What is a "Salvation Issue"?

[Doug Brents]

You dont make disciples of dead people, lost people. A disciple:

1. to be a disciple of one
   1. to follow his precepts and instructions
2. to make a disciple
   1. to teach, instruct

You dont teach and instruct spiritually dead people sir, they are alive

They are reborn when they are baptized into Christ, and the Holy Spirit cuts their sin from them and resurrects them (Col 2:11-14). Everyone is dead in sin until they are resurrected by the power of Jesus' blood.

 

[Doug Brents]

It would not be against the rules of this forum for you to tell me that I am securely on my way to heaven. So there's only one other possibility - that is, you think my soul is in danger of hell, even though I have been saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It is sin to talk people out of their salvation.

Those about whom Jesus is speaking in Matt 7:21-23 also thought they were saved. They believed they were saved, and did mighty works in His name. But He says that not only does He not know them now, but He NEVER knew them. They were never His, never saved, and lived their whole life in delusion and condemnation.

You are essentially doing the same thing that the Judaizers did, only their requirement for salvation, was that a person must be circumcised in order to be saved. Yours is not only water baptism and confessing Jesus is Lord, but also the "proper" belief that your salvation occurred only at your water baptism, not before.

The Judaizers wanted to force the Gentile converts to keep the Law of Moses in addition to the law of Christ. I do not.
I seek to have the truth of the Gospel taught, not only on this forum, but also in all the Churches that claim to belong to Christ: the truth found in Scripture that the Holy Spirit enters our hearts, removes our sins, and resurrects our soul in Christ when we are buried in baptism (in water) as commanded in Scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

They are reborn when they are baptized into Christ, and the Holy Spirit cuts their sin from them and resurrects them (Col 2:11-14). Everyone is dead in sin until they are resurrected by the power of Jesus' blood.

Jesus sent the Apostles out to disciple them He had saved. His Death saved them, just like He was sent to do Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Now He finished that task, left nothing undone ! You dont seem to believe that.

But those lost whom He saved, they need to be taught, this is spiritual teaching now

You dont make disciples of dead people duh.

 

[Doug Brents]

Jesus sent the Apostles out to disciple them He had saved. His Death saved them, just like He was sent to do Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Now He finished that task, left nothing undone ! You dont seem to believe that.

But those lost whom He saved, they need to be taught, this is spiritual teaching now

You dont make disciples of dead people duh.

His death SAVES them (not saved) when they believe and obey the Gospel. Saul was dead, and lost in sin, until Ananias baptized him (Acts 22:16). The eunuch was dead, and lost in sin, until Philip baptized him in Acts 8:38. Each person to whom we preach the Gospel today is dead, and lost in sin, until we baptize them into Christ.

Jesus did not send the disciples to go and find the other disciples and tell them that they are already saved so they can rejoice.
Jesus sent the disciples to MAKE NEW DISCIPLES, and the ones who believe the Gospel and are baptized into Christ will receive salvation at that time.

 

[brightfame52]

His death SAVES them (not saved) when they believe and obey the Gospel. Saul was dead, and lost in sin, until Ananias baptized him (Acts 22:16). The eunuch was dead, and lost in sin, until Philip baptized him in Acts 8:38. Each person to whom we preach the Gospel today is dead, and lost in sin, until we baptize them into Christ.

Jesus did not send the disciples to go and find the other disciples and tell them that they are already saved so they can rejoice.
Jesus sent the disciples to MAKE NEW DISCIPLES, and the ones who believe the Gospel and are baptized into Christ will receive salvation at that time.

You deny that Christs death saved them He died for . Thats what He was sent to do Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

1 Tim 1:15

5 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Now either He saved them or He did not. Which one is it ?

 

[Handaan]

Life isn't supposed to be complicated. Jesus didn't die so we could live complicated, frustrated, miserable lives. He died for us so we could enjoy life. The minute everything gets complicated, it steals joy. We need to learn how live a lifestyle of simplicity. Simplicity means "single, consisting of one thing, unmingled."

God just wants us to be about Him. He tells us in His Word that we won't inherit His kingdom if we don't come to Him very simply as a little child and say, "I believe."

That almost sounds too easy, and you might want to complicate it...but don't! God's plan for you is simple. It may not make sense to your mind, but there's nothing complicated about God, and He doesn't want you to be complicated. Make Him your "One Thing."

 

[Doug Brents]

You deny that Christs death saved them He died for . Thats what He was sent to do Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

1 Tim 1:15

5 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Now either He saved them or He did not. Which one is it ?

The problem you have is that you put the time of everyone's salvation at the moment of Jesus death (or resurrection), because you think that it is only what He did that has any importance. No one could have been saved if He had not died, but each individual's salvation did not happen at that instant. It was provided for (made possible), but it did not happen then. It happens when, after hearing the Gospel, they believe in Him and are baptized into Him. That is when their sin is cut from them, and when they are resurrected with Him.

 

[brightfame52]

His death SAVES them (not saved) when they believe and obey the Gospel. Saul was dead, and lost in sin, until Ananias baptized him (Acts 22:16). The eunuch was dead, and lost in sin, until Philip baptized him in Acts 8:38. Each person to whom we preach the Gospel today is dead, and lost in sin, until we baptize them into Christ.

Jesus did not send the disciples to go and find the other disciples and tell them that they are already saved so they can rejoice.
Jesus sent the disciples to MAKE NEW DISCIPLES, and the ones who believe the Gospel and are baptized into Christ will receive salvation at that time.

All the sinners Christ saved by His Death are still born sinners sir in need of their Salvation being applied to them. However even before that happens, and it shall happen, they are forgiven and Justified, and redeemed by the Blood of Christ. In due time the Spirit applies the saving merit of Christ unto the saved, they are born again, then the Gospel is preached to them.

 

[Doug Brents]

All the sinners Christ saved by His Death are still born sinners sir in need of their Salvation being applied to them. However even before that happens, and it shall happen, they are forgiven and Justified, and redeemed by the Blood of Christ. In due time the Spirit applies the saving merit of Christ unto the saved, they are born again, then the Gospel is preached to them.

A person cannot be forgiven and justified and still be a sinner in need of "salvation being applied to them". You are either saved/forgiven/justified (all mean the same thing) or your are not.

 

[brightfame52]

A person cannot be forgiven and justified and still be a sinner in need of "salvation being applied to them". You are either saved/forgiven/justified (all mean the same thing) or your are not.

Christs Death took away their sins. So they're forgiven 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Heb 9

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

 

[brightfame52]

@Doug Brents

A person cannot be forgiven and justified and still be a sinner in need of "salvation being applied to them".

Sure they can, Justification and forgiveness are legal aspects of Salvation, accomplished by Christs Blood, but application is spiritual aspect from the power and dominion of sin out of spiritual death. The Spirit applies the Spiritual aspect of What Christ accomplished in Saving His People from their sins.

The work of the Ministry is for the calling and edifying of the Saved body of Christ Eph 4:10-13

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[Doug Brents]

Christs Death took away their sins. So they're forgiven 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Heb 9

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Let me ask you a question: you put water in a tub so that you can take a bath. The bath is there to take away your dirtiness, but you have not yet gotten into the bath. Are you already clean? No. Just because you have drawn up the bath does not make you clean. You must first get into the bath and wash before you are clean. So too with our sin. Jesus "drew the bath" and provided the way for our sins to be removed, but we are not forgiven of those sins until our sins are cut from us by the Holy Spirit in baptism (Col 2:11-14).

 

[Doug Brents]

Sure they can, Justification and forgiveness are legal aspects of Salvation, accomplished by Christs Blood, but application is spiritual aspect from the power and dominion of sin out of spiritual death. The Spirit applies the Spiritual aspect of What Christ accomplished in Saving His People from their sins.

The work of the Ministry is for the calling and edifying of the Saved body of Christ Eph 4:10-13

Eph 4:10-13 applies to those who are already in the Church. It does not apply to those who have not yet been saved. The work of the ministry (and everyone who is in Christ is a minister of Christ) is to seek out those who are lost who want to be saved (not everyone does) and teach them how they can become saved: through the blood of Christ. And then to edify and educate them so that they are firm in their faith and can join in the ministry.

 

[brightfame52]

Eph 4:10-13 applies to those who are already in the Church. It does not apply to those who have not yet been saved. The work of the ministry (and everyone who is in Christ is a minister of Christ) is to seek out those who are lost who want to be saved (not everyone does) and teach them how they can become saved: through the blood of Christ. And then to edify and educate them so that they are firm in their faith and can join in the ministry.

Those who Christ died for are legally saved, reconciled to God by His Death ? Is that True Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[brightfame52]

@Doug Brents

Eph 4:10-13 applies to those who are already in the Church.

No it doesnt, thats why some do the work of an evangelist Eph 4:12

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Evangelist take the word to the regenerated who may not be in a local assembly. Like Phillip the evangelist Acts 21 8

And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him

God sent him to a regenerated elect ethiopian in a chariot Acts 8:26-31

26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

You see how that works ?

 

[Doug Brents]

Those who Christ died for are legally saved, reconciled to God by His Death ? Is that True Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Jesus' death reconciled the whole world, for all men were drawn to Him when He was raised up. All men were enemies of God before Jesus' death, and while we were enemies, even though we were enemies, He chose to die for us anyway. And now, being reconciled, we have the opportunity to be saved if we choose to accept Him as our Lord. If we don't, we remain lost and condemned.

No it doesnt, thats why some do the work of an evangelist Eph 4:12

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Evangelist take the word to the regenerated who may not be in a local assembly. Like Phillip the evangelist Acts 21 8

There are some who are better suited by gift and temperament to preach from a pulpit. Yet there is not a single disciple of Christ's who is not commissioned to go, teach, and make additional disciples (Matt 28:19-20) through their life, their daily walk, and their example to everyone they come in contact with. Everyone is to (as the quote goes), "Preach Christ, and if you must, use words."

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus' death reconciled the whole world, for all men were drawn to Him when He was raised up. All men were enemies of God before Jesus' death, and while we were enemies, even though we were enemies, He chose to die for us anyway. And now, being reconciled, we have the opportunity to be saved if we choose to accept Him as our Lord. If we don't, we remain lost and condemned.

There are some who are better suited by gift and temperament to preach from a pulpit. Yet there is not a single disciple of Christ's who is not commissioned to go, teach, and make additional disciples (Matt 28:19-20) through their life, their daily walk, and their example to everyone they come in contact with. Everyone is to (as the quote goes), "Preach Christ, and if you must, use words."

So is a person reconciled to God by Christs death forgiven of their sins and at peace with God

 

[Doug Brents]

So is a person reconciled to God by Christs death forgiven of their sins and at peace with God

Is the person standing by the tub of hot water already clean?

Rom 5:19 makes the distinction between reconciliation and salvation. They are two different things. The drawing of the bath is God reaching out to us in reconciliation. But that does not automatically make us clean. We must willingly enter the bath in order to be cleaned. The Holy Spirit only cuts our sins away from us when we are buried with Christ in baptism.

 

[brightfame52]

Is the person standing by the tub of hot water already clean?

Rom 5:19 makes the distinction between reconciliation and salvation. They are two different things. The drawing of the bath is God reaching out to us in reconciliation. But that does not automatically make us clean. We must willingly enter the bath in order to be cleaned. The Holy Spirit only cuts our sins away from us when we are buried with Christ in baptism.

So is a person reconciled to God by Christs death forgiven of their sins and at peace with God

A reconciled person doesnt have sins imputed to them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[dwight92070]

Jesus said, "I am the door (of the sheep); if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture." John 10:9
Notice we do not enter through water baptism (wb).

"even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:14-15
Only one requirement to have eternal life, and it's not wb.

"He who believes in Him is not condemned;" John 3:18
It does not say, "and is wb"

"Whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him ... it will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:13
Drink of that water and have eternal life.
No mention of wb.

"... he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death unto life." John 5:24
When do we pass from death into life? When we are wb? No, when we hear Jesus' word and believe in the Father who sent Him.

"... the hour is coming and now is, when the (spiritually dead) will hear the voice of the Son of God, ; and those who hear will live." John 5:25
But you also have to get baptized in water - oh wait a minute - He didn't say that, did He?

"But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life

Not all who think they are part of the Church are born again. Not all who think they serve God are known by Him. There are many whole churches that have never had God as a part of their fellowship.

No, you made the decision to become saved, and then two weeks later you were baptized into Christ and became saved.

So you are saying you were not baptized into Christ, confessing your belief in His deity and messiah-ship (the confession upon which the Church is built (Matt 16:16))? If you did make that confession at your baptism, then you were saved during your baptism (but not two weeks before).

It is against the rules of this forum for me to answer that question honestly, and I will not lie to you.

Dwight - So did everyone catch that? I was saved by grace through faith in Jesus and baptized in water about 2 weeks later and have even confessed Jesus as my Lord many times since. But according to Doug, I am lost and bound for hell because I actually believed in Jesus and believed I was born again 2 weeks before I was baptized in water. I actually thought my sins were forgiven, that the Holy Spirit entered into me, and that I entered into the body of Christ at that same time, 2 weeks before baptism. I guess I mistakenly accepted the promises of Christ that if I believed in Him I would be saved right then. Little did I realize that His promise of eternal life could not happen, unless I got baptized in water first. Now 54 years later, I finally hear the truth. I guess all those years of believing false doctrine, count for nothing now.

Even Paul too was mistaken about how important water baptism was when he said, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, ..." 1 Corinthians 1:17
He mistakenly thought that getting people saved through preaching the gospel, was more important that getting them baptized. How could he not know that it was only in them getting baptized, that they even could be saved? It's unfortunate that Doug didn't live at that time, so he could have warned Paul.