Thomas... My Lord and my God

[mikesw]

Jesus' spiritual presence with his followers, i.e. with believers has nothing to do with being being God. It's about his being present, in connection with us as a comforting assurance and involvement in our lives.

Huh? Is there some non-metaphysical sense that you are conveying here? Or maybe this like "my grandfather's spirit is still with me even though he died 40 years ago"

Either Jesus is God or he is a human being . . .

'and the Word was God' - not the Word who was God . . . that's not what it says. Grammatically without the definite article 'God' is the predicate nominative and as such is qualitative not equivalent. IOW, the word was the full expression of God or fully expressed who God is/was - so it was the full expression of God which became flesh and dwelt among us the only Son from the Father full of grace and truth. Jesus fully reflected, fully expressed who God was which is why he could say 'Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’'------- being the exact representation of God.

uh. The Word was God makes sense in the trinitarian perspective. The "Word who was God" sounds like an extermination of God such that the weird wording is nonsensical from any view. I have noted before how you force the idea into a modalist conception and then reject that option. But!! Trinitarians are not modalists.

Yes, Jesus is an integral part of eternal life for the believer because if you don't believe in the only begotten Son of God - you ain't got nothing! For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will...... For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.......“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.....Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. [John 5:21,25,26,28]
It seems God is not the only source of eternal life - It seems Jesus has been given all authority in heaven and on earth!!!

So you are saying that the Son, although not God, does everything that God does, despite these not being possible for a human. That is utterly nonsensical. But i guess unitarian logic does not mind that problem.

 

[Peterlag]

 

[mikesw]

View attachment 2664

Amazing. How to say nothing while showing it in a pretty graphical presentation. A testimony to unitarian logic.

 

[synergy]

Jesus' spiritual presence with his followers, i.e. with believers has nothing to do with being being God. It's about his being present, in connection with us as a comforting assurance and involvement in our lives.

Either Jesus is God or he is a human being . . .

So you don't think omnipresence is something that only God can possess? How many omnipresent people have you come across in your circles?

'and the Word was God' - not the Word who was God . . . that's not what it says. Grammatically without the definite article 'God' is the predicate nominative and as such is qualitative not equivalent. IOW, the word was the full expression of God or fully expressed who God is/was - so it was the full expression of God which became flesh and dwelt among us the only Son from the Father full of grace and truth. Jesus fully reflected, fully expressed who God was which is why he could say 'Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’'------- being the exact representation of God.

It's true that The Word does embody all the qualitative attributes of God such as omnipresence, and omniscience, and omnipotence. That also proves that Jesus is God.

Yes, Jesus is an integral part of eternal life for the believer because if you don't believe in the only begotten Son of God - you ain't got nothing! For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will...... For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.......“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.....Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. [John 5:21,25,26,28]
It seems God is not the only source of eternal life - It seems Jesus has been given all authority in heaven and on earth!!!

Thank you so much for all those verses that further prove that Jesus is God because they ascribe to the Son divine prerogatives that Scripture reserves for Yahweh alone: sovereign life-giving power, self-existent life, and universal judgment. In the Old Testament, only God can give life to the dead and call them forth by His voice (Deut 32:39; 1 Sam 2:6; Ezek 37:4–6), yet Jesus declares that He gives life “to whom he will,” exercising the same absolute will as the Father (John 5:21). Even more striking, Jesus has “life in himself” (John 5:26), a phrase describing aseity—self-existent life—which in Jewish theology belongs to God alone and cannot be shared with a mere creature. Finally, Jesus claims that all the dead will hear his voice and be raised either to life or to judgment (John 5:28–29), identifying himself as the divine Judge whose voice effects resurrection at the last day (cf. Dan 12:2). By placing the Son as the source of life and the final Judge of all humanity—roles exclusive to God—Jesus is unmistakably identifying himself equal in nature and authority with the Father.

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

 

[TomL]

The word "logos" (Word) denotes (I) "the expression of thought" as embodying a conception or idea. λόγος "logos" is something said (including the thought). So the word "logos" means an expression of thought. It makes perfect sense if we use this understanding everywhere the word "logos" is used. So in John 1:1 the Word is not Jesus, but rather it became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan that became flesh with the coming of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:13 (NASB 95) — 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

 

[amazing grace]

Not convincing about this being focused on wealthy people. The psalm simply notes that wealth was not a way of being ransomed either.
Then 1 Peter 1:19 just affirms that only the divine Son could cover the sins.

It seems to easy for the unitarian to gloss over critical details.

Read it anyway you like.

 

[civic]

So you don't think omnipresence is something that only God can possess? How many omnipresent people have you come across in your circles?

It's true that The Word does embody all the qualitative attributes of God such as omnipresence, and omniscience, and omnipotence. That also proves that Jesus is God.

Thank you so much for all those verses that further prove that Jesus is God because they ascribe to the Son divine prerogatives that Scripture reserves for Yahweh alone: sovereign life-giving power, self-existent life, and universal judgment. In the Old Testament, only God can give life to the dead and call them forth by His voice (Deut 32:39; 1 Sam 2:6; Ezek 37:4–6), yet Jesus declares that He gives life “to whom he will,” exercising the same absolute will as the Father (John 5:21). Even more striking, Jesus has “life in himself” (John 5:26), a phrase describing aseity—self-existent life—which in Jewish theology belongs to God alone and cannot be shared with a mere creature. Finally, Jesus claims that all the dead will hear his voice and be raised either to life or to judgment (John 5:28–29), identifying himself as the divine Judge whose voice effects resurrection at the last day (cf. Dan 12:2). By placing the Son as the source of life and the final Judge of all humanity—roles exclusive to God—Jesus is unmistakably identifying himself equal in nature and authority with the Father.

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

yep they make our case for us lol.

 

[TomL]

I can get around the Scripture you mentioned above because they are not facts.

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colossians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

Colossians 1:14–17 (LEB) — 14 in whom we have the redemption, the forgiveness of sins, 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together,

Hebrews 1:8–12 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, your God, has anointed you with the olive oil of joy more than your companions. 10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands; 11 they will perish, but you continue, and they will all become old like a garment, 12 and like a robe you will roll them up, and like a garment they will be changed; but you are the same, and your years will not run out.”

John 1:3–18 (NASB 95) — 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

 

[amazing grace]

Well for starters the Spirit of moses cannot exist with another person on this earth, the same with abraham, david or any other human that has ever existed.

I said nothing about the Moses' spirit, Abraham's spirit nor David's spirit ..... right any other DEAD human being is just that dead. Jesus is the first fruits, the firstborn from the dead.

But as we know the Spirit of Christ lives in and dwells in all believers. This can only be possible if Christ is God.

Yep. Why is that possible only if the Messiah is God?

you ain't got nuttin

next fallacy

hope this helps !!!

Yes, Jesus is an integral part of eternal life for the believer because if you don't believe in the only begotten Son of God - you ain't got nothing!

Oh, but I do got sumthin' ---- I believe in the only begotten Son of God and it ain't God the Son!!

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.--------Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. [John 3:16,36]

-------Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. [John 5:24]

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. [John 6:47]
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.----- I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. [1 John 5:11,13]

Yep, I got sumthin'!!!

 

[Peterlag]

Colossians 1:14–17 (LEB) — 14 in whom we have the redemption, the forgiveness of sins, 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together,

Hebrews 1:8–12 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, your God, has anointed you with the olive oil of joy more than your companions. 10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands; 11 they will perish, but you continue, and they will all become old like a garment, 12 and like a robe you will roll them up, and like a garment they will be changed; but you are the same, and your years will not run out.”

John 1:3–18 (NASB 95) — 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

We have already conversed about these verses. I do not see what you see. Hebrews 1:8 is quoting the Old Testament. I don't understand why you can't understand that.

 

[mikesw]

We have already conversed about these verses. I do not see what you see. Hebrews 1:8 is quoting the Old Testament. I don't understand why you can't understand that.

I'm not sure why Peterlag has a problem with the OT being shared to show the deity of Christ.

 

[amazing grace]

So you don't think omnipresence is something that only God can possess? How many omnipresent people have you come across in your circles?

I believe that AFTER Jesus resurrection and exaltation, that he spiritually dwells in each believer. He was not inherently omnipresent ---- present everywhere at the same time.

It's true that The Word does embody all the qualitative attributes of God such as omnipresence, and omniscience, and omnipotence. That also proves that Jesus is God.

Qualitative - fully expressive of God - Jesus embodied God's qualities and characteristics, love, gentleness, kindness, goodness, etc. Jesus did not share in the inherent attributes that only God possesses - omnipresent, omniscient nor omnipotent. Jesus was not everywhere present in his ministry, he was not all knowing nor was he all powerful.

Thank you so much for all those verses that further prove that Jesus is God because they ascribe to the Son divine prerogatives that Scripture reserves for Yahweh alone: sovereign life-giving power, self-existent life, and universal judgment. In the Old Testament, only God can give life to the dead and call them forth by His voice (Deut 32:39; 1 Sam 2:6; Ezek 37:4–6),

Well, I would say you're welcome but I can't do anything about your reading comprehension. Those verses do not prove that Jesus is God ---- they show God as Jesus' Father granting to his Son to share in his prerogatives.

yet Jesus declares that He gives life “to whom he will,” exercising the same absolute will as the Father (John 5:21). Even more striking, Jesus has “life in himself” (John 5:26), a phrase describing aseity—self-existent life—which in Jewish theology belongs to God alone and cannot be shared with a mere creature. Finally, Jesus claims that all the dead will hear his voice and be raised either to life or to judgment (John 5:28–29), identifying himself as the divine Judge whose voice effects resurrection at the last day (cf. Dan 12:2). By placing the Son as the source of life and the final Judge of all humanity—roles exclusive to God—Jesus is unmistakably identifying himself equal in nature and authority with the Father.

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

Yes, Jesus declares that he gives life 'to whom he will' - and as God his Father has life in himself so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself . . . that is not self-existent life that is referencing eternal life and it's not something Jesus inherently had his Father granted him that prerogative.
And God, his Father gave him authority to execute judgment -- again not something he inherently possessed but authority given to him. And yes, a time is coming, in that day, when all in their graves will hear his voice and come out to be judged with the authority given to him by his Father to execute judgment..... Christ will be executing with the authority God his Father has given to him. ......All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [Matt. 28:28]

Read 'em how you will . . . .

 

[synergy]

I believe that AFTER Jesus resurrection and exaltation, that he spiritually dwells in each believer. He was not inherently omnipresent ---- present everywhere at the same time.

Yes, after his Ascension he is omnipresent within all believers. That proves he is God as only God is omnipresent.

Qualitative - fully expressive of God - Jesus embodied God's qualities and characteristics, love, gentleness, kindness, goodness, etc. Jesus did not share in the inherent attributes that only God possesses - omnipresent, omniscient nor omnipotent. Jesus was not everywhere present in his ministry, he was not all knowing nor was he all powerful.

Quantitative in the full sense of the phrase "the Word was God". No attribute of God (such as omnipresence) is neglected as long as we stick with how John 1:1 was written. Don't deviate from John 1:1, such as replacing "God" with "expression of God", and you will see the Light.

Well, I would say you're welcome but I can't do anything about your reading comprehension. Those verses do not prove that Jesus is God ---- they show God as Jesus' Father granting to his Son to share in his prerogatives.

To share in the Father’s prerogatives and attributes one must already be God, because in biblical theology God’s essential attributes are incommunicable—they cannot be transferred, delegated, or temporarily lent to a creature without destroying the Creator–creature distinction. You're falling into Mormonism when you do that. Scripture is explicit that God does not share His Eternal Power, nor Divine Identity with another being (Isa 42:8; 48:11), and that no created agent can possess self-existence, sovereign authority, or the power of life and death (Deut 32:39). Prerogatives such as aseity (“life in himself”), universal judgment, power over death, and absolute authority over all creation are not functions that can be assigned the way roles are. Therefore, when Scripture states that the Son possesses these same attributes and exercises them in the same manner as the Father (John 5:21–26; Heb 1:3; Col 1:16–17), it is not describing a promoted creature but affirming shared Divine Nature.

If a non-God could truly share God’s attributes, then God would no longer be unique, indivisible, or incomparable—contradicting the very monotheism Scripture defends. Might as well be a Mormon if you wish to continue to think that way. Thus, the only coherent biblical conclusion is that participation in the Father’s prerogatives requires eternal deity, not bestowed status, proving that the Son must already be God in essence to share them.

Yes, Jesus declares that he gives life 'to whom he will' - and as God his Father has life in himself so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself . . . that is not self-existent life that is referencing eternal life and it's not something Jesus inherently had his Father granted him that prerogative.

You need to read everything that John writes, not verses by themselves. As the tabernacled Word, Jesus already has life in himself by nature: “In him was life” (John 1:4). John places this statement before creation itself, showing that life is intrinsic to the tabernacled Word, not something later acquired. This is the Son’s ontological possession of life—he is God and therefore self-existent.

So how do we make sense of John 1:4 and what you highlighted combined? The key to understanding what you highlighted is to keep who the Son is eternally distinct from how the Son is revealed and authorized in history, without separating the two.

When John 5:26 says the Father “granted” the Son to have life in himself, it is not correcting or limiting John 1:4; it is explaining the relation of origin and Jesus' mission as the tabernacled Word on Earth. The Father eternally communicates the divine life to the Son (eternal generation), so the Son’s life is not independent of the Father, yet it is fully the same divine life the Father has. In addition, within salvation history, the incarnate Son is publicly invested with this life-giving authority as the mediator who reveals, dispenses, and manifests that life to the world. Thus, the Son has life in himself by nature as the Word, and he is said to be “granted” life as the Son sent into the world, so that the same self-existent life he eternally possesses is now exercised, disclosed, and recognized in his incarnate mission without implying that he ever lacked it.

And God, his Father gave him authority to execute judgment -- again not something he inherently possessed but authority given to him. And yes, a time is coming, in that day, when all in their graves will hear his voice and come out to be judged with the authority given to him by his Father to execute judgment..... Christ will be executing with the authority God his Father has given to him. ......All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [Matt. 28:28]

Read 'em how you will . . . .

Thank you for mentioning Matthew 28:18. That verse also proves Jesus is God because it assigns to the risen Christ absolute, universal authority that Scripture says belongs to Yahweh alone, while placing him within God’s own identity rather than alongside it. Jesus does not say “some” authority or “authority under God,” but all authority everywhere, meaning nothing in heaven (angels, powers) or on earth (nations, kings, life and death) stands above him. The language of authority “given” does not imply prior lack of deity; it reflects the Son’s incarnate, messianic role and the public vindication of his divine status after resurrection (Phil 2:6–11). This is all confirmed immediately by what follows: Jesus commands baptism into a single Divine Name shared by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matt 28:19), something impossible if the Son were a creature, and he promises his own omnipresent presence with all believers “always, to the end of the age” (v.20), a claim only God can make (Ps 139:7–10).

Thus Matthew 28:18 does not merely describe delegated authority; it reveals Jesus as exercising God’s universal sovereignty, receiving worship, sharing the divine name, and possessing omnipresence, proving that Jesus is God.

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

 

[TomL]

We have already conversed about these verses. I do not see what you see. Hebrews 1:8 is quoting the Old Testament. I don't understand why you can't understand that.

Um you have already ignored what is obviously stated


Colossians 1:14–17 (LEB) — 14 in whom we have the redemption, the forgiveness of sins, 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together,

In Christ we have redemption and the forgiveness of sin. He is over all creation because all weas created by him

Hebrews 1:8–12 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, your God, has anointed you with the olive oil of joy more than your companions. 10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands; 11 they will perish, but you continue, and they will all become old like a garment, 12 and like a robe you will roll them up, and like a garment they will be changed; but you are the same, and your years will not run out.”

Heb 1:8 clearly states it is concerning the son. Concerning the son it is stated he is God and that he laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning and the heavens as well

John 1:1–2 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3–18 (NASB 95) — 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John clearly identified Christ, the Word, as God as well as the creator of all things.

 

[TomL]

I said nothing about the Moses' spirit, Abraham's spirit nor David's spirit ..... right any other DEAD human being is just that dead. Jesus is the first fruits, the firstborn from the dead.

Yep. Why is that possible only if the Messiah is God?


Oh, but I do got sumthin' ---- I believe in the only begotten Son of God and it ain't God the Son!!

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.--------Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. [John 3:16,36]

-------Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. [John 5:24]

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. [John 6:47]
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.----- I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. [1 John 5:11,13]

Yep, I got sumthin'!!!

You have not so much

John 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:18 (NASB 95) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 20:28 (NASB 95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Matthew 1:23 (NASB 95) — 23 “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”

Acts 2:38–39 (NASB 95) — 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

Titus 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

2 Peter 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Colossians 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Isaiah 7:14 (NASB 95) — 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 9:6 (NASB 95) — 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Philippians 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Revelation 1:7–8 (NASB 95) — 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

1 John 5:20 (NASB 95) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Hebrews 1:3 (NASB 95) — 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

John 10:30 (NASB 95) — 30 I and the Father are one.”

 

[Doug Brents]

I can get around the Scripture you mentioned above because they are not facts.

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So you are saying that Col 1:16 is not Scripture? That makes perfect sense. If a passage that every Christ follower for centuries has accounted as Scripture disagrees with (and disproves) your personal belief, then we should absolutely disavow it as Scripture. We should never change our personal belief to align with Scripture. Let's just throw out the Scripture and believe whatever we want.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colossians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

Ahhh, now I see your depravity. "All things" only refers to God's plan, not "all things". "All" only means what you want to think it means. It doesn't really mean everything that was created without exception (as John 1:1-2 says). Does your depravity have no limits?

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

I'm done with you. You are lost and condemned in your thinking and your doctrine. I turn you over to your lord and master, the Devil. May he have mercy on you, because God will not (He will send you to the left with the goats unless you repent).

 

[amazing grace]

Yes, after his Ascension he is omnipresent within all believers. That proves he is God as only God is omnipresent.

No, it doesn't.

Quantitative in the full sense of the phrase "the Word was God". No attribute of God (such as omnipresence) is neglected as long as we stick with how John 1:1 was written. Don't deviate from John 1:1, such as replacing "God" with "expression of God", and you will see the Light.

Yea, don't deviate from John 1:1, such as replacing 'the Word' with 'Son, the second person of the Trinity' nor with 'Jesus' because the word did not become flesh until John 1:14. John 1:1 should correspond with the author's purpose statement @ John 20:31- we are to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, NOT GOD.

Also, when I read John 1:1c, I know that 'God' is a predicate nominative, therefore it is a noun used as in an adjective and so I understand how the word 'God' is being used - I do not replace it. But thanks for your advice.

To share in the Father’s prerogatives and attributes one must already be God, because in biblical theology God’s essential attributes are incommunicable—they cannot be transferred, delegated, or temporarily lent to a creature without destroying the Creator–creature distinction. You're falling into Mormonism when you do that. Scripture is explicit that God does not share His Eternal Power, nor Divine Identity with another being (Isa 42:8; 48:11), and that no created agent can possess self-existence, sovereign authority, or the power of life and death (Deut 32:39). Prerogatives such as aseity (“life in himself”), universal judgment, power over death, and absolute authority over all creation are not functions that can be assigned the way roles are. Therefore, when Scripture states that the Son possesses these same attributes and exercises them in the same manner as the Father (John 5:21–26; Heb 1:3; Col 1:16–17), it is not describing a promoted creature but affirming shared Divine Nature.
If a non-God could truly share God’s attributes, then God would no longer be unique, indivisible, or incomparable—contradicting the very monotheism Scripture defends. Might as well be a Mormon if you wish to continue to think that way. Thus, the only coherent biblical conclusion is that participation in the Father’s prerogatives requires eternal deity, not bestowed status, proving that the Son must already be God in essence to share them.

I am not talking about God's omnis - God's ultimate attributes --- Jesus did have characteristics of his Father ----- goodness, kindness, love, trust, faithfulness, compassion, righteousness, etc. Jesus was certainly NOT 'asei' - Jesus was NOT self derived, self sufficient nor independent. Again, God GRANTED him judgment, the dead will hear his voice and those who hear will live BECAUSE just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He GRANTED the Son also to have life in himself---ETERNAL LIFE - GOD GRANTED these things to his Son......GOD EMPOWERED HIS SON.
You can deny this until the cows come home but scripture cannot be broken.

You need to read everything that John writes, not verses by themselves. As the tabernacled Word, Jesus already has life in himself by nature: “In him was life” (John 1:4). John places this statement before creation itself, showing that life is intrinsic to the tabernacled Word, not something later acquired. This is the Son’s ontological possession of life—he is God and therefore self-existent.
So how do we make sense of John 1:4 and what you highlighted combined? The key to understanding what you highlighted is to keep who the Son is eternally distinct from how the Son is revealed and authorized in history, without separating the two.

In "him".....a personification of God's word just as God's wisdom is personified in Proverbs as a 'she'.
In the beginning God spoke life into being = in the word was life. The record in John 1:4 is before the word became flesh and dwelt among us - be careful that you do not read 'Son', 'the second person is the Trinity', or 'Jesus' into scripture before the word became flesh.

Jesus is self existent??? WHY is this recorded in Matthew: The book of the genealogy (the source, origin, genesis) of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.------But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
AND Luke: And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
Self-existent means existing independently of other beings or causes???? --- Jesus is not God.

When John 5:26 says the Father “granted” the Son to have life in himself, it is not correcting or limiting John 1:4; it is explaining the relation of origin and Jesus' mission as the tabernacled Word on Earth. The Father eternally communicates the divine life to the Son (eternal generation), so the Son’s life is not independent of the Father, yet it is fully the same divine life the Father has. In addition, within salvation history, the incarnate Son is publicly invested with this life-giving authority as the mediator who reveals, dispenses, and manifests that life to the world. Thus, the Son has life in himself by nature as the Word, and he is said to be “granted” life as the Son sent into the world, so that the same self-existent life he eternally possesses is now exercised, disclosed, and recognized in his incarnate mission without implying that he ever lacked it.

John 1:4 is speaking of creation in the beginning and it is referencing God's word, God's spoken creative speech through which all things were made and without which nothing was made that was made........And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens.” God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so......[Gen. 1:20,21,24]
The birth and death of the Son, of God's Son, of the Christ negates an 'eternal generation'.
The Son's life was totally dependent upon God, his Father. God, his Father granted to him to give eternal life.

Thank you for mentioning Matthew 28:18. That verse also proves Jesus is God because it assigns to the risen Christ absolute, universal authority that Scripture says belongs to Yahweh alone, while placing him within God’s own identity rather than alongside it. Jesus does not say “some” authority or “authority under God,” but all authority everywhere, meaning nothing in heaven (angels, powers) or on earth (nations, kings, life and death) stands above him. The language of authority “given” does not imply prior lack of deity; it reflects the Son’s incarnate, messianic role and the public vindication of his divine status after resurrection (Phil 2:6–11). This is all confirmed immediately by what follows: Jesus commands baptism into a single Divine Name shared by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matt 28:19), something impossible if the Son were a creature, and he promises his own omnipresent presence with all believers “always, to the end of the age” (v.20), a claim only God can make (Ps 139:7–10).

Thus Matthew 28:18 does not merely describe delegated authority; it reveals Jesus as exercising God’s universal sovereignty, receiving worship, sharing the divine name, and possessing omnipresence, proving that Jesus is God.

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

The risen Christ was GIVEN all authority in heaven and on earth from God, his Father.
Scripture shows Jesus was a created mortal human being - created and conceived in the womb of Mary. Jesus was mortal and capable of death - he was buried in the heart of the earth and was there three days and three nights, showing Jesus was not immortal. God raised him from the dead giving him his spiritual resurrected body and Jesus became a life-giving spirit --- he wasn't one before this . . . it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural.

Your welcome - it's my pleasure to give you fodder!

 

[civic]

So you are saying that Col 1:16 is not Scripture? That makes perfect sense. If a passage that every Christ follower for centuries has accounted as Scripture disagrees with (and disproves) your personal belief, then we should absolutely disavow it as Scripture. We should never change our personal belief to align with Scripture. Let's just throw out the Scripture and believe whatever we want.

Ahhh, now I see your depravity. "All things" only refers to God's plan, not "all things". "All" only means what you want to think it means. It doesn't really mean everything that was created without exception (as John 1:1-2 says). Does your depravity have no limits?

I'm done with you. You are lost and condemned in your thinking and your doctrine. I turn you over to your lord and master, the Devil. May he have mercy on you, because God will not (He will send you to the left with the goats unless you repent).

amazing how biblical words and phrases will get twisted into the theological pretzel to support ones own beliefs.

all things for example does not mean everything created. its mind boggling the extent some will go to deny Christ.

No exceptions meaning everything created​

Was done by Him and for Him. This includes the angels which Christ created and whom also worship Him now in heaven(see Rev 5).

Col 1:16-17
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

We see above that creation of all things(panta- no exceptions and is all inclusive) were made by Him and solely for Him. They were created for His good pleasure. And without Him nothing was made that was made(see John 1:1-3).

Also since we see He is before all things created then logic and reason dictates that He is Eternal and not part of any creation. He is distinct and separate from created as the Creator.

Here we see that Paul completely exhausts the creation categories:

1)all things created
2)things in heaven
3)things in the earth
4) things visible
5)things invisible
6)thrones,dominions,rulers,authorities
7)the above mentioned things rule out any exceptions

Now we also see from the Apostle Paul that He(Christ) is BEFORE all things and that all things in Him subsist or are held together.

Now tell me Who other than the Almighty God known as YHWH is before all things, created all things and holds the very universe together?

The answer none but God. And Paul tells us in the context that Jesus is the very image of the invisible God. He made the unknown known, the invisible God became visible in the flesh. This is the Incarnation where we see in Christ God was manifest in the flesh. God became man as John's prologue so eloquently spells out in verses 1-18.

So can you like the Author of Hebrews, Paul, Thomas, Peter and John confess Jesus is your God, your Creator?

Angels were created as per Colossians 1:16-17 below who are the created angels , the principalities and powers with rank and order below. And we know only God created them and has the power over them. And Christ is God, their Creator who rules over them.

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Ephesians 1:20-21
which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The angels are His to command.

Matt 13:41
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

Matt 24:30-31
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Matt 25:31-33
31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

2 Thess 1:7
when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,

1 Tim 5:21
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

Heb 1:6
He says,
"AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."


Rev 5:11-12
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."


The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Who has the power over demons ?

Only God has the power and authority over the demons,spirits and angels. It is clear the demons recognized Jesus identity as God in the flesh.

Luke 9:1
And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons and to heal diseases.

Matt 8:29
What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

Mark 5:7
"What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!"

Luke 10:17-18
The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." 18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

Satan was once a good angel. He rebelled against God and left heaven along with the other evil angels. Some say he was hurled from heaven.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

hope this helps !!!

 

[Peterlag]

So you are saying that Col 1:16 is not Scripture? That makes perfect sense. If a passage that every Christ follower for centuries has accounted as Scripture disagrees with (and disproves) your personal belief, then we should absolutely disavow it as Scripture. We should never change our personal belief to align with Scripture. Let's just throw out the Scripture and believe whatever we want.

Ahhh, now I see your depravity. "All things" only refers to God's plan, not "all things". "All" only means what you want to think it means. It doesn't really mean everything that was created without exception (as John 1:1-2 says). Does your depravity have no limits?

I'm done with you. You are lost and condemned in your thinking and your doctrine. I turn you over to your lord and master, the Devil. May he have mercy on you, because God will not (He will send you to the left with the goats unless you repent).

Where did I say Colossians 1:16 is not Scripture? Show me.

 

[Peterlag]

Um you have already ignored what is obviously stated


Colossians 1:14–17 (LEB) — 14 in whom we have the redemption, the forgiveness of sins, 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together,

In Christ we have redemption and the forgiveness of sin. He is over all creation because all weas created by him

Hebrews 1:8–12 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, your God, has anointed you with the olive oil of joy more than your companions. 10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands; 11 they will perish, but you continue, and they will all become old like a garment, 12 and like a robe you will roll them up, and like a garment they will be changed; but you are the same, and your years will not run out.”

Heb 1:8 clearly states it is concerning the son. Concerning the son it is stated he is God and that he laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning and the heavens as well

John 1:1–2 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3–18 (NASB 95) — 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John clearly identified Christ, the Word, as God as well as the creator of all things.

This is not ignoring. I comment and I do so often. If you don't like what I say, then you say I did not comment. Here I will comment again on Colossians...

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colossians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.