Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Doug Brents]

I would like one verse that actually calls Jesus God the Son.

One verse that actually says Jesus is a god-man.

Jesus is the Son of God (John 3:16), and Jesus is God (John 1:1). Thus Jesus is God the Son.

One verse that actually says we must believe Jesus is God.

John 8:24 - Unless you believe that Jesus is the I AM (God), you will die in your sins.

One verse that actually says we must believe God is three persons.

There is no single verse.
But the Spirit of God is God and is personified as an individual being (John 14:26).
And the Son is God, and is personified (in the flesh) in the form of the man Jesus (John 1:14).

One verse out of approximately 31,102 Bible verses that says God is Triune.

The Spirit is God, the Father is God, and Jesus is God. That makes three, from which we get triune.

One verse that actually says Jesus is both 100 percent God and 100 percent man.

Phil 2:6-8 - Jesus is God, and He emptied Himself to become a servant in the form of a man
Heb 1:8-9 - The Son is God, and His God (the Father) has anointed Him.

One verse that actually says Jesus is God because if it's that important of a doctrine it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere.

There are so many.

If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it?

It is hidden from the blind and the hard hearted.

Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible?

For the same reason that Jesus taught everything in parables; to hide the truth from those who refuse to see.

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus is the Son of God (John 3:16), and Jesus is God (John 1:1). Thus Jesus is God the Son.

John 8:24 - Unless you believe that Jesus is the I AM (God), you will die in your sins.

There is no single verse.
But the Spirit of God is God and is personified as an individual being (John 14:26).
And the Son is God, and is personified (in the flesh) in the form of the man Jesus (John 1:14).

The Spirit is God, the Father is God, and Jesus is God. That makes three, from which we get triune.

Phil 2:6-8 - Jesus is God, and He emptied Himself to become a servant in the form of a man
Heb 1:8-9 - The Son is God, and His God (the Father) has anointed Him.

There are so many.

It is hidden from the blind and the hard hearted.

For the same reason that Jesus taught everything in parables; to hide the truth from those who refuse to see.

The follow verse just floors me that Trinitarians do not seem to be able to read correctly. Here's my proof...

The verse says that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he,

It does not say that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am God,

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[Doug Brents]

John 8:24 - "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

The words in Greek are the same that are used in John 8:58 and in the Septuagint in Exo 3:14: "ego eimi", I AM. We have already discussed this phrase. The addition of "he" in the translation you are using is not accurate. The proper translation is, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

 

[amazing grace]

John 8:24 - "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

The words in Greek are the same that are used in John 8:58 and in the Septuagint in Exo 3:14: "ego eimi", I AM. We have already discussed this phrase. The addition of "he" in the translation you are using is not accurate. The proper translation is, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

Well, apparently the Jews that were actually there did not understand Jesus saying ego eimi to mean he was God:
So they said to him, “Who are you?”
Matt. 14:27....But immediately, Jesus spoke to them, saying Take heart; it is I. (ego eimi) Do not be afraid.....
And who did they identify him as - God? NOPE
And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly, you are the Son of God."
Who is Jesus identifying as? the Son of God.

And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am [he]!’ (ego eimi) and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them. [Luke 21:8]
Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am [he]!’ (ego eimi) and they will lead many astray. [Mark 13:6]
For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am (ego eimi) the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. [Matt. 24:5]
Who is Jesus identifying as? the Messiah

Mark 14:61,62 But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” And Jesus said, “I am, (ego eimi) and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Who is Jesus identifying as? the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed AND the Son of Man

John 4:25,26 The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you, am [he] (ego eimi).
Who is Jesus identifying as? the Messiah

The record of the blind man: John 9:8-10 The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar were saying, “Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?” Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am (ego eimi) [the man.]” So they said to him, “Then how were your eyes opened?”
Who is the blind man identifying as? --- the one who was healed.

Peter - Acts 10:19-21 And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.” And Peter went down to the men and said, “I am (ego eimi) the one you are looking for. What is the reason for your coming?”
Who is Peter identifying as? ---- the one they were looking for.

'I am' - ego eimi is not a NAME. . . . . Yahweh is the God of Israel's name.
ego eimi - I am - is just a response of self identification, declaration.

 

[Doug Brents]

Well, apparently the Jews that were actually there did not understand Jesus saying ego eimi to mean he was God:
So they said to him, “Who are you?”
Matt. 14:27....But immediately, Jesus spoke to them, saying Take heart; it is I. (ego eimi) Do not be afraid.....
And who did they identify him as - God? NOPE
And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly, you are the Son of God."
Who is Jesus identifying as? the Son of God.

First off, we are discussing John 8, not Matt 14. The two passages depict different events in the life of Jesus.
Secondly, the Son of God is God. To properly understand what "son of man" and "son of God" means you must understand what it meant to be a "son".

The term "son" was not applied to children before they became an adult (around 13). Before this, they were considered no more than the servants or household goods. But when a boy reached 13, he was no longer considered a child, but a man equal with (but still subservient to) his father in the running of the household. This is what Jesus did when He went to the Temple at age 13. He ceased go be a child, and went to the Temple where He discussed the Word of God with the priests.

Son of God means that Jesus is fully equal with (although still subservient to) the Father.
Son of man means that Jesus is fully equal with humanity.
He is both at the same time.

And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am [he]!’ (ego eimi) and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them. [Luke 21:8]
Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am [he]!’ (ego eimi) and they will lead many astray. [Mark 13:6]
For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am (ego eimi) the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. [Matt. 24:5]
Who is Jesus identifying as? the Messiah

Mark 14:61,62 But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” And Jesus said, “I am, (ego eimi) and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Who is Jesus identifying as? the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed AND the Son of Man

The Messiah is God. He has to be God, because only the infinite can cover the sins of all of mankind. A finite man living a perfect life would not have the ability to cover the sins of any more than a single other soul.

John 4:25,26 The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you, am [he] (ego eimi).
Who is Jesus identifying as? the Messiah

The record of the blind man: John 9:8-10 The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar were saying, “Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?” Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am (ego eimi) [the man.]” So they said to him, “Then how were your eyes opened?”
Who is the blind man identifying as? --- the one who was healed.

Peter - Acts 10:19-21 And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.” And Peter went down to the men and said, “I am (ego eimi) the one you are looking for. What is the reason for your coming?”
Who is Peter identifying as? ---- the one they were looking for.

These usages of the phrase have an implied "he" with them. They are not statements of deity, for both you and I could uses this phrase in this way. However, we could not use it as Jesus did in John 8, because we do not exist just because we exist. We are not self sustaining as God (and Jesus) is.

'I am' - ego eimi is not a NAME. . . . . Yahweh is the God of Israel's name.
ego eimi - I am - is just a response of self identification, declaration.

"I AM" is indeed a name that God calls Himself. In Exo 3:14, God told Moses to tell the Israelites that "I AM sent me." And that is exactly what Jesus told the Pharisees in the Temple, "Before Abraham was, I AM!"

 

[civic]

First off, we are discussing John 8, not Matt 14. The two passages depict different events in the life of Jesus.
Secondly, the Son of God is God. To properly understand what "son of man" and "son of God" means you must understand what it meant to be a "son".

The term "son" was not applied to children before they became an adult (around 13). Before this, they were considered no more than the servants or household goods. But when a boy reached 13, he was no longer considered a child, but a man equal with (but still subservient to) his father in the running of the household. This is what Jesus did when He went to the Temple at age 13. He ceased go be a child, and went to the Temple where He discussed the Word of God with the priests.

Son of God means that Jesus is fully equal with (although still subservient to) the Father.
Son of man means that Jesus is fully equal with humanity.
He is both at the same time.

The Messiah is God. He has to be God, because only the infinite can cover the sins of all of mankind. A finite man living a perfect life would not have the ability to cover the sins of any more than a single other soul.

These usages of the phrase have an implied "he" with them. They are not statements of deity, for both you and I could uses this phrase in this way. However, we could not use it as Jesus did in John 8, because we do not exist just because we exist. We are not self sustaining as God (and Jesus) is.

"I AM" is indeed a name that God calls Himself. In Exo 3:14, God told Moses to tell the Israelites that "I AM sent me." And that is exactly what Jesus told the Pharisees in the Temple, "Before Abraham was, I AM!"

Yes they like to run to and to here a little there a little all over the place rather than stick to the scripture in its context

 

[Peterlag]

Well, apparently the Jews that were actually there did not understand Jesus saying ego eimi to mean he was God:
So they said to him, “Who are you?”
Matt. 14:27....But immediately, Jesus spoke to them, saying Take heart; it is I. (ego eimi) Do not be afraid.....
And who did they identify him as - God? NOPE
And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly, you are the Son of God."
Who is Jesus identifying as? the Son of God.

And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am [he]!’ (ego eimi) and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them. [Luke 21:8]
Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am [he]!’ (ego eimi) and they will lead many astray. [Mark 13:6]
For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am (ego eimi) the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. [Matt. 24:5]
Who is Jesus identifying as? the Messiah

Mark 14:61,62 But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” And Jesus said, “I am, (ego eimi) and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Who is Jesus identifying as? the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed AND the Son of Man

John 4:25,26 The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you, am [he] (ego eimi).
Who is Jesus identifying as? the Messiah

The record of the blind man: John 9:8-10 The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar were saying, “Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?” Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am (ego eimi) [the man.]” So they said to him, “Then how were your eyes opened?”
Who is the blind man identifying as? --- the one who was healed.

Peter - Acts 10:19-21 And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.” And Peter went down to the men and said, “I am (ego eimi) the one you are looking for. What is the reason for your coming?”
Who is Peter identifying as? ---- the one they were looking for.

'I am' - ego eimi is not a NAME. . . . . Yahweh is the God of Israel's name.
ego eimi - I am - is just a response of self identification, declaration.

Nice Post.

 

[amazing grace]

First off, we are discussing John 8, not Matt 14. The two passages depict different events in the life of Jesus.
Secondly, the Son of God is God. To properly understand what "son of man" and "son of God" means you must understand what it meant to be a "son".

Well, if ego eimi means God in any verse then ego eimi should carry the same meaning throughout.
Nope, the Son of God is NOT God. The Son of God is the Son.
I have children - I am their parent - I am not my children . . . God is known in scripture as the Father, Jesus is his Son - that is a Father - Son, parent - child relationship.

The term "son" was not applied to children before they became an adult (around 13). Before this, they were considered no more than the servants or household goods. But when a boy reached 13, he was no longer considered a child, but a man equal with (but still subservient to) his father in the running of the household. This is what Jesus did when He went to the Temple at age 13. He ceased go be a child, and went to the Temple where He discussed the Word of God with the priests.

Son of God means that Jesus is fully equal with (although still subservient to) the Father.
Son of man means that Jesus is fully equal with humanity.
He is both at the same time.

Jesus was 12 when he went to the Temple which has nothing to do with the ego eimi statements.
Jesus bears the title Son of God and Son of Man ---- in neither capacity is he equal to his Father. A son is not equal to his Father.
Jesus is not a hybrid - 100%God 100%man. Jesus is a man, 100% mortal human being.
Correct, Jesus is fully equal with humanity; so if he is God in any manner - he is no longer equal with humanity, his brothers and sisters.

The Messiah is God. He has to be God, because only the infinite can cover the sins of all of mankind. A finite man living a perfect life would not have the ability to cover the sins of any more than a single other soul.

NO - the Messiah, is the Lord's Christ, the anointed one of God......Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. (Luke 2:25,26)
Not what Paul says: But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many......For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ......For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:15,17,19)

These usages of the phrase have an implied "he" with them. They are not statements of deity, for both you and I could uses this phrase in this way. However, we could not use it as Jesus did in John 8, because we do not exist just because we exist. We are not self sustaining as God (and Jesus) is.

"I AM" is indeed a name that God calls Himself. In Exo 3:14, God told Moses to tell the Israelites that "I AM sent me." And that is exactly what Jesus told the Pharisees in the Temple, "Before Abraham was, I AM!"

Yes, I put any implied word in parenthesis holding true to what is written.
Correct, they are not statements of deity we all use this same phrase in identifying ourselves. I AM - is not a declaration of being Yahweh . . . it is a self declaration. And yes, even in John 8 it is used in that manner or else the Jews would not have asked him - WHO ARE YOU? They would have understood it as a 'statement of deity'.
In Exodus 3:14 Footnote: Or I am what I am, or I will be what I will be.
Is that God's name? or does God let us know his name in the next verse?
God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. yᵊhōvâ - Jehovah, YHWH (יהוה‎; often vocalized with vowels as "Yahweh" or "Jehovah") as the personal name of God; "the existing One" ---- the proper name of the one true God
Jesus is not the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac or the God of Jacob. . . .

 

[amazing grace]

Nice Post.

Thank you - it was paraphrased from a video of Dustin Smith, Youtube - @unitarianpodcast #395 "I Am He": The Self-Designation of God, Christ, and Several Other Human Beings. Of course, the video is deeper, I just brought in some of the verses he used - Just want to give credit where credit is due.

[Dustin R. Smith is a New Testament scholar at Spartanburg Methodist College (Spartanburg, South Carolina). He is the author of Wisdom Christology in the Gospel of John (2024), coauthor of The Son of God: Three Views of the Identity of Jesus (2015), co-editor of the AI Critical New Testament (2023), and the host of The Biblical Unitarian Podcast.]

 

[Doug Brents]

Well, if ego eimi means God in any verse then ego eimi should carry the same meaning throughout.

And I suppose then that everywhere that "light" is used in Scripture it always means illumination? So then when Jesus said that His burden is "light", He didn't mean that it was easy, but that it is an illumination? Oh my aching toe!

Nope, the Son of God is NOT God. The Son of God is the Son.
I have children - I am their parent - I am not my children . . . God is known in scripture as the Father, Jesus is his Son - that is a Father - Son, parent - child relationship.

Jesus is not the child of the Father. Jesus is not created (John 1:3), for He cannot create Himself.

Jesus was 12 when he went to the Temple which has nothing to do with the ego eimi statements.
Jesus bears the title Son of God and Son of Man ---- in neither capacity is he equal to his Father. A son is not equal to his Father.
Jesus is not a hybrid - 100%God 100%man. Jesus is a man, 100% mortal human being.
Correct, Jesus is fully equal with humanity; so if he is God in any manner - he is no longer equal with humanity, his brothers and sisters.

NO - the Messiah, is the Lord's Christ, the anointed one of God......Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. (Luke 2:25,26)
Not what Paul says: But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many......For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ......For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:15,17,19)

Jesus is both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:6). He is God in the flesh (John 1:1, 14). You overlook the verses I cited which explicitly state that Jesus is God in favor of your eisegesis of passages that do not state that He is not God.

I am glad that you admit the humanity of Jesus. That is half the battle. But you must also accept the deity of Jesus, for He is the God that you claim to worship.

Yes, I put any implied word in parenthesis holding true to what is written.
Correct, they are not statements of deity we all use this same phrase in identifying ourselves. I AM - is not a declaration of being Yahweh . . . it is a self declaration. And yes, even in John 8 it is used in that manner or else the Jews would not have asked him - WHO ARE YOU? They would have understood it as a 'statement of deity'.

They did understand it as a statement of deity. That is why they took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy.

In Exodus 3:14 Footnote: Or I am what I am, or I will be what I will be.
Is that God's name? or does God let us know his name in the next verse?
God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. yᵊhōvâ - Jehovah, YHWH (יהוה‎; often vocalized with vowels as "Yahweh" or "Jehovah") as the personal name of God; "the existing One" ---- the proper name of the one true God
Jesus is not the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac or the God of Jacob. . . .

No, God does not give another name in the next verse.
Exo 3:14-15
"And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “This is what you shall say to the sons of Israel: 'I AM has sent me to you. God furthermore said to Moses, This is what you shall say to the sons of Israel: ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is the name for all generations to use to call upon Me."

"This" in verse 15 refers back to "I AM", which is the name God told Moses to use when telling the Israelites who sent him. YHWH, Jehovah, Yahweh - these all mean LORD. They are not names, but titles for God. "I AM" is the name He said to use for Him in all generations.

 

[amazing grace]

And I suppose then that everywhere that "light" is used in Scripture it always means illumination? So then when Jesus said that His burden is "light", He didn't mean that it was easy, but that it is an illumination? Oh my aching toe!

Light as in illumination and light as in not heavy - yes, some words that are the same carry two different meanings.
I don't believe the same can be said about 'ego eimi'. If you know of some place where ego eimi carries a different meaning than I am ..... just show me.
This is what God says from the Greek Septuagint . . . "ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν (ego eimi ho on)," meaning "I am one Being" or "I am He who is". When Jesus says 'ego eimi' he does not say 'ego eimi ho on' so he isn't even quoting Exodus 3:14.

Jesus is not the child of the Father. Jesus is not created (John 1:3), for He cannot create Himself.

Jesus is not the child of the Father???????
Isn't God his Father? Isn't he called the SON? Didn't Mary have a child? Of course Jesus cannot create himself but God, his Father can create in the womb of Mary ...... And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

Jesus is both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:6). He is God in the flesh (John 1:1, 14). You overlook the verses I cited which explicitly state that Jesus is God in favor of your eisegesis of passages that do not state that He is not God.

I know that you believe those verses say Jesus is God but they do not. It is your eisegesis of passages that understand it in that manner. Yes, Jesus is both Lord and Christ - God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.
The Word became flesh. I haven't overlooked any verses that you have cited. I only started conversing with you at post #4103 in regard to John 8:24. I see where previously you posted verses with @Peterlag - he did not overlook them but handled them quite nicely.

I am glad that you admit the humanity of Jesus. That is half the battle. But you must also accept the deity of Jesus, for He is the God that you claim to worship.

Scripture clearly states that Jesus is a man so no problem!
No, I do not have to accept the deity of Jesus because he is NOT God.
I give honor and worship to both.

They did understand it as a statement of deity. That is why they took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy.

John 8:24 which was the verse which I was responding to in Post #4103 -

John 8:24 - "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

The words in Greek are the same that are used in John 8:58 and in the Septuagint in Exo 3:14: "ego eimi", I AM. We have already discussed this phrase. The addition of "he" in the translation you are using is not accurate. The proper translation is, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

Immediately after saying 'Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins - they said WHO ARE YOU? So they did not relate the 'believe that I am' to Exodus 3:14 which even reads differently "ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν (ego eimi ho on).

No, God does not give another name in the next verse.
Exo 3:14-15
"And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “This is what you shall say to the sons of Israel: 'I AM has sent me to you. God furthermore said to Moses, This is what you shall say to the sons of Israel: ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is the name for all generations to use to call upon Me."

"This" in verse 15 refers back to "I AM", which is the name God told Moses to use when telling the Israelites who sent him. YHWH, Jehovah, Yahweh - these all mean LORD. They are not names, but titles for God. "I AM" is the name He said to use for Him in all generations.

So verse 15 doesn't add to v14: God furthermore said to Moses, This is what you shall say to the sons of Israel: The LORD, (YHWH, Jehovah) the God of your fathers . . . . . THIS IS MY NAME FOREVER......THE NAME FOR ALL GENERATIONS TO USE TO CALL UPON ME.
I don't know about you but when I am talking to God, aka Yahweh, my heavenly Father, I never address him as 'I AM' and as far as I can see neither did anyone else address him as 'I AM'.
I believe the 'I AM' the 'ego eimi ho on' is WHO God is but not his name....."I am one Being" or "I am He who is".
I would say that Yahweh/Jehovah is his own personal name.

 

[FreeInChrist]

This Is Not Nuts To You?​

Yes, you are.

I would like one verse that actually calls Jesus God the Son.

Not true. If one were found somehow in a lost bible you would not believe it because you do not want to believe for what ever
possible reason that is.

The closest that you consistently deny ...is Hebrews 1: 8-12

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Hebrews 1:8–12 is the strongest passage in Scripture for identifying the Son with divine status, because God the Father directly addresses the Son as “God” and applies to Him language originally spoken of YHWH.

Hebrews 1:8–12 is the closest Scripture comes to calling Jesus “God the Son,” though the exact phrase does not appear. In this passage, God the Father explicitly speaks to the Son and addresses Him as “O God,” then distinguishes Himself as “your God.” The author of Hebrews further applies to the Son a passage from Psalm 102 originally spoken of YHWH as Creator. Whether one concludes this establishes ontological deity, my leanings, or exalted divine status, it is clear the text intentionally elevates the Son beyond any created being. The doctrine of “God the Son,” however, remains a theological formulation rather than a biblical title.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The follow verse just floors me that Trinitarians do not seem to be able to read correctly. Here's my proof...

The verse says that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he,

It does not say that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am God,

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Who would he be?

 

[Doug Brents]

Light as in illumination and light as in not heavy - yes, some words that are the same carry two different meanings.
I don't believe the same can be said about 'ego eimi'. If you know of some place where ego eimi carries a different meaning than I am ..... just show me.

"I AM", grammatically and in human terms, must ALWAYS be followed by a modifier. WHAT are you? WHO are you? etc. But in relation to God, He IS because He IS. He exists. He needs no modifier, nor does an appropriate one exist for Him. He simply IS.
So where "ego eimi" or "eimi ego" is found in Scripture with a modifier (either stated or implied), it refers to a man. But when it is used without modifier, it refers to God. God said, "I AM because I AM.... I AM has sent you." And Jesus said, "Before Abraham was (past tense), I AM (present tense, with no modifier).

This is what God says from the Greek Septuagint . . . "ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν (ego eimi ho on)," meaning "I am one Being" or "I am He who is". When Jesus says 'ego eimi' he does not say 'ego eimi ho on' so he isn't even quoting Exodus 3:14.

He is quoting the second part of the verse where God said, "I AM has sent you."

Jesus is not the child of the Father???????
Isn't God his Father? Isn't he called the SON? Didn't Mary have a child? Of course Jesus cannot create himself but God, his Father can create in the womb of Mary ...... And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

Not in terms of heredity, no, Jesus is not the child of God. He is the equal of God.
Everything that was created, the visible and the invisible, EVERYTHING without exception, was created by and through Jesus (John 1:3,14). The thing created cannot create itself. So Jesus cannot be a created being.

Jesus came from the Father to be born of Mary, but that has no relevance to Jesus being the Son of God; that made Him the Son of man. He was the Son of God from before the beginning.

I know that you believe those verses say Jesus is God but they do not. It is your eisegesis of passages that understand it in that manner. Yes, Jesus is both Lord and Christ - God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.
The Word became flesh. I haven't overlooked any verses that you have cited. I only started conversing with you at post #4103 in regard to John 8:24. I see where previously you posted verses with @Peterlag - he did not overlook them but handled them quite nicely.

My discussion with Pete are over. He cannot handle the truth, and if you think He handled the passages we discussed "nicely", then you have no proper understanding of Scripture either.

Scripture clearly states that Jesus is a man so no problem!
No, I do not have to accept the deity of Jesus because he is NOT God.
I give honor and worship to both.

If Jesus is not God, and you worship Him, then you are an idolater and condemn yourself.
God is a jealous God, and will broke NO worship of anything other than Himself.
So either Jesus is God and you need to start calling Him God, or you need to stop worshiping Him. You can't have it both ways.

John 8:24 which was the verse which I was responding to in Post #4103 -

Immediately after saying 'Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins - they said WHO ARE YOU? So they did not relate the 'believe that I am' to Exodus 3:14 which even reads differently "ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν (ego eimi ho on).

You keep stopping with the first half of Exo 3:14, and not finishing the verse.
"And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “This is what you shall say to the sons of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"
"'I AM' has sent me." "ego eimi" has sent me. And Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM". "ego eimi".

So verse 15 doesn't add to v14: God furthermore said to Moses, This is what you shall say to the sons of Israel: The LORD, (YHWH, Jehovah) the God of your fathers . . . . . THIS IS MY NAME FOREVER......THE NAME FOR ALL GENERATIONS TO USE TO CALL UPON ME.
I don't know about you but when I am talking to God, aka Yahweh, my heavenly Father, I never address him as 'I AM' and as far as I can see neither did anyone else address him as 'I AM'.
I believe the 'I AM' the 'ego eimi ho on' is WHO God is but not his name....."I am one Being" or "I am He who is".
I would say that Yahweh/Jehovah is his own personal name.

What does Jehovah mean? It means LORD. It is not a name; it is a title. The closest we have in Scripture for a name for God is "I AM". He says, He exists because He exists. And Jesus said that before Abraham was (past tense (meaning Abraham came into being and then ceased to be)) Jesus exists (meaning He existed before Abraham, He existed during Abraham, He still existed when He talked to the Pharisees, and He still exists today. He is eternal.).

What is the name that Jesus told Moses to call Him? He said, "This is what you shall say to the sons of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’" Who sent you? "I AM sent me." What is the name of the person who sent you? "I AM sent me."

God didn't tell Moses to say Jehovah sent me. He didn't tell Him to say the Lord sent me. He told him to say "I AM sent me."

 

[amazing grace]

accidental post

 

[TomL]

Try again? Okay...

View attachment 2665

Too Bad as scripture is heavily against that

John 1:3
KJVAll things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
ESVAll things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
NASB95All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
LEBAll things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.
YLTall things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
DARBYAll things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being.
ASVAll things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
AMPAll things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.
BBEAll things came into existence through him, and without him nothing was.
CTNT
CSBAll things were created through him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.
CEBEverything came into being through the Word, and without the Word nothing came into being. What came into being
CJBAll things came to be through him, and without him nothing made had being.
CEVAnd with this Word, God created all things. Nothing was made without the Word. Everything that was created
D-RAll things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.
EOB: NTAll things came into being through him, and without him, nothing came into being that has come into being.
GWEverything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.
GNBThrough him God made all things; not one thing in all creation was made without him.
HCSBAll things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.
HBCONTCVAll things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
HB:ERVEverything was made through him, and nothing was made without him.
EHVThrough him everything was made, and without him not one thing was made that has been made.
ISVThrough him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.
KJV 1900All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
KJV (WS)All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
MNTall things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made.
MSGEverything was created through him; nothing—not one thing!— came into being without him.
MEVAll things were created through Him, and without Him nothing was created that was created.
MLB:BVThrough Him everything came into being and without Him nothing that exists came into being.
MNTthrough him all existence came into being, no existence came into being apart from him.
NETAll things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.
NABREAll things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be
NASBAll things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
NCVAll things were made by him, and nothing was made without him.
NEBand through him all things came to be; no single thing was created without him. All that came to be
NIrVAll things were made through him. Nothing that has been made was made without him.
NIV84Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
NIVThrough him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
NJBThrough him all things came into being, not one thing came into being except through him.
NKJVAll things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
NLTGod created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.
NRSVAll things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being
Phillips [1–5]At the beginning God expressed himself. That personal expression, that word, was with God, and was God, and he existed with God from the beginning. All creation took place through him, and none took place without him. In him appeared life and this life was the light of mankind. The light still shines in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out.
NTMS:ITEETRGTAll things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing that exists came into being.
NT:TOGAll things were made by him, and without him not one thing was made that now exists.
TPTAnd through his creative inspiration this Living Expression made all things, for nothing has existence apart from him!
REBand through him all things came to be; without him no created thing came into being.
RSVall things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
SCNTEAll things became through him, and without him did not anything become: that which became
SNTTEPEvery thing was by his hand; and without him, was not any thing whatever that existed.
TNIVThrough him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
And the word is clearly a he
Rev 19:13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
and even your translations show as much
.
John 1:10 (1599 Geneva Bible) — 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him: and the world knew him not.

John 1:10 (Tyndale 1536) — 10 He was in the worlde/and the worlde was made by him; and yet the worlde knewe him not.

Revelation 19:13 (1599 Geneva Bible) — 13 And he was clothed with a garment dipped in blood, and his name is called, THE WORD OF GOD.

Tyndale 1536 And he was clothed with a vesture dypte in bloude/and his name is called the worde of God.

You have been clearly refuted

 

[TomL]

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colossians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

Rather it seems difficult for you to allow scripture to form your doctrine

Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Colossians 1:17–18 (NASB 95) — 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

He has first place in everything and is the firstborn of all creation

All things are created through him

And even all authorities and rulers would point to him preexisting the incarnation as a He contradicting your other grasped falsehood concerning John 1:1

BTW Redemption is not even mentioned

Many correctly point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe

BTW would you deny God as creator if the statement appears in other than Genesis?

It would be a rather absurd argument.

I guess that is why you do not address it.