Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Runningman]

Duhh. Why would most Jews even be thinking about the Two Powers in Heaven? I'm not sure what you are trying to convey in saying the obvious?
But now you are denying that Jesus is the Son. So you contradict everything in scripture. You get more confused as you share more of your ideas.

So the Jews didn't believe God is a trinity, but rather YHWH (also known as Father even in the Old Testament). Not only did Jesus affirm their beliefs in who God is, but he didn't correct them. Means there is no trinity at all.

 

[mikesw]

So the Jews didn't believe God is a trinity, but rather YHWH (also known as Father even in the Old Testament). Not only did Jesus affirm their beliefs in who God is, but he didn't correct them. Means there is no trinity at all.

The word Yhwh says nothing against the triune essence of God. You demonstrate your extreme bias against the testimony of scripture.

 

[Runningman]

The word Yhwh says nothing against the triune essence of God. You demonstrate your extreme bias against the testimony of scripture.

Mike, there is no bias man. There just isn't a trinity. Sorry, but that's how it is. Don't you think Jesus did a God job at declaring who God is? If God is a trinity why didn't Jesus correct anyone if they were so wrong? Why did Jesus only ever go around talking about his God and their God, calling God his Father, only ever teaching about worshipping and praying to the Father?

At some point it's time to get a clue and wise up. The only true God is the Father.... indeed it's true.

Don't think of it as a personal slight against you. It's ok to be deceived and correct the course once you've found the truth, but to just continue in denials is not good. You do want the truth don't you?

and by the way, I can do through every single last one of Jesus' teachings and show you how God is the Father, but never described as a trinity. Why do I rarely do that? Because can you believe any of it if you are not even ready for the milk of the word? You have been given straight, simple, milk so far and you aren't even ready for that yet. You needs prayer.

cc: @Peterlag

 

[TomL]

Again, I already addressed this that you say I have not. Here are just two statements I gave and I will give them again here...

John 1:3 “Everything came to be through it.” The logos is an “it” not a “him.”

Translators have deliberately chosen to use “him” because they wanted to emphasize that the Word was the male person we know as Jesus. This was a theological choice, not a linguistic one.

"Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you” (Proverbs 4:6).

Is the Wisdom in Proverbs 4:6 a distinct divine person?

The "Word" is not literally a person for the same reason that "Wisdom" is not literally a person. Both are to be taken metaphorically.

Jesus is the personification of the Word because He speaks the words of God. To listen to Jesus equals listening to the Word of God.

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colosians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colosians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.

Sorry what I posted disproves your claims

You are simply denying scripture and ignoring the point

BTW all things were made by him and that eliminates the possibility of him being a thing.

John 1:3 (NASB 95) — 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Seeing he Jesus, created the world and the world came into existence which apart from the above creator cannot be

Attension here Christ is proven to be a he who created all things.

as I stated

Therefore he Jesus must be the creator of all things

And He is the radiance of the glory of God the exact representation of his nature

Heb 1:1–3God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Through whom (personal reality) he made the world

Importantly, can a non personal thing represent the nature of God?

You fail to answer

Can an it be The image of God?

Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

And it was by him, not it all things were created.

2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Is God a non personal thing?

Is a non personal thing an image of God?

Is God himself a mere thing?

You provide no answer

Philippians 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

He Christ existed in the form of a thing or in the form of God according to scripture?

Can a non personal thing exist in the form of God?

Such is an incredible impossibility

And so you avoid a reply

The result is Your claim of his existence as a thing is clearly unbiblical if you actually examine scripture.

And additionally, we see He created all things.

And you stand in error regarding both points being addressed.

 

[mikesw]

Mike, there is no bias man. There just isn't a trinity. Sorry, but that's how it is. Don't you think Jesus did a God job at declaring who God is? If God is a trinity why didn't Jesus correct anyone if they were so wrong? Why did Jesus only ever go around talking about his God and their God, calling God his Father, only ever teaching about worshipping and praying to the Father?

At some point it's time to get a clue and wise up. The only true God is the Father.... indeed it's true.

Don't think of it as a personal slight against you. It's ok to be deceived and correct the course once you've found the truth, but to just continue in denials is not good. You do want the truth don't you?

and by the way, I can do through every single last one of Jesus' teachings and show you how God is the Father, but never described as a trinity. Why do I rarely do that? Because can you believe any of it if you are not even ready for the milk of the word? You have been given straight, simple, milk so far and you aren't even ready for that yet. You needs prayer.

cc: @Peterlag

The Jews were all wrong. I think you missed the very fact that Jesus said they did not know God. That is the problem in your analysis. You miss too much detail and arrive at the wrong doctrines.
It does not matter what you find or say about the trinity concept. You have to reject the passages of Christ's divinity and pre-existence in divine form in order that you create a unitarian doctrine. You have failed to make sufficient arguments against the deity of Christ. As such your new, novel, private doctrine does not sustain itself in your arguments.

 

[TomL]

Mike, there is no bias man. There just isn't a trinity. Sorry, but that's how it is. Don't you think Jesus did a God job at declaring who God is? If God is a trinity why didn't Jesus correct anyone if they were so wrong? Why did Jesus only ever go around talking about his God and their God, calling God his Father, only ever teaching about worshipping and praying to the Father?

At some point it's time to get a clue and wise up. The only true God is the Father.... indeed it's true.

Don't think of it as a personal slight against you. It's ok to be deceived and correct the course once you've found the truth, but to just continue in denials is not good. You do want the truth don't you?

and by the way, I can do through every single last one of Jesus' teachings and show you how God is the Father, but never described as a trinity. Why do I rarely do that? Because can you believe any of it if you are not even ready for the milk of the word? You have been given straight, simple, milk so far and you aren't even ready for that yet. You needs prayer.

cc: @Peterlag

Er Christ affirmed he is God

John 20:28–29 (NASB 95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

Believed what?

Jesus is your lord and God

 

[Walt]

Justin Martyr and other church fathers from the 2nd Century, did they believe that Jesus was the Angel of the Lord that spoke to Moses?

Did Justin Martyr quote Proverbs 8:22 and Isaiah 9:6 from the Greek Lxx Septuagint?

 

[Peterlag]

Sorry what I posted disproves your claims

You are simply denying scripture and ignoring the point

BTW all things were made by him and that eliminates the possibility of him being a thing.

John 1:3 (NASB 95) — 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Seeing he Jesus, created the world and the world came into existence which apart from the above creator cannot be

Attension here Christ is proven to be a he who created all things.

as I stated

Therefore he Jesus must be the creator of all things

And He is the radiance of the glory of God the exact representation of his nature

Heb 1:1–3God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Through whom (personal reality) he made the world

Importantly, can a non personal thing represent the nature of God?

You fail to answer

Can an it be The image of God?

Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

And it was by him, not it all things were created.

2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Is God a non personal thing?

Is a non personal thing an image of God?

Is God himself a mere thing?

You provide no answer

Philippians 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

He Christ existed in the form of a thing or in the form of God according to scripture?

Can a non personal thing exist in the form of God?

Such is an incredible impossibility

And so you avoid a reply

The result is Your claim of his existence as a thing is clearly unbiblical if you actually examine scripture.

And additionally, we see He created all things.

And you stand in error regarding both points being addressed.

You crack me up on this site. You don't say, well... I disagree. Or I do not understand how you can come to the concept that you do. Or I believe you are wrong. You instead say you have proven me wrong. Like only you can be right and it's not possible that I can. And the hilarious part here is that I believe I'm the one who is correct.

 

[mikesw]

You crack me up on this site. You don't say, well... I disagree. Or I do not understand how you can come to the concept that you do. Or I believe you are wrong. You instead say you have proven me wrong. Like only you can be right and it's not possible that I can. And the hilarious part here is that I believe I'm the one who is correct.

you have proven yourself to be biased against Christ and wrong in so many ways. It is like a broken record when you repeat the same wrong things. You share a new, novel, private, gnostic interpretation but somehow think people should accept that as true when based on weak, unsustainable arguments.
If you had anything convincing, people would have shifted over to your side by now.

 

[Peterlag]

Mike, there is no bias man. There just isn't a trinity. Sorry, but that's how it is. Don't you think Jesus did a God job at declaring who God is? If God is a trinity why didn't Jesus correct anyone if they were so wrong? Why did Jesus only ever go around talking about his God and their God, calling God his Father, only ever teaching about worshipping and praying to the Father?

At some point it's time to get a clue and wise up. The only true God is the Father.... indeed it's true.

Don't think of it as a personal slight against you. It's ok to be deceived and correct the course once you've found the truth, but to just continue in denials is not good. You do want the truth don't you?

and by the way, I can do through every single last one of Jesus' teachings and show you how God is the Father, but never described as a trinity. Why do I rarely do that? Because can you believe any of it if you are not even ready for the milk of the word? You have been given straight, simple, milk so far and you aren't even ready for that yet. You needs prayer.

cc: @Peterlag

I put this on the Internet today...​

This is not Rocket Science...​

When the Scripture refers to God speaking. He says Jesus is His son.

When the Scripture refers to Jesus speaking. He says God is his Father.

 

[mikesw]

I put this on the Internet today...​

This is not Rocket Science...​

When the Scripture refers to God speaking. He says Jesus is His son.

When the Scripture refers to Jesus speaking. He says God is his Father.

Indeed. Father and Son of the same essence. That is quite normal. You make a few true statements but then mess them up later on and outright deny what they say.

 

[mikesw]

Duhh. Why would most Jews even be thinking about the Two Powers in Heaven? I'm not sure what you are trying to convey in saying the obvious?
But now you are denying that Jesus is the Son. So you contradict everything in scripture. You get more confused as you share more of your ideas.

My comment about "most Jews" just reflects how fewer people would get into scripture into such detail that the two powers interaction with each other would be noticed. Even if it were, only certain Jews would have the influence to become represented in writing in the dispute.

 

[Runningman]

The Jews were all wrong. I think you missed the very fact that Jesus said they did not know God. That is the problem in your analysis. You miss too much detail and arrive at the wrong doctrines.
It does not matter what you find or say about the trinity concept. You have to reject the passages of Christ's divinity and pre-existence in divine form in order that you create a unitarian doctrine. You have failed to make sufficient arguments against the deity of Christ. As such your new, novel, private doctrine does not sustain itself in your arguments.

It's sad seeing people in such deep denial, especially those who claim to believe the Bible.

You don't see Jesus affirming who they their God is as the Father here? He directly says his Father is who they say their God is. He's agreeing with them, contrary to them not knowing God and Jesus didn't correct them. The Jews knew who God is, but they didn't know Him on the personal level Jesus as His sons.

John 8
54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory means nothing. The One who glorifies Me is My Father, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55You do not know Him, but I know Him. If I said I did not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him, and I keep His word.

 

[mikesw]

It's sad seeing people in such deep denial, especially those who claim to believe the Bible.

You don't see Jesus affirming who they their God is as the Father here? He directly says his Father is who they say their God is. He's agreeing with them, contrary to them not knowing God and Jesus didn't correct them. The Jews knew who God is, but they didn't know Him on the personal level Jesus as His sons.

John 8
54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory means nothing. The One who glorifies Me is My Father, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55You do not know Him, but I know Him. If I said I did not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him, and I keep His word.

Jesus says they do not know God. Jesus says they do not know God. Jesus says they do not know God. Jesus says they do not know God.
This just shows the Father of Jesus is the Father. Sons have fathers. The Son of God of course is the son of the Father. This makes Jesus's essence the same as the Father.

Okay. the added detail is that Jesus is not going around saying "Let Runningman hear me when I say I am the Son of God having all the essence of God." No. Jesus is going as the Prophet among them, as a human. Jesus is human. and Jesus is deity

 

[Runningman]

Jesus says they do not know God. Jesus says they do not know God. Jesus says they do not know God. Jesus says they do not know God.
This just shows the Father of Jesus is the Father. Sons have fathers. The Son of God of course is the son of the Father. This makes Jesus's essence the same as the Father.

Okay. the added detail is that Jesus is not going around saying "Let Runningman hear me when I say I am the Son of God having all the essence of God." No. Jesus is going as the Prophet among them, as a human. Jesus is human. and Jesus is deity

Many people can know who God is. Even atheists know that the Christian God is the Father and Jesus is His son, but none of them can truly know them on the personal level Jesus explained they should in the gospels. God is YHWH the Father, He alone created the heavens and earths, there are no others God's aside from Him. Scripture explicitly says so. Jesus is God's son and servant, just like so many others, but Jesus is glorified, exalted, resurrected, and empowered, yet a human nonetheless. Scripture explicitly says so. The issue is you don't really believe it. Like so many others here, when the tough gets going with the Bible, you just make up an interpretation that fits the narrative of the trinity, even though the trinity is never mentioned in the Bible. Plain ole eisegesis.

 

[mikesw]

Many people can know who God is. Even atheists know that the Christian God is the Father and Jesus is His son, but none of them can truly know them on the personal level Jesus explained they should in the gospels. God is YHWH the Father, He alone created the heavens and earths, there are no others God's aside from Him. Scripture explicitly says so. Jesus is God's son and servant, just like so many others, but Jesus is glorified, exalted, resurrected, and empowered, yet a human nonetheless. Scripture explicitly says so. The issue is you don't really believe it. Like so many others here, when the tough gets going with the Bible, you just make up an interpretation that fits the narrative of the trinity, even though the trinity is never mentioned in the Bible. Plain ole eisegesis.

I'll repeat the phrase for you from verse 55You do not know Him, but I know Him.

Obviously you miss the second verse you posted.

 

[Runningman]

I'll repeat the phrase for you from verse 55You do not know Him, but I know Him.

Obviously you miss the second verse you posted.

Jesus affirmed that Jews had correctly identified who God is contrary to them not knowing Him. That changes everything. Why? Because there is no mysterious trinity in view here because the Jews didn't believe in a trinity, yet they correctly know God is the Father, even if in name only, without a relationship.

 

[Runningman]

I put this on the Internet today...​

This is not Rocket Science...​

When the Scripture refers to God speaking. He says Jesus is His son.

When the Scripture refers to Jesus speaking. He says God is his Father.

What do you think of this?

God alone is a You, He, Him, His, I, but when God is with other persons God it becomes a we.

Jesus equated the Father to God and referred to God as a He, Him, meaning God is one person.

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

Jesus being with God becomes a we. God is one person, Jesus is another person.

John 14
23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.

 

[mikesw]

Jesus affirmed that Jews had correctly identified who God is contrary to them not knowing Him. That changes everything. Why? Because there is no mysterious trinity in view here because the Jews didn't believe in a trinity, yet they correctly know God is the Father, even if in name only, without a relationship.

this is not said to share the trinity. why are you purporting that?

 

[Peterlag]

What do you think of this?

God alone is a You, He, Him, His, I, but when God is with other persons God it becomes a we.

Jesus equated the Father to God and referred to God as a He, Him, meaning God is one person.

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

Jesus being with God becomes a we. God is one person, Jesus is another person.

John 14
23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.

The spirit of God that He sometimes calls the spirit of Christ is the same spirit. When you have it, you have both God and Christ's spirit in you since it's God in Christ in you.

I do both. I worship both.

23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.