What is a "Salvation Issue"?

[brightfame52]

@Doug Brents

Jesus' death reconciled the whole world,

False statement, only a world of people whose sins are not imputed to them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Nobody lost in their sins is included in this world, so its the elect

 

[Hosanna]

2 Corinthians 5:19, expresses the Christian belief that God was working through Christ to restore his relationship with humanity and forgive their sins. This verse also implies that God has entrusted his followers with the task of sharing this message of reconciliation with others. Another verse that relates to this theme is Romans 5:6-8, which shows God's love for sinners by sending Christ to die for them.

6For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[brightfame52]

When Jesus said it was finished, He meant it. What was finished ? What He came to do, to accomplish in His Fathers will. Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Again 1 Tim 1:15

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Now did He accomplish the Will of His Father ? Did He seek and save ALL THAT WAS LOST ?

Jn 19 30

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Yes Jesus completed the Task, everyone the Father wills to be saved, its Christs Job to accomplish it 1 Tim 2:4-6

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Who is the All ? Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

When Jesus died for these sinners that were lost, He saved through His Death, all of them,

Lets read Heb 10:10-14

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

See that ? Every sinner He died for has been sanctified unto God and Perfected for ever !

 

[Doug Brents]

So is a person reconciled to God by Christs death forgiven of their sins and at peace with God

A reconciled person doesnt have sins imputed to them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Read the context of the passage, not just the verse that seems to say what you want it to say.
"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
Some of the people who Paul knew would read His letter were not yet in Christ, and as such, not yet justified by God. Yes, Christ did the work that allows reconciliation to God, but we are not yet forgiven by Him until we accept His grace. Reconciliation has two sides, God has reached out to us, but we also must reach out to Him. If He draws the bath, makes it just the right temperature, adds scents and soothing oils, and makes it the most luxurious experience imaginable, but we refuse to get in the tub then we do not receive the cleansing available in the bath. He does NOT pick us up and put us in the tub against our will.

 

[Doug Brents]

Jesus said, "I am the door (of the sheep); if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture." John 10:9
Notice we do not enter through water baptism (wb).

Water baptism is not mentioned in this passage, but are you saying that this passage is more important, more God's Word, than 1 Pet 3:21?

"even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:14-15
Only one requirement to have eternal life, and it's not wb.

Water baptism is not mentioned in this passage, but are you saying that this passage is more important, more God's Word, than Acts 2:38?

"He who believes in Him is not condemned;" John 3:18
It does not say, "and is wb"

Water baptism is not mentioned in this passage, but are you saying that this passage is more important, more God's Word, than Acts 22:19?

"Whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him ... it will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:13
Drink of that water and have eternal life.
No mention of wb.

Water baptism is not mentioned in this passage, but are you saying that this passage is more important, more God's Word, than John 3:5?

Dwight - So did everyone catch that? I was saved by grace through faith in Jesus and baptized in water about 2 weeks later and have even confessed Jesus as my Lord many times since. But according to Doug, I am lost and bound for hell because I actually believed in Jesus and believed I was born again 2 weeks before I was baptized in water. I actually thought my sins were forgiven, that the Holy Spirit entered into me, and that I entered into the body of Christ at that same time, 2 weeks before baptism. I guess I mistakenly accepted the promises of Christ that if I believed in Him I would be saved right then. Little did I realize that His promise of eternal life could not happen, unless I got baptized in water first. Now 54 years later, I finally hear the truth. I guess all those years of believing false doctrine, count for nothing now.

Your sarcasm is heartfelt and real I am sure. But then, so was that of the people to whom Jesus says, "I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness." All those years they served, all those works they did, all those great deeds they did in Jesus' name meant nothing, because they did not have the relationship with Jesus first.

Even Paul too was mistaken about how important water baptism was when he said, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, ..." 1 Corinthians 1:17
He mistakenly thought that getting people saved through preaching the gospel, was more important that getting them baptized. How could he not know that it was only in them getting baptized, that they even could be saved? It's unfortunate that Doug didn't live at that time, so he could have warned Paul.

We have gone over that before, but your hard heart refuses to accept the truth. Paul was there to plant the seed of the Gospel. He knew that most seed does not sprout instantly upon planting. It takes time. So He did not come seeking a harvest at the first sermon. But he did baptize those who did sprout immediately, and left it to those who followed to water and fertilize the seed to reap the harvest. Paul did know the importance of baptism, because he did not let the jailer sleep on his decision to obey the Gospel, but took him that same hour of the night to baptize him. And he said in both Rom 6 and Col 2 that it is during water baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us with Christ's resurrection.

 

[Doug Brents]

False statement, only a world of people whose sins are not imputed to them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Nobody lost in their sins is included in this world, so its the elect

So now there are more than one WORLD? No, the world is the world, and everyone in it. You are stuck on this idea that Jesus only died for a few (the saved) when Scripture says that He died for everyone, quite explicitly in fact. Not everyone for whom Jesus died will surrender to Him and accept His grace, so not everyone He died for will be saved. But you are free to believe whatever you want to believe, and pay the consequence of that belief.

 

[MatthewG]

In this thread, I would like to explore how we should define the term "salvation issue". This is important in that it will set the foundation for exploring what Scripture says are the salvation issues, but I think we should set this definition first.

I would define it as "something that is an absolute requirement for receiving initial salvation from God."

Certainly there are things (like good works and fruit of the Spirit) that flow out of the life of one who has been saved. But how would you define the term "salvation issue"?

What’s the most common issue you have come to find out about?

Salvation, doesn’t it mean deliverance?

 

[Doug Brents]

What’s the most common issue you have come to find out about?

Salvation, doesn’t it mean deliverance?

I am not seeking information about a particular issue. I am wanting to see what issues people think are the core issues that lead to salvation. Things that, if left out, salvation is not received.

 

[brightfame52]

Read the context of the passage, not just the verse that seems to say what you want it to say.
"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
Some of the people who Paul knew would read His letter were not yet in Christ, and as such, not yet justified by God. Yes, Christ did the work that allows reconciliation to God, but we are not yet forgiven by Him until we accept His grace. Reconciliation has two sides, God has reached out to us, but we also must reach out to Him. If He draws the bath, makes it just the right temperature, adds scents and soothing oils, and makes it the most luxurious experience imaginable, but we refuse to get in the tub then we do not receive the cleansing available in the bath. He does NOT pick us up and put us in the tub against our will.

I did read the context, thats where I got the verses from 2 Cor 5:19. The world that was reconciled to God didnt have any sins imputed to it. Now Non imputation equates to forgiveness Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

So the reconciled are forgiven, they did nothing !

 

[brightfame52]

So now there are more than one WORLD? No, the world is the world, and everyone in it. You are stuck on this idea that Jesus only died for a few (the saved) when Scripture says that He died for everyone, quite explicitly in fact. Not everyone for whom Jesus died will surrender to Him and accept His grace, so not everyone He died for will be saved. But you are free to believe whatever you want to believe, and pay the consequence of that belief.

No the World in 2 Cor 5:19 is not everyone, its the Chosen Ones and they have no sin charged to them and so forgiven

Paul had told them they were called and chosen 1 Cor 1 26-28

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;


And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

 

[Doug Brents]

I did read the context, thats where I got the verses from 2 Cor 5:19. The world that was reconciled to God didnt have any sins imputed to it. Now Non imputation equates to forgiveness Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

So the reconciled are forgiven, they did nothing !

You read 2 Cor 5:19, but ignore verse 20. In verse 20 he is encouraging the listener to accept God's offering and be reconciled. If they are not yet reconciled then they are not yet forgiven. Again, it is not only what Jesus did that completes our reconciliation. He offers reconciliation, but if we do not accept it, then we are not completely reconciled, and we are not saved.

No the World in 2 Cor 5:19 is not everyone, its the Chosen Ones and they have no sin charged to them and so forgiven

Paul had told them they were called and chosen 1 Cor 1 26-28

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;


And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

All are called (John 12:32), but not all accept the calling (Matt 22:11-14). Jesus died for not only the sins of the saints, but the sins of everyone in the whole world (1 John 2:2). He is the propitiation (to gain or regain the favor or goodwill of : appease), for everyone. But only those who accept Him receive the benefit of this propitiation.

 

[brightfame52]

You read 2 Cor 5:19, but ignore verse 20. In verse 20 he is encouraging the listener to accept God's offering and be reconciled. If they are not yet reconciled then they are not yet forgiven. Again, it is not only what Jesus did that completes our reconciliation. He offers reconciliation, but if we do not accept it, then we are not completely reconciled, and we are not saved.

All are called (John 12:32), but not all accept the calling (Matt 22:11-14). Jesus died for not only the sins of the saints, but the sins of everyone in the whole world (1 John 2:2). He is the propitiation (to gain or regain the favor or goodwill of : appease), for everyone. But only those who accept Him receive the benefit of this propitiation.

I havent ignored anything. You doing the ignoring. The world of 2 Cor 5:19 is forgiven, they did nothing, God did it

 

[Doug Brents]

I havent ignored anything. You doing the ignoring. The world of 2 Cor 5:19 is forgiven, they did nothing, God did it

Reconciled (on God's part, but not on their own part) does not equate to forgiven. Only those who accept God's offer of reconciliation receive forgiveness of sins.

 

[brightfame52]

Reconciled (on God's part, but not on their own part) does not equate to forgiven. Only those who accept God's offer of reconciliation receive forgiveness of sins.

Then you are denying scripture. Being reconciled to God means sin not imputed which means forgiveness 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[Doug Brents]

Then you are denying scripture. Being reconciled to God means sin not imputed which means forgiveness 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

You and I are in a fight, and we both offend each other to the point that we "never want to speak to the other again!" But after some time, you come to me in reconciliation and offering to make it as if the fight never took place. But I don't receive you. I spurn your effort and turn my back on you. You have come to reconcile me to you. But I would not have it. You have reconciled me to you. But I have not accepted your reconciliation, and so I cannot enter back into the relationship we once had.

 

[brightfame52]

You and I are in a fight, and we both offend each other to the point that we "never want to speak to the other again!" But after some time, you come to me in reconciliation and offering to make it as if the fight never took place. But I don't receive you. I spurn your effort and turn my back on you. You have come to reconcile me to you. But I would not have it. You have reconciled me to you. But I have not accepted your reconciliation, and so I cannot enter back into the relationship we once had.

Reconciliation denotes non imputation of sin 2 Cor 5:19 which denotes forgiveness Rom 4 so to be reconciled to God means to be forgiven of all sin. And this while yet being enemies. So the reconciled did nothing for forgiveness of sins. You falsely teach men need to do requirements to get forgiveness from God

 

[Doug Brents]

Reconciliation denotes non imputation of sin 2 Cor 5:19 which denotes forgiveness Rom 4 so to be reconciled to God means to be forgiven of all sin. And this while yet being enemies. So the reconciled did nothing for forgiveness of sins. You falsely teach men need to do requirements to get forgiveness from God

Read the whole of 2 Cor 5. Remember, "therefore" means, "because of what I just said", and there are a lot of "therefore"s in 2 Cor 5. What is Paul saying? He says that because we long to be out of this Earthly body and clothed with our Heavenly body, and because we know that all will be judged by what he has done here on Earth, whether good or evil, we are to continually serve as ambassadors for Christ to the lost. Now, if all are already forgiven then there is no need to convince them of their sin and bring them to Christ. And if only some have been forgiven and there is no hope for those who have not already been forgiven, then there is no point in spending our life in trying to convince them of their sin. So these two beliefs would have made Paul's life work in vain.

Now Paul says that through Jesus God reconciled the World to Himself, and we are to be the ambassadors of this reconciliation to the world. This is not just bringing the knowledge of this reconciliation to those who have already been reconciled, but is bringing the news that reconciliation is possible to those who have not yet been reconciled so that they can become clothed with Christ and be forgiven.

 

[brightfame52]

Read the whole of 2 Cor 5. Remember, "therefore" means, "because of what I just said", and there are a lot of "therefore"s in 2 Cor 5. What is Paul saying? He says that because we long to be out of this Earthly body and clothed with our Heavenly body, and because we know that all will be judged by what he has done here on Earth, whether good or evil, we are to continually serve as ambassadors for Christ to the lost. Now, if all are already forgiven then there is no need to convince them of their sin and bring them to Christ. And if only some have been forgiven and there is no hope for those who have not already been forgiven, then there is no point in spending our life in trying to convince them of their sin. So these two beliefs would have made Paul's life work in vain.

Now Paul says that through Jesus God reconciled the World to Himself, and we are to be the ambassadors of this reconciliation to the world. This is not just bringing the knowledge of this reconciliation to those who have already been reconciled, but is bringing the news that reconciliation is possible to those who have not yet been reconciled so that they can become clothed with Christ and be forgiven.

I have read the whole chapter. 2 Cor 5:19 is about non imputation of sin, forgiveness without conditions.

 

[Doug Brents]

I have read the whole chapter. 2 Cor 5:19 is about non imputation of sin, forgiveness without conditions.

No, it is not about "forgiveness without conditions". There are many conditions that Scripture lists for the reception and continual possession of salvation. We must always keep the whole of Scripture in mind when we assign meaning to a particular verse, because no single verse can contradict the whole of Scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

No, it is not about "forgiveness without conditions". There are many conditions that Scripture lists for the reception and continual possession of salvation. We must always keep the whole of Scripture in mind when we assign meaning to a particular verse, because no single verse can contradict the whole of Scripture.

Yes it is, Reconciliation to God is solely by Christ 2 Cor 5:18-19

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

No conditions, and there bet not be any conditions stipulated when one preaches the word of reconciliation

That turns it into a false gospel