Indeed. He tries to deny the scripture but he still uses it.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
Certainly they rejected God himself and they rejected the Son and they started to avoid the Two Powers in Heaven discussion for the very reason that it backs up the pre-existence of the One who became flesh as Jesus. Very good observation you have made here.
Runningman
Active Member
That's what you do.
Doug Brents
Active Member
That was directed at Pete, who clearly does not believe in Scripture.
Runningman
Active Member
Who do the Jews say is their God according to Jesus? Did the Jews call Him YHWH but Jesus called Him Father?
John 8
54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory means nothing. The One who glorifies Me is My Father, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’
Not sure what you are saying here?
amazing grace
Active Member
The "Two Powers in Heaven" concept in Jewish thought refers to the belief, particularly in the Second Temple period, that Yahweh (God) had a second divine figure or manifestation sharing His throne and authority, such as the Angel of the Lord, Metatron, Wisdom, or the Son of Man, a belief later deemed heretical (binitarianism) by some rabbis but foundational to Christian Trinitarian ideas, often seen as God (the transcendent "Ancient of Days") and a visible, earthly representative.
Source AI - Question asked: What are the two powers in heaven? There is more. . .
Glad you at least looked into the meaning. You remember that most Jews rejected Jesus and thus would suppress the discussion of the Two Powers in Heaven.
Doug Brents
Active Member
You have been shown what John 1:1, 3, & 14 say, and how the Truth of it destroys your argument. Yet you persist in denying Christ. You cannot defeat Scripture by saying it was improperly translated. You cannot defeat Scripture by saying it is being misinterpreted. It says clearly that Jesus is God. Your insistence that He is not God demonstrates to me that you are not a follower of Christ, and are here solely to destroy the faith of weak Christ followers.
amazing grace
Active Member
In order to respond intelligently I needed to understand the concept being presented.
The "Two Powers in Heaven" concept in Jewish thought refers to the belief, particularly in the Second Temple period that the belief, particularly in the Second Temple period, that Yahweh (God) had a second divine figure or manifestation sharing His throne and authority, such as the Angel of the Lord, Metatron, Wisdom, or the Son of Man, a belief later deemed heretical (binitarianism) by some rabbis but foundational to Christian Trinitarian ideas, often seen as God (the transcendent "Ancient of Days") and a visible, earthly representative.
Origins & Development
- Ancient Near Eastern Roots: The idea stems from ancient Canaanite divine council structures with a high god (El) and a vice-regent (Baal).
- Biblical Precursors: The Angel of the Lord in Exodus 23:20-21, who carries God's name, foreshadows this.
- Jewish Speculation: During the Second Temple period, Jewish thinkers identified this second power as Wisdom (Proverbs 8), the Angel of the Lord (Malik Adonai), or the pre-existent Son of Man (Daniel 7).
- The Transcendent God: The invisible, supreme Yahweh, the "Ancient of Days".
- The Manifested Power: A second divine figure, sometimes God's essence in another form (hypostasis), sharing His divine authority, often appearing in human form (the visible "Yahweh") or as a powerful angel (Metatron).
- Rabbis condemned this idea, especially as it related to Christianity's portrayal of Jesus as divine (binitarian heresy).
- They often saw it as two distinct divine figures, challenging strict monotheism, though some scholars suggest they were trying to explain Yahweh's dual presence.
- This concept provided a framework for understanding divine presence and authority in early Jewish thought.
- It became a crucial point of divergence between Judaism and developing Christianity, influencing early Christian Christology (theology of Christ).
Duhhh. I already mentioned that the rabinnical Judaism rejected it solidly after Jesus came. Do you think they are going to sustain that debate when it supports who Jesus is?
I'm not sure where the mention of the Canaanite stuff is significant here or what the source is of that idea being shared in the AI response.
Philo developed the idea of the divine One with God more clearly with his apologetic concerning the logos. John then pointed to this logos as being the Son. You have to reject as much as the Pharisees to come out with your opinion.
You can still work on developing an intelligent response. We can give you some time on that.
You are simply denying scripture.
And importantly you have failed to rebut the fact that He cannot be taken as an non personal thing
BTW all things were made by him and that eliminates the possibility of him being a thing.
And He is the radiance of the glory of God the exact representation of his nature
Heb 1:1–3God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Through whom (personal reality) he made the world
Importantly, can a non personal thing represent the nature of God?
Can it be The image of God?
Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
And it was by him, not it all things were created.
yet another refutation of your denial
2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Is God a non personal thing?
Is a non personal thing an image of God?
Is God himself a mere thing?
You have totally avoided addressing such
Philippians 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
He Christ existed in the form of a thing or in the form of God according to scripture?
Can a non personal thing exist in the form of God?
Such is an incredible impossibility/
The result is your claim of his existence as a thing is clearly unbiblical if you actually examine scripture.
And regarding the creation of all things
John 1:1–3In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Col 1:15–17He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
further
Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Hebrews 1:10 (NASB 95) — 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
you are shown to be in error on the two fronts being addressed.
Ignoring what was posted
We have one who is coming with clouds, one to whom is glory and dominion. He had been pierced.
Hello, Jesus, not the Father, had been pierced.
Revelation 1:6–8 (NASB 95) — 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
with
He who is to come is the Lord God, the almighty
Revelation 22:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. 16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
The coming one is the Lord Jesus.
The one pierced is Jesus Christ.
He is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end
So he is the coming one, God, the almighty.
Peterlag
Active Member
You can call it ignoring if that gives you pleasure and for a good reason. Because Revelation has nothing to do with the trinity or that Jesus is God or is written concerning Christians.
amazing grace
Active Member
I don't delve that much into mysticism, paganism, other divine beings, Greek philosophy so I do have to look things up that deal with that type of thing. And I surely won't spend much of my time on it.
Peterlag
Active Member
Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colosians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.
So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colosians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.
It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.
The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...
1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.
And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.
Peterlag
Active Member
When the Scripture refers to God speaking. He says Jesus is His son.
When the Scripture refers to Jesus speaking. He says God is his Father.
I would tend to agree with that too. However, there are details of Greek philosophy that come into play, especially when looking at articles sharing Philo's apologetic to the gentiles that appeals to them on the topic of logos. God has utilized Philo as this intermediary in revealing who Jesus is -- namely as the logos One becoming flesh, as shared in John 1. As to the gentiles who only knew the Greek philosophy on this, they had a sufficient background on the logos to just follow John's point. (I could suppose the logos concept of Greek philosophy had become familiar at various levels throughout the culture.)
Runningman
Active Member
Jesus said "My Father, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’"
Who is "He is our God" referring to?
Who was Jesus referring to when he said "My Father?"
