Thomas... My Lord and my God

[civic]

I make God out to be lying in many passages where He says the above........
Does not scripture use the word yāšaʿ - (Hiphil) 1. to save, deliver; 2. to save from moral troubles; 3. to give victory to --- for the word SAVIOR --- the same Hebrew word used in Isaiah 43:11 ..... I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior (yāšaʿ).

It's also used here: Therefore you gave them into the hand of their enemies, who made them suffer. And in the time of their suffering they cried out to you and you heard them from heaven, and according to your great mercies you gave them saviors (yāšaʿ) who saved them from the hand of their enemies. [Nehemiah 9:27] Notice it was God who gave them saviors . . . God was the SOURCE.

The same word is used for others God sent out to save/deliver his people ----- I am not making God out to be lying - I am allowing God to have the prerogative to designate whomever He wants to accomplish whatever He needs done.

True, these are not saviors who can give eternal life but the final and last Savior chosen by God, Jesus Christ, he would give his life for the life of humanity - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Rom. 6:23]

except no man is capable of saving another man of their sins or giving their live as a ransom for their life.

 

[FreeInChrist]

except no man is capable of saving another man of their sins or giving their live as a ransom for their life.

Excellent

 

[TomL]

Um, if the article “The” appeared, then the Word and the God would be the same person, and that would not be trinitarianism.

Amazing Grace​

WHAT? If the article 'THE' appeared then it would read: 'and the Word was THE GOD' and the word and the God would be the same person .... so true!!! AND that is what Trinitarians would have us believe so it would be Trinitarianism.

No. Trinitarianism does not hold the Son and the Father are the same person.

BTW Trinitarianism does not teach he stopped being God

Amazing Grace​

OH, I know!!! Because it was Jesus' human side that shed blood, that died ----- yet Jesus never stopped being God. Yeah

??????????????

Also BTW how is it a mere man preexisted all things and nothing came into existence apart from him?

Amazing Grace​

Jesus did not literally preexist all things. He existed in the foreknowledge, in the mind of God.

False


John 1:1–3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Col 1:15–17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Heb 1:8–12 But of the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions.” And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
Hebrews 13:8 (NASB 95) — 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
John 1:15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ”
Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
1 Cor 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
1 John 1:1–2 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

Amazing Grace​

knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. [1 Peter 1:18-21]
Jesus had a beginning, a time when he began to exist --- he did not literally exist before then. We will be celebrating his birthday soon!!!

False See verses above and

John 17:5 (NASB 95) — 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Hebrews 1:2–3 (NASB 95) — 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Phil 2:5–11 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”

John 1:1–4 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

Amazing Grace​

In the beginning God spoke things into being....all things came into being through God's spoken word and apart from God speaking nothing came into being that has come into being ----

God's spoken word is not mentioned

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

John 1:10 (NASB 95) — 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Phil 2:5–11 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[civic]

No. Trinitarianism does not hold the Son and the Father are the same person.






??????????????






False


John 1:1–3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Col 1:15–17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Heb 1:8–12 But of the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions.” And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
Hebrews 13:8 (NASB 95) — 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
John 1:15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ”
Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
1 Cor 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
1 John 1:1–2 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—


False See verses above and

John 17:5 (NASB 95) — 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Hebrews 1:2–3 (NASB 95) — 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Phil 2:5–11 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”




God's spoken word is not mentioned

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

John 1:10 (NASB 95) — 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Phil 2:5–11 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Irrefutable brother well done. And all of Gods children said :

AMEN !!!

 

[TomL]

Irrefutable brother well done. And all of Gods children said :

AMEN !!!

Thank you brother

 

[amazing grace]

Scripture makes it equally clear that the one who died is not merely human, because that same Jesus now possesses and exercises divine attributes that no creature can share. After His death and resurrection, Jesus declares, “Wherever two or three are gathered in My name, there am I among them” (Matt 18:20), a claim of omnipresence, since He is simultaneously present with all His people everywhere—a prerogative that belongs to God alone (Jer 23:23–24). No purely human can reign at God’s right hand and omnipresently hear Christian prayer everywhere. Thus Scripture forces the conclusion that Jesus’ death was the death of God incarnate - truly human so He could die, yet truly God, as proven by His omnipresent presence with His people after death and resurrection, without any contradiction or division of His person.

What Jesus is NOW is because he was raised out from among the DEAD - He became a life giving Spirit. Yes, Jesus has been given all authority in heaven and on earth . . . And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Yes, he is among us - wherever two or three are gathered in his name, i.e. those who believe - Jesus is among them because of the Spirit dwelling within us. A prerogative that God shares with his Son. A purely human being DIED and purely human being did not see corruption but was raised and exalted to God's right hand. A human being is the mediator between God and man. No, scripture does not force the conclusion that Jesus' death was the death of God incarnate. The doctrine of the Trinity forces the conclusion . . . One cannot be truly human AND truly God ...... Either Jesus is God or he is a human - there is no such being that is immortal and mortal at the same time.

Again, putting an definite article before "God" would prove Modalism. I'm not a Modalist. Tell that to a Modalist. You're barking up the wrong tree and wasting your time.

I have not presented God in different modes or roles at all.

"Through him" proves that he is not created. Only God is Uncreated. Thanks for assisting me in proving Jesus is God.

So true only God is uncreated.....
This is what I said: It says all things were made through him (the word) and without him (the word) was not any thing made that was made. (parenthesis added for emphasis) . . . Ever read Genesis - where God created in the beginning with HIS WORD, WHAT HE SPOKE?

'through him' the subject is 'the word' from verse 1. the use of the personal pronouns for 'the word' is called personification - the same which is used when speaking of God's wisdom as 'she'.

"The only true God" is a statement of Monotheism. We believe in Monotheism. Unitarianism would have a case if you found a statement anywhere that says that only the Father is the only true God. Where is that verse?

Yes, the only true God is a statement of Monotheism.
So you say.
You know exactly where that is - John 17:3 - Jesus is praying to the FATHER: so you (personal possessive pronoun) is the Father and that makes the Father, the only true God.

And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. Eternal life is knowing the Father as the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent.

 

[civic]

What Jesus is NOW is because he was raised out from among the DEAD - He became a life giving Spirit.

What does " life giving spirit" mean to you ?

Is Jesus still a man inj heaven with a real, tangible, physical body ?

 

[amazing grace]

The only savior chosen by God is God the Son. That keeps all the Heavenly Fathers statements on the up and up as
only God can give eternal life.

This is why Jesus came to earth. for there was never another who could have done what He has for us.

Why do you insist on saying the scriptures lie? Do a word study on savior, deliverer the Hebrew word yāšaʿ and see for yourself.

I make God out to be lying in many passages where He says the above........
Does not scripture use the word yāšaʿ - (Hiphil) 1. to save, deliver; 2. to save from moral troubles; 3. to give victory to --- for the word SAVIOR --- the same Hebrew word used in Isaiah 43:11 ..... I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior (yāšaʿ).

It's also used here: Therefore you gave them into the hand of their enemies, who made them suffer. And in the time of their suffering they cried out to you and you heard them from heaven, and according to your great mercies you gave them saviors (yāšaʿ) who saved them from the hand of their enemies. [Nehemiah 9:27] Notice it was God who gave them saviors . . . God was the SOURCE.

The same word is used for others God sent out to save/deliver his people ----- I am not making God out to be lying - I am allowing God to have the prerogative to designate whomever He wants to accomplish whatever He needs done.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Is true. But he had to be God or it would not have worked.

NO, scripture does not say Jesus had to be God.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." [John 3:16-18]

Anyway I did include the following:

True, these are not saviors who can give eternal life but the final and last Savior chosen by God, Jesus Christ, he would give his life for the life of humanity - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Rom. 6:23]

 

[FreeInChrist]

Why do you insist on saying the scriptures lie? Do a word study on savior, deliverer the Hebrew word yāšaʿ and see for yourself.


NO, scripture does not say Jesus had to be God.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." [John 3:16-18]

Anyway I did include the following:

You are fairly contradicting your point....

Yes, yāšaʿ can mean deliver, rescue, save and men can be instruments of deliverance.
But Scripture makes a categorical distinction between:

Temporal / instrumental deliverance (God working through people) and

Ultimate / salvific salvation (forgiveness of sins, reconciliation to God)

The Bible never says human “deliverers” save from sin or grant eternal life. That role belongs to God alone.


So the issue is not the word “save” — it’s what kind of salvation is being claimed.

---

Doing a word study on yāšaʿdoes not solve the issue, it actually proves my point.

Yes, yāšaʿ can mean “deliver” or “rescue,” and God sometimes used human agents as instruments of deliverance. But Scripture makes a clear distinction between temporal deliverance and salvation from sin.

The Bible repeatedly says:

Only God forgives sins (Isaiah 43:25)

Only God saves from sin (Isaiah 45:21–22)

No man gives eternal life (Psalm 49:7–8)

Jesus didn’t merely rescue Israel from enemies—He forgave sins, granted eternal life, and claimed authority that belongs to God alone. That is precisely why He came: to do what no other “deliverer” ever did.

So the Scriptures don’t lie—the categories are being confused.

Human judges delivered Israel temporarily; Jesus saves eternally—and Scripture says only God does that.

If you want a tee shirt or bumper sticker that says this... I'll send one to you.

NOW... about your claim "scripture does not say Jesus had to be God."
Scripture may not use the sentence “Jesus had to be God”, but it explicitly states things only God can do and shows Jesus doing them.
That’s how Scripture itself argues.

---

The Bible says:

Only God forgives sins (Isaiah 43:25) — Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2:5–7)
Only God is Savior (Isaiah 45:21–22; Hosea 13:4) — Jesus is called Savior (Luke 2:11; Titus 2:13)
Only God gives eternal life (Psalm 49:7–8) — Jesus gives eternal life (John 10:28)
Every knee bows to YHWH (Isaiah 45:23) — every knee bows to Jesus (Philippians 2:10–11)

Scripture itself makes the identification.
If Jesus does what only God does, the conclusion comes from the text — not theology.

The Bible doesn’t argue Jesus’ deity by slogans, but by identity—Jesus does what Scripture says only God does.

 

[dwight92070]

TomL said:


No. Trinitarianism does not hold the Son and the Father are the same person.

You are correct, but the Bible does.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (they are distinct from each other) and the Word was God (they are each other)."

It's a contradiction to say that the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God - yet they are not each other. If they are each God (and there is only one God), then they HAVE to be each other. So the Trinity actually contradicts itself.

Paul said the Lord (Jesus) IS the (Holy) Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:17
Isaiah 9:6 tells us that the Son IS the Eternal Father.
Peter shows us that God (the Father) IS the Holy Spirit in Acts 5:3-4

If we know Jesus, we know the Father. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also." John 14:7
If we see Jesus, we see the Father. "He who has seen Me has seen the Father"; John 14:9
"He who sees Me, sees the One who sent Me." John 12:45
If we believe in Jesus, we believe in the Father. "He who believes Me , does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. John 12:44
"Believe in God, believe also in Me." John 14:1

Put your faith in God, put your faith also in Jesus.
"Thus says the Lord, 'Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind and makes flesh his strength, and whose heart turns away from the Lord.' " Jeremiah 17:5

If Jesus is ONLY a man, then we are cursed if we put our faith in Him, yet Jesus tells us to put our faith in Him. John 14:1

Therefore Jesus cannot be ONLY a man. He must be God in the flesh.

 

[civic]

TomL said:


No. Trinitarianism does not hold the Son and the Father are the same person.

You are correct, but the Bible does.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (they are distinct from each other) and the Word was God (they are each other)."

If we know Jesus, we know the Father. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also." John 14:7
If we see Jesus, we see the Father. "He who has seen Me has seen the Father"; John 14:9
"He who sees Me, sees the One who sent Me." John 12:45
If we believe in Jesus, we believe in the Father. "He who believes Me , does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. John 12:44
"Believe in God, believe also in Me." John 14:1

Put your faith in God, put your faith also in Jesus.
"Thus says the Lord, 'Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind and makes flesh his strength, and whose heart turns away from the Lord.' " Jeremiah 17:5

If Jesus is ONLY a man, then we are cursed if we put our faith in Him, yet Jesus tells us to put our faith in Him. John 14:1

The same God, not the same Person as that would be Modalism/Oneness, not Trintarianism. The Trinity is One God who is 3 distinct Persons. The Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Son and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Peterlag]

YHWH declares He alone is the Savior and Lord. So you both are wrong and are making Gods declaration about Him out to be untrue, false. God says He will not share His glory with anyone or anything, He alone is the Savior, He alone is Lord and there are none besides Him.

conclusion: Either Jesus is God or God is a liar. Which is it ?

next fallacy.

That is true... there are none other God's but Him. I put up a post once somewhere on here that said just that. I wrote...

Five verses from the Old Testament...

Now this is reliable news. God does not know about any other god. One would think if there were another god that He would know about it. Also, Isaiah 44:24 says that He stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that He spreadeth abroad the earth all by Himself.

Isaiah 44:6,8
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:21-22
there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
for I am God, and there is none else.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me:

 

[Peterlag]

Of course they didn't. God didn't reveal Himself as having three forms/manifestations/persons/or however you want to see them. But that doesn't mean that they didn't exist at that time. It just means that God had not revealed Himself to them in that way yet. But He has to us, and we must adjust our understanding to account for the new information He has given us. You cannot keep your head in the sand and pretend that you are still as ignorant as Abraham was of the nature of who God is (No offense intended to Abraham. He knew God in a much more personal way than we do today, but he only saw God as He was revealed at that time, so he was ignorant of God's triune nature as we can see it today).

There's no Trinity... The verses that are used to try to teach it are all taken out of context, or not understood how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from a bad translation.

The folks back when the trinity started to be taught weren't allowed to have Bibles to read for themselves. The rejection of the Trinity often brought severe punishment including the loss of your job, intimidation, harassment, confiscation of property, jail or imprisonment, torture, and even burning at the stake.

 

[FreeInChrist]

TomL said:


No. Trinitarianism does not hold the Son and the Father are the same person.

You are correct, but the Bible does.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (they are distinct from each other) and the Word was God (they are each other)."

No.

God the Word is separate from God the Father.

God the Holy Father is not an amoeba that he can self divide.

God and the Word are not the same Person, but they are both God.
The Word was with God and yet was God (John 1:1).

They are distinct

“The Word was with God” .... distinction of Persons
(You cannot be “with” yourself.)

They share the same divine nature

“And the Word was God” — identity of nature, not Person

The Word relates to the Father

“The Father loves the Son.” (John 3:35)
Love requires real personal distinction.

Jesus speaks to God, not to Himself

“Father, glorify Me in Your presence.” (John 17:5)

 

[Peterlag]

 

[synergy]

What Jesus is NOW is because he was raised out from among the DEAD - He became a life giving Spirit. Yes, Jesus has been given all authority in heaven and on earth . . . And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Yes, he is among us - wherever two or three are gathered in his name, i.e. those who believe - Jesus is among them because of the Spirit dwelling within us. A prerogative that God shares with his Son. A purely human being DIED and purely human being did not see corruption but was raised and exalted to God's right hand. A human being is the mediator between God and man. No, scripture does not force the conclusion that Jesus' death was the death of God incarnate. The doctrine of the Trinity forces the conclusion . . . One cannot be truly human AND truly God ...... Either Jesus is God or he is a human - there is no such being that is immortal and mortal at the same time.

So either Jesus is omnipresent which proves He is God or we go with your statement that "Either Jesus is God or he is a human" which is your own personal assertion. Sorry, you lose.

I have not presented God in different modes or roles at all.

Read up on what Modalism is all about and then come back to us. Until then....

So true only God is uncreated.....
This is what I said: It says all things were made through him (the word) and without him (the word) was not any thing made that was made. (parenthesis added for emphasis) . . . Ever read Genesis - where God created in the beginning with HIS WORD, WHAT HE SPOKE?

'through him' the subject is 'the word' from verse 1. the use of the personal pronouns for 'the word' is called personification - the same which is used when speaking of God's wisdom as 'she'.

That same Word, who was God, tabernacled as Jesus on Earth. Since God cannot cease to be God, whether he tabernacles or not, then Jesus is God.

Yes, the only true God is a statement of Monotheism.
So you say.
You know exactly where that is - John 17:3 - Jesus is praying to the FATHER: so you (personal possessive pronoun) is the Father and that makes the Father, the only true God.

Whether it's My Father or the Father, it makes no difference. I still don't see a verse that states that only the/my Father is the only true God. Take your time and maybe you might have better luck next time, though I doubt it very much because that would flatly contradict John 1:1c.

And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. Eternal life is knowing the Father as the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent.

Thank you so much for quoting that verse that proves that Jesus is an integral part of eternal life for the believer. Since that is the case and the fact that only God is the source of eternal life then that proves Jesus is God.

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

 

[mikesw]

TomL said:


No. Trinitarianism does not hold the Son and the Father are the same person.

You are correct, but the Bible does.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (they are distinct from each other) and the Word was God (they are each other)."

I thought you were arguing against Darin's non-Trinitarian view in another forum.

It's a contradiction to say that the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God - yet they are not each other. If they are each God (and there is only one God), then they HAVE to be each other. So the Trinity actually contradicts itself.

The very objective of the Trinitarian concept is to corral the points of evidence about Christ Jesus in a fashion that does not leave stark contradictions. Remember also that John 1 speaks in the past tense "was with God ...was God" Without a Trinitarian conception God cannot be with God unless there is something distinct before Jesus's incarnation of being like Father and Son as a single God. Some share that "God" is a title -- the word is placeholder not a clear definition. That is why God simply identifies himself as "I Am."

Paul said the Lord (Jesus) IS the (Holy) Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:17
Isaiah 9:6 tells us that the Son IS the Eternal Father.
Peter shows us that God (the Father) IS the Holy Spirit in Acts 5:3-4

For 2 Cor 3:17 a commentary notes (by contrast to your point):
So when under the new covenant they turn to the Lord they experience him as the Spirit. The expression the Lord is the Spirit is not a one-to-one identification, but rather a way of saying that under the new covenant the Lord is to us the Spirit
Kruse, 2 Corinthians, 99.

Isaiah 9:6 does not say "the eternal father" since the "the" is omitted. In speaking of Jesus here, the concept can be of him as the last Adam -- the father of new creation.

I think it is too speculative to sway so far from the Trinitarian concepts.

If we know Jesus, we know the Father. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also." John 14:7
If we see Jesus, we see the Father. "He who has seen Me has seen the Father"; John 14:9
"He who sees Me, sees the One who sent Me." John 12:45
If we believe in Jesus, we believe in the Father. "He who believes Me , does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. John 12:44
"Believe in God, believe also in Me." John 14:1

I think it would be deceptive to make the distinction of the Father if the idea was simply and exactly about Jesus himself as the Father.

Put your faith in God, put your faith also in Jesus.
"Thus says the Lord, 'Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind and makes flesh his strength, and whose heart turns away from the Lord.' " Jeremiah 17:5

If Jesus is ONLY a man, then we are cursed if we put our faith in Him, yet Jesus tells us to put our faith in Him. John 14:1

Therefore Jesus cannot be ONLY a man. He must be God in the flesh.

It seems overall that you restrict the place holder "God" to being a singular "one" instead of the concept of oneness per the Shema.

 

[mikesw]

View attachment 2663

The one losing the debate asks "why debate?" hahah. The problem is that the unitarian fails to make sense of the 738,000 words in the Bible. The question really is "why does the unitarian debate against scripture?"

 

[Doug Brents]

There's no Trinity... The verses that are used to try to teach it are all taken out of context, or not understood how the words were used in the culture they were written in, or from a bad translation.

The folks back when the trinity started to be taught weren't allowed to have Bibles to read for themselves. The rejection of the Trinity often brought severe punishment including the loss of your job, intimidation, harassment, confiscation of property, jail or imprisonment, torture, and even burning at the stake.

Pete, read the Scripture. What does it say about Jesus?
Jesus is the Logos of God, which was with God and was God in the beginning (when time and the world began).
Jesus (the Logos) was responsible for creating everything that is (which means that It/He cannot be a created being (since He cannot create Himself)).
Jesus calls Himself the "I AM" which is the name that God gave Himself when He spoke to Moses out of the burning bush.
Jesus says that He is the "First and the Last" and "alpha and omega" in Revelation. This is another name God gave Himself in
Isa 44:6, 48:12.

In all of this, Jesus did not sin. It is a sin to equate yourself with God if you are not really God. Jesus claimed to be God, to be one with God, to be equal to God, to be eternal; which would all be a sin if it was not true. Yet Jesus did not sin even once during His lifetime. If He had sinned, then He would not qualify as our redeemer, and we would all still be lost. So either He is God, or we are still lost in our sin without hope of salvation of any kind, and our faith is in vain.

Take your pick, but those are the only options you have: Jesus is God, or Jesus is a sinner.

 

[mikesw]

That is true... there are none other God's but Him. I put up a post once somewhere on here that said just that. I wrote...

Five verses from the Old Testament...

Now this is reliable news. God does not know about any other god. One would think if there were another god that He would know about it. Also, Isaiah 44:24 says that He stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that He spreadeth abroad the earth all by Himself.

Isaiah 44:6,8
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:21-22
there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
for I am God, and there is none else.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me:

I cannot believe that Peterlag can be so ignorant of the bible concept to present these verses as an argument against who God is.

We know that "God" is not an explanation of who the "I Am" is but only kind of a common designation. Thus, it is not contradictory for this God to reveal the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit all as this single One.