Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Peterlag]

Pete, read the Scripture. What does it say about Jesus?
Jesus is the Logos of God, which was with God and was God in the beginning (when time and the world began).
Jesus (the Logos) was responsible for creating everything that is (which means that It/He cannot be a created being (since He cannot create Himself)).
Jesus calls Himself the "I AM" which is the name that God gave Himself when He spoke to Moses out of the burning bush.
Jesus says that He is the "First and the Last" and "alpha and omega" in Revelation. This is another name God gave Himself in
Isa 44:6, 48:12.

In all of this, Jesus did not sin. It is a sin to equate yourself with God if you are not really God. Jesus claimed to be God, to be one with God, to be equal to God, to be eternal; which would all be a sin if it was not true. Yet Jesus did not sin even once during His lifetime. If He had sinned, then He would not qualify as our redeemer, and we would all still be lost. So either He is God, or we are still lost in our sin without hope of salvation of any kind, and our faith is in vain.

Take your pick, but those are the only options you have: Jesus is God, or Jesus is a sinner.

The word "logos" (Word) denotes (I) "the expression of thought" as embodying a conception or idea. λόγος "logos" is something said (including the thought). So the word "logos" means an expression of thought. It makes perfect sense if we use this understanding everywhere the word "logos" is used. So in John 1:1 the Word is not Jesus, but rather it became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan that became flesh with the coming of Jesus Christ.

 

[mikesw]

The word "logos" (Word) denotes (I) "the expression of thought" as embodying a conception or idea. λόγος "logos" is something said (including the thought). So the word "logos" means an expression of thought. It makes perfect sense if we use this understanding everywhere the word "logos" is used. So in John 1:1 the Word is not Jesus, but rather it became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan that became flesh with the coming of Jesus Christ.

See? Peterlag gets this wrong too. The logos with Philo and Greek philosophy was an active participant in creation. That hardly can be a thought or message. It hardly could be all that God is when the logos is a thought or message. Peterlag therefore misses all logic and sensibility. The use of logos is metaleptically applied to the One along with the Father who was involved consciously and creatively in creation. Too much has to be overlooked when denying this active role.

 

[TomL]

What Jesus is NOW is because he was raised out from among the DEAD - He became a life giving Spirit. Yes, Jesus has been given all authority in heaven and on earth . . . And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Yes, he is among us - wherever two or three are gathered in his name, i.e. those who believe - Jesus is among them because of the Spirit dwelling within us. A prerogative that God shares with his Son. A purely human being DIED and purely human being did not see corruption but was raised and exalted to God's right hand. A human being is the mediator between God and man. No, scripture does not force the conclusion that Jesus' death was the death of God incarnate. The doctrine of the Trinity forces the conclusion . . . One cannot be truly human AND truly God ...... Either Jesus is God or he is a human - there is no such being that is immortal and mortal at the same time.

UM

John 1:1–3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

He was there in the beginning. And all things came into being through him


John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

He speaks of his existence before becoming flesh.

Col 1:15–17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

By him all things were created


Heb 1:8–12But of the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions.” And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”

He laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens were the works of his hand.

Far more than a mere man.

 

[Doug Brents]

The word "logos" (Word) denotes (I) "the expression of thought" as embodying a conception or idea. λόγος "logos" is something said (including the thought). So the word "logos" means an expression of thought. It makes perfect sense if we use this understanding everywhere the word "logos" is used. So in John 1:1 the Word is not Jesus, but rather it became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan that became flesh with the coming of Jesus Christ.

That is not what the Scripture says. It says that the Logos (which was both with God and was God), became flesh and lived on Earth. That means that the Logos IS Jesus and Jesus is God (since the Logos is God).

You cannot get around that with fancy wordplay.

 

[civic]

That is not what the Scripture says. It says that the Logos (which was both with God and was God), became flesh and lived on Earth. That means that the Logos IS Jesus and Jesus is God (since the Logos is God).

You cannot get around that with fancy wordplay.

Yes I use to call that “ word salad “ all the time

 

[Peterlag]

That is not what the Scripture says. It says that the Logos (which was both with God and was God), became flesh and lived on Earth. That means that the Logos IS Jesus and Jesus is God (since the Logos is God).

You cannot get around that with fancy wordplay.

I don't see what you see. I see the Word became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan with the coming of Jesus Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

YHWH declares He alone is the Savior and Lord. So you both are wrong and are making Gods declaration about Him out to be untrue, false. God says He will not share His glory with anyone or anything, He alone is the Savior, He alone is Lord and there are none besides Him.

conclusion: Either Jesus is God or God is a liar. Which is it ?

next fallacy.

It's sad. I feel bad that a good guy like you is into this Trinity thing.

 

[Doug Brents]

I don't see what you see. I see the Word became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan with the coming of Jesus Christ.

The fact that you don't see it doesn't mean that it is not truth. It just means that you cannot see the truth, or will not accept the truth.

Jesus is God. Scripture says it very clearly and plainly in John 1:1, 3, 14.

As I said in a previous post, who does it say created all things in Gen 1:1? God, yes?
Who does it say created all things in John 1:3 and Col 1:16? Jesus.
That means that Jesus is God. You cannot get around these facts.

 

[synergy]

The fact that you don't see it doesn't mean that it is not truth. It just means that you cannot see the truth, or will not accept the truth.

Jesus is God. Scripture says it very clearly and plainly in John 1:1, 3, 14.

As I said in a previous post, who does it say created all things in Gen 1:1? God, yes?
Who does it say created all things in John 1:3 and Col 1:16? Jesus.
That means that Jesus is God. You cannot get around these facts.

When an individual (a unitarian in this case) blatantly contradicts a hundred times what Scripture and what at least a dozen other people repeatedly and clearly communicate to him/her, then it's time to give this all over to the Lord in prayer and move on. Our time is valuable and can be much better spent in more constructive pursuits such as advancing the Kingdom of God, not spinning our wheels.

CC: @civic

 

[amazing grace]

You are fairly contradicting your point....

Yes, yāšaʿ can mean deliver, rescue, save and men can be instruments of deliverance.
But Scripture makes a categorical distinction between:

Temporal / instrumental deliverance (God working through people) and

Ultimate / salvific salvation (forgiveness of sins, reconciliation to God)

The Bible never says human “deliverers” save from sin or grant eternal life. That role belongs to God alone.

So the issue is not the word “save” — it’s what kind of salvation is being claimed.

---

Doing a word study on yāšaʿdoes not solve the issue, it actually proves my point.

Yes, yāšaʿ can mean “deliver” or “rescue,” and God sometimes used human agents as instruments of deliverance. But Scripture makes a clear distinction between temporal deliverance and salvation from sin.

True, these are not saviors who can give eternal life but the final and last Savior chosen by God, Jesus Christ, he would give his life for the life of humanity - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Rom. 6:23]

Which is why I said ^^^^^

The Bible repeatedly says:

Only God forgives sins (Isaiah 43:25)

“I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins. (Isaiah 43:25) where does that say ONLY God forgives sin? Didn't he give authority to the Son of man to forgive sins?

Only God saves from sin (Isaiah 45:21–22)

“Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, you survivors of the nations! They have no knowledge who carry about their wooden idols, and keep on praying to a god that cannot save. Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together!
Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.' Right, God is a righteous God and Savior - God is the SOURCE of our salvation. It was God Himself who set in motion the plan of salvation for humanity and that salvation would come through His Son, Jesus, the Messiah.

No man gives eternal life (Psalm 49:7–8)

Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice,
that he should live on forever and never see the pit. So true, no one has ENOUGH wealth or riches to pay the ransom for someone's life - NO amount of MONEY would ever suffice that one should live forever. Jesus didn't try to ransom us with MONEY but with his own LIFE he ransomed us --- we were ransomed not with perishable gold or silver but with the precious blood of Jesus Christ.

Jesus didn’t merely rescue Israel from enemies—He forgave sins, granted eternal life, and claimed authority that belongs to God alone. That is precisely why He came: to do what no other “deliverer” ever did.

So the Scriptures don’t lie—the categories are being confused.

Yes, Jesus had the authority to forgive sins: But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” —he said to the man who was paralyzed—“I say to you, rise, pick up your bed and go home.”..... Who gave him that authority?
Yes, Jesus can give eternal life: For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. [John 5:21,26]
Authority that God can give to whom he pleases.

Human judges delivered Israel temporarily; Jesus saves eternally—and Scripture says only God does that.

If you want a tee shirt or bumper sticker that says this... I'll send one to you.

NOW... about your claim "scripture does not say Jesus had to be God."
Scripture may not use the sentence “Jesus had to be God”, but it explicitly states things only God can do and shows Jesus doing them.
That’s how Scripture itself argues.

And HOW is Jesus doing those things? Acts 2:22 tells us exactly HOW: “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— and And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
So he didn't have to be God . . .

The Bible says:

Only God forgives sins (Isaiah 43:25) — Jesus forgives sins (Mark 2:5–7)
Only God is Savior (Isaiah 45:21–22; Hosea 13:4) — Jesus is called Savior (Luke 2:11; Titus 2:13)
Only God gives eternal life (Psalm 49:7–8) — Jesus gives eternal life (John 10:28)
Every knee bows to YHWH (Isaiah 45:23) — every knee bows to Jesus (Philippians 2:10–11)

Scripture itself makes the identification.
If Jesus does what only God does, the conclusion comes from the text — not theology.

The Bible doesn’t argue Jesus’ deity by slogans, but by identity—Jesus does what Scripture says only God does.

If Jesus does what only God does, the conclusion is that God gave him the authority to utilize His attributes and that is at God's discretion and God's own prerogative.

and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” [Rev. 7:10]

 

[amazing grace]

except no man is capable of saving another man of their sins or giving their live as a ransom for their life.

Correct, no amount of wealth or riches is enough to ransom a man to eternal life but we weren't ransomed 'with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ.'

What does " life giving spirit" mean to you ?

Is Jesus still a man inj heaven with a real, tangible, physical body ?

He is a life-giving spirit which means he can restore life to those who are dead . . . . God has given Christ the power to raise the dead (John 5:21,26; 6:39-54; 11:25).
Jesus showed himself to the disciples in a risen spiritual body which had flesh and bone but could pass through doors and appear out of nowhere . . . so flesh and bone but apparently different from our natural physical bodies.

 

[mikesw]

Correct, no amount of wealth or riches is enough to ransom a man to eternal life but we weren't ransomed 'with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ.'

It stands out how you overlook the first part and just focus on the gold and silver. That is a sign of unitarian blindness.

The payment could not be a mere man. It had to be the Son of God who has the essence of his Father.

 

[amazing grace]

So either Jesus is omnipresent which proves He is God or we go with your statement that "Either Jesus is God or he is a human" which is your own personal assertion. Sorry, you lose.

Jesus' spiritual presence with his followers, i.e. with believers has nothing to do with being being God. It's about his being present, in connection with us as a comforting assurance and involvement in our lives.

Either Jesus is God or he is a human being . . .

Read up on what Modalism is all about and then come back to us. Until then.....
That same Word, who was God, tabernacled as Jesus on Earth. Since God cannot cease to be God, whether he tabernacles or not, then Jesus is God.

Whether it's My Father or the Father, it makes no difference. I still don't see a verse that states that only the/my Father is the only true God. Take your time and maybe you might have better luck next time, though I doubt it very much because that would flatly contradict John 1:1c.

'and the Word was God' - not the Word who was God . . . that's not what it says. Grammatically without the definite article 'God' is the predicate nominative and as such is qualitative not equivalent. IOW, the word was the full expression of God or fully expressed who God is/was - so it was the full expression of God which became flesh and dwelt among us the only Son from the Father full of grace and truth. Jesus fully reflected, fully expressed who God was which is why he could say 'Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’'------- being the exact representation of God.

Thank you so much for quoting that verse that proves that Jesus is an integral part of eternal life for the believer. Since that is the case and the fact that only God is the source of eternal life then that proves Jesus is God.

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

Yes, Jesus is an integral part of eternal life for the believer because if you don't believe in the only begotten Son of God - you ain't got nothing! For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will...... For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.......“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.....Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. [John 5:21,25,26,28]
It seems God is not the only source of eternal life - It seems Jesus has been given all authority in heaven and on earth!!!

 

[amazing grace]

It stands out how you overlook the first part and just focus on the gold and silver. That is a sign of unitarian blindness.

The payment could not be a mere man. It had to be the Son of God who has the essence of his Father.

Well, this is not the first time Psalm 49 has come up and I have addressed it . . . Let's try it again and see what kind of response we get this time.

those who trust in their wealth, and boast of the abundance of their riches? Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, that he should live on forever and never see the pit.

What kind of man is this talking about? - men who trust in their wealth and boast of the abundance of their riches ---- that man cannot ransom another or give the price of one's life because the ransom of their life is costly and no amount of wealth or riches could ever suffice that one should live forever.

See this sentence carried the thought of Psalm 49 and the thought of 1 Peter 1:19 together ----
Correct, no amount of wealth or riches is enough to ransom a man to eternal life but we weren't ransomed 'with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ.' The payment could be a man and the payment was a man.
God did not owe the penalty for sin to himself ---- Humanity owed the penalty for sin to God therefore a human being had to pay it.

 

[mikesw]

Well, this is not the first time Psalm 49 has come up and I have addressed it . . . Let's try it again and see what kind of response we get this time.

those who trust in their wealth, and boast of the abundance of their riches? Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, that he should live on forever and never see the pit.

What kind of man is this talking about? - men who trust in their wealth and boast of the abundance of their riches ---- that man cannot ransom another or give the price of one's life because the ransom of their life is costly and no amount of wealth or riches could ever suffice that one should live forever.

See this sentence carried the thought of Psalm 49 and the thought of 1 Peter 1:19 together ----
Correct, no amount of wealth or riches is enough to ransom a man to eternal life but we weren't ransomed 'with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ.' The payment could be a man and the payment was a man.
God did not owe the penalty for sin to himself ---- Humanity owed the penalty for sin to God therefore a human being had to pay it.

Not convincing about this being focused on wealthy people. The psalm simply notes that wealth was not a way of being ransomed either.
Then 1 Peter 1:19 just affirms that only the divine Son could cover the sins.

It seems to easy for the unitarian to gloss over critical details.

 

[Peterlag]

The fact that you don't see it doesn't mean that it is not truth. It just means that you cannot see the truth, or will not accept the truth.

Jesus is God. Scripture says it very clearly and plainly in John 1:1, 3, 14.

As I said in a previous post, who does it say created all things in Gen 1:1? God, yes?
Who does it say created all things in John 1:3 and Col 1:16? Jesus.
That means that Jesus is God. You cannot get around these facts.

I can get around the Scripture you mentioned above because they are not facts.

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colossians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

 

[mikesw]

I can get around the Scripture you mentioned above because they are not facts.

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colossians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

Really Peterlag? You are going to repeat this propaganda 20 times a week? It becomes pure propaganda they way you throw this out over and over and over and over again. Maybe put some thought into the discussion.

 

[civic]

Jesus' spiritual presence with his followers, i.e. with believers has nothing to do with being being God. It's about his being present, in connection with us as a comforting assurance and involvement in our lives.

Either Jesus is God or he is a human being . . .

'and the Word was God' - not the Word who was God . . . that's not what it says. Grammatically without the definite article 'God' is the predicate nominative and as such is qualitative not equivalent. IOW, the word was the full expression of God or fully expressed who God is/was - so it was the full expression of God which became flesh and dwelt among us the only Son from the Father full of grace and truth. Jesus fully reflected, fully expressed who God was which is why he could say 'Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’'------- being the exact representation of God.

Yes, Jesus is an integral part of eternal life for the believer because if you don't believe in the only begotten Son of God - you ain't got nothing! For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will...... For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.......“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.....Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. [John 5:21,25,26,28]
It seems God is not the only source of eternal life - It seems Jesus has been given all authority in heaven and on earth!!!

Well for starters the Spirit of moses cannot exist with another person on this earth, the same with abraham, david or any other human that has ever existed.

But as we know the Spirit of Christ lives in and dwells in all believers. This can only be possible if Christ is God.

you ain't got nuttin

next fallacy

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Galatians 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Acts 16:7
And when they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not permit them.

He was in the OT prophets too

1 Peter 1:11 declares the Pre Existence of Christ since it was His Spirit that was in the OT Prophets. Once again proving His Deity.

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow

Gods Word is Eternal​

More proof Jesus is God. His words are eternal.

Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Psalms 119:160
All your words are true;
all your righteous laws are eternal.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flower fades,
But the word of our God stands forever.

Acts 13:44-50
And the next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy, and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 "For thus the Lord has commanded us,

'I have placed You as a light for the Gentiles,
That You should bring salvation to the end of the earth.'"

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region.

The word of the Lord(Jesus) is the word of God. More proof Jesus is God in Acts.
The word of the Lord, the word of Christ is the same as the word of God. The word of the Lord(Jesus) was spread throughout the book of Acts as the very word of God and they are used interchangeably in Acts. Below we see the word of the Lord = Jesus words are the very words of God. This can be said of no mere man but only a man who is also God as Scripture declares about Christ.

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you,

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.


2 Thessalonians 3:1-3
Finally, brothers, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men, for not everyone has faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.

1 Peter 1:23-25
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord stands forever."

And this is the word that was preached to you.

1-Can we say let the word of Paul richly dwell in you
2-Can we say let the word of Peter richly dwell in you
3-Can we say let the word of David richly dwell in you
4-Can we say let the word of Moses richly dwell in you

the answer to the above is a resounding NO you cannot say it.

But you can say let the word of God, the word of the Lord, the word of Christ richly dwell in you because they have the exact/identical meaning.

hope this helps!!!

 

[civic]

The spirit of Christ is synonymous with and equal to the spirit of God, the spirit of the Father and the Holy Spirit-

Our Blessed Trinity at work