEY!!! I may well just die naturally (like the doctors told me that I might back in 1992 - they gave me till 2004 so the joke's on them).
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Precious friend, I appreciate your friendly and respectful discussion in this thread,
us pre- [ fibber ] -tribbers being dis-respected in Many other places...
If I may, but not ganging up on you with precious brother @Johann, offer you my own
[ 18-month ] personal [ having never reviewed Darby's stuff ] Scriptural study outline?:
If I may not, then simply ignore the following, OK?:
(1A) Peace With God! "Receiving" The Holy Spirit For "understanding"?
(1B) 1A "E - X - P - A - N - D - E - D" For Further "Clarification"?
(2a) Which Bible: AV or, Any "newer modern version" will suffice?
(2b) AV And God's Excellent "study" Rules!?
(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - "Brief" Introduction...
(3b) Three "Ages" Rightly Divided! = God's Timelines?
(4) Which "Gospel!" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?
(5) Great Tribulation? or, *tribulations/Great Grace Departure!?*
(6) Pre-TOJT Grace Departure "Expectations!"?
(7) God's Heavenly UPlook For His Body!?
(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking for Whom! or, "signs"?
(9) He "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out!?"
(10) "Day Of Christ!" Rightly
Divided from {RDf}: "The Day Of The LORD"?
(11) Confidence in death/resurrection!, Or, in living/glorification!!?
(12) Christ Will Return "Without Warning!"?
(13) The Two "Trumps" Of God!, In His "Age Of Grace!"?
(14) Meeting Him "In The Air!" to Heaven!! vs
U-turn ( theology? ) Back To earth?
(15) Preparation For Judgment!?
(16) Post Departure "Deception! Question"?
Any of the above sections are available upon request, not being posted yet...
+
This has been posted:
(17) Conclusion Summary Of God's Great Grace Departure To Glory!
Precious brother, I will highly respect your decision if you keep post-trib after prayerful
and Careful reviewing / examination of all Scriptural Evidence, and hope that is mutual
toward us as well [ this Controversial doctrine being NON-salvific, eh? ].
Brother Chris Endrizzi
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Precious friend, you do realize, of course that "The Holy Spirit Is Omnipresent," and not going
anywhere, thus, better would be "The Influence" of The Holy Spirit Through The Body Of Christ
"prayer warriors and standing soldiers" [ restraining ] Against evil will be "taken out,"...
...When The Body Of Christ Is resurrected / raptured, eh?
Amen.
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DavidTree
Well-known member
us = Bereans
DavidTree
Well-known member
"On the other hand, the biblical teaching of the first resurrection is more straightforward. On the day Christ returns to earth to establish His Kingdom, the dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive and converted will follow. They will meet Him in the air and immediately return to earth as a vast army of spirit beings to defeat the Beast and False Prophet in the Valley of Jehoshaphat (Revelation 19:14; Joel 3:1-2; Zechariah 14:1-5)."
This explanation is straightforward, CLEAR, unambiguous, and simply reflects the EXACT words of the OT Prophets, the LORD and the Apostles.
Johann
Well-known member
Thanks-I believe I have answered-but feel free to correct errors if and when you see them.
I also am in agreement with @Grace ambassador post to you dear friend.
Johann.
DavidTree
Well-known member
i would like for you and @Johann to review the outline in Post #60 (thanks to Johann) for obvious 'Red Flag' errors(not from Johann).
There are at least 3 statements that are easily shown to be contrary to Scripture and are 'antichrist' in their nature.
When i say 'antichrist' i mean that they directly oppose the word(s) of God.
Please post the 3 if you can SEE = there may be more!
Johann
Well-known member
Wow!
Thought you are going to disagree-this is giving me hope-I really mean that.
God bless @DavidTree.
Johann.
Johann
Well-known member
I will allow @Grace ambassador the opportunity to respond-eschatology is not my strong point. And see how he is "seeing" the 3 errors which I don't see?
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Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Sorry, precious friend, I don't see any obvious 'Red Flag' errors; what do you see?
The only potential problem may be the one of defining "the church", imho...
DavidTree
Well-known member
b. The rapture is secret because of how it was revealed – Rom 16:25 = from Post #60
"The rapture is a secret" SEE if this statement matches up correctly with Rom 16:25
The next two statements are 100% antichrist and they are a heresy of violence!
"c. The church is not mentioned at all in Prophecy, so neither is it’s catching away" = from Post #60
"The rapture of the church is not even a prophetic end time event" = from Post #60
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Reminds me of this auto dealer. I don't think that word means what they think it means.
Johann
Well-known member
Part 53: The Church in the Wilderness — The Prophesied Church — The Church of the Mystery
by Pastor J. C. O'Hair
The seventh chapter of Acts records Stephen’s message to Israel in Jerusalem. In reviewing Israel’s history Stephen made reference to “the Church in the wilderness.”
“THIS IS HE, THAT WAS IN THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS WITH THE ANGEL WHICH SPAKE TO HIM IN THE MOUNT SINAI, AND WITH OUR FATHERS: WHO RECEIVED THE LIVELY ORACLES TO GIVE UNTO US.” Acts 7:38.
Then in Hebrews 2:12 we find a fulfillment of the prophecy of Psalm 22:22 concerning God’s Church or Congregation. Note first, Psalm 22:22 and then, Hebrews 2:12.
“I will declare Thy name unto My brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise Thee.”
“I WILL DECLARE THY NAME UNTO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CHURCH WILL I SING PRAISE UNTO THEE.”
Now, by way of comparison, read Colossians 1:24 to 26 and Ephesians 3:4 to 6
“WHO NOW REJOICE IN MY SUFFERINGS FOR YOU, AND FILL UP THAT WHICH IS BEHIND OF THE AFFLICTIONS OF CHRIST IN MY FLESH FOR HIS BODY’S SAKE, WHICH IS THE CHURCH: WHEREOF I AM MADE A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE DISPENSATION OF GOD WHICH IS GIVEN TO ME FOR YOU, TO FULFIL THE WORD OF GOD; EVEN THE MYSTERY WHICH HATH BEEN HID FROM AGES AND FROM GENERATIONS, BUT NOW IS MADE MANIFEST TO HIS SAINTS.”
“Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same (Joint) Body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel.”
Before we consider these three “CHURCHES” let us read Acts 19:32, 37, 39 and 41.
“Some therefore cried one thing, and some another; for the assembly was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.”
“For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess.”
“But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly.”
“And when he had spoken, he dismissed the assembly.”
The disciples of Christ were in the midst of an angry mob of idolatrous heathen, in the theatre at Ephesus. The mob was called “an assembly.” The Greek word translated “assembly” is “ekklesia.” You and I have just as much right to call that mob of heathen “a church” as the translators had to call God’s company of saints “a church.”
The word “church” or “churches” is found about 117 times in the New Testament Scriptures. With the single exception of Acts 19:37, every time the word “church” is found in the Bible the Greek word is, “ekklesia.” Note the expression, ‘`robbers of churches,” in Acts 19:37. This expression is translated from two Greek words: “sulao” meaning “to rob,” and “heiron,” meaning “temple.” More than fifty times in the New Testament Scriptures the temple at Jerusalem is in the Greek “heiron.”
I am sure then that you would like to join with me in asking the translators why they have left us in such confusion. Why did they translate “heiron,” “churches”?
Why did they translate “ekklesia” three times “assembly” in Acts 19, and 116 times “church”? Where did they get such a word as “church”? “Ekklesia” should never have been translated “church.”
The word “church” is a form of “Kurios.” “Kurios” is translated many, many times “Lord.” So see how indefinite and vague is the translation of “Ekkesia,” “of the Lord” To be sure “the assembly” at Ephesus in the theatre was “of the devil,” but it was an “ekkesia.” The “ekkesia” described in Ephesians 1:22 and 23 is “of the Lord.” Note these verses
“AND HATH PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET, AND GAVE HIM TO BE HEAD OVER ALL THINGS TO THE CHURCH, WHICH IS HIS BODY, THE FULNESS OF HIM THAT FILLETH ALL IN ALL.”
“Ekklesia” is from the Greek “kaleo,” “call,” “ek,” “out.” “The Church” means “the called-out.”
Now note I Timothy 3:15 and 16
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in THE HOUSE OF GOD, which is THE CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD, THE PILLAR AND GROUND OF THE TRUTH. And without controversy great is the mystery.”
Here we read of “the Church of the living God,” “the Ekklesia of the living God,” “the pillar and ground of the truth,” “the House of God,” “the mystery.” There is no reference here to an assembly-hall or meeting place. “The House of God” is a building made of human beings. “The Church of God,” during this present Divine economy, is called, “the Body of Christ,” “the fulness of Christ.”
You and I know perfectly well that no building of stone, brick, or wood, could be the fulness of Christ. Think of the utter confusion of the religious world today. A meeting-place is called “a church.” The majority of the people who attend the meetings in the building, as well as the preacher, may be unsaved. The name “church,” “of the Lord,” is misleading when applied to unsaved human beings gathered in a so-called “church” building. Many people seem to associate the building in some way with God, though God may have nothing to do with it.
The short version brother.
