Thomas... My Lord and my God

[amazing grace]

I would tend to agree with that too. However, there are details of Greek philosophy that come into play, especially when looking at articles sharing Philo's apologetic to the gentiles that appeals to them on the topic of logos. God has utilized Philo as this intermediary in revealing who Jesus is -- namely as the logos One becoming flesh, as shared in John 1. As to the gentiles who only knew the Greek philosophy on this, they had a sufficient background on the logos to just follow John's point. (I could suppose the logos concept of Greek philosophy had become familiar at various levels throughout the culture.)

I understand logos Christology - the logos being the word of God aka God's word and wisdom Christology - wisdom being the wisdom of God aka God's wisdom. Christ in whom, God's word and God's wisdom became flesh and as such the full expression of God became flesh in the man, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the Son of God, the Messiah.

 

[FreeInChrist]

You have only made the case for your beliefs, not debunk that the angel of the LORD is not the LORD, nor should you try.

Can you prove that the angel is not a messenger, contrary to explicitly being called a messenger, but rather YHWH Himself?

How do you know that the messenger of the LORD is not speaking messages for YHWH but rather speaking directly as YHWH?

How do you account for the messenger of the LORD and YHWH not being called the same names and titles with consistency?

I have given my old college try and that should be enough. I answered what you asked and now you are rewording things looking for a different answer????????????????

Your MO is always you keep basically asking the same thigs over and over again?

You know my beliefs....

Yor point Number 1 you say I have not not debunked that the angel of the LORD is not the LORD....

OF COURSE NOT BECAUSE WHAT I POSTED PROVES HE WAS/IS AND THAT IS WHAT I BELIEVE.

Your point # 2. Can you prove that the angel is not a messenger, contrary to explicitly being called a messenger, but rather YHWH Himself?...
Again...Well, I firmly believe what scripture says and I also believe in eye witnesses and if it is as Hagar felt... that is good enough for me.

Hagar calls Him “You are a God of seeing… Have I even remained alive after seeing Him?” She explicitly identifies the Angel as God/YHWH.

Your point #3. How do you know that the messenger of the LORD is not speaking messages for YHWH but rather speaking directly as YHWH?

Did Gideon not answer that for you?

“YHWH turned to him and said, ‘Go in this your strength…’” (the subject shifts seamlessly from the Angel to YHWH).

Gideon realizes “Alas, O Lord YHWH! For I have seen the Angel of YHWH face to face!”

“But YHWH said to him, ‘Peace…’” Again, the Angel is YHWH.
Point 4. How do you account for the messenger of the LORD and YHWH not being called the same names and titles with consistency?

I do not know. I really do not care because I would assume that different circumstance and different people would call for whatever would be appropriate.

 

[mikesw]

I understand logos Christology - the logos being the word of God aka God's word and wisdom Christology - wisdom being the wisdom of God aka God's wisdom. Christ in whom, God's word and God's wisdom became flesh and as such the full expression of God became flesh in the man, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the Son of God, the Messiah.

Wow. when understanding is ignorance. thanks for demonstrating that through your example. Read some more of Philo in relation to John 1. Go and study deeper. Just as a random starting point, you can read through: #logos-from-philo-of-alexandria-to-st-john-the-apostle-concept-of-logos/

 

[mikesw]

Jesus said "My Father, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’"

Who is "He is our God" referring to?
Who was Jesus referring to when he said "My Father?"

The Father is of the God that Jesus is One with. So they are both valid. Glad to help you.

Of course we know the Jews did not really know God because they had lost faith.

 

[Doug Brents]

When the Scripture refers to God speaking. He says Jesus is His son.
When the Scripture refers to Jesus speaking. He says God is his Father.

Who spoke to Moses from the burning bush?

 

[amazing grace]

Wow. when understanding is ignorance. thanks for demonstrating that through your example. Read some more of Philo in relation to John 1. Go and study deeper. Just as a random starting point, you can read through: #logos-from-philo-of-alexandria-to-st-john-the-apostle-concept-of-logos/

Your welcome!
Thanks but no thanks! I don't care to read more of Philo - I have read enough . . . so far this is what I have found:
Reddit: SabaziosZagreus - Jewish
Philo was not a Rabbinic Jew and has no influence on Jewish theology. Philo also was an innovator. Philo did not seek to describe Jewish theology, Philo actively sought to integrate Platonism and Judaism. In order to do this, God's transcendence needed to be pronounced. As such, an intermediary needed to take on more roles. Philo used the Greek concept of "Logos". Philo's theology was not Trinitarian or traditionally Jewish. Philo was a Platonist whose views are somewhat Gnostic. So why is he relevant?

Philo also does not affirm a Trinity. Philo describes the Logos by saying (Creation, 35):

Accordingly [Moses], when recording the creation of man, in words which follow, asserts expressly, that he was made in the image of God [...] It is manifest also, that the archetypal seal, which we call that world which is perceptible only to the intellect, must itself be the archetypal model, the idea of ideas, the Logos of God.

The Logos is the ideal "image of God" by which man is made. This is a Platonic dynamic.
Let's turn to Philo's supposed "Holy Spirit". What he really says is (Creation 134-135):

After this, Moses says that "God made man, having taken clay from the earth, and he breathed into his face the breath of life." And by this expression he shows most clearly that there is a vast difference between man as generated now, and the first man who was made according to the image of God [which is the Logos]. For man as formed now is perceptible to the external senses, partaking of qualities, consisting of body and soul, man or woman, by nature mortal. But man, made according to the image of God [which is the Logos], was an idea, or a genus, or a seal, perceptible only by the intellect, incorporeal, neither male nor female, imperishable by nature. But [Moses] asserts that the formation of the individual man, perceptible by the external senses is a composition of earthy substance, and divine spirit. For that the body was created by the Creator taking a lump of clay, and fashioning the human form out of it; but that the soul proceeds from no created thing at all, but from the Father and Ruler of all things. For when he uses the expression, "he breathed into," etc., he means nothing else than the divine spirit proceeding form that happy and blessed nature, sent to take up its habitation here on earth, for the advantage of our race, in order that, even if man is mortal according to that portion of him which is visible, he may at all events be immortal according to that portion which is invisible; and for this reason, one may properly say that man is on the boundaries of a better and an immortal nature, partaking of each as far as it is necessary for him; and that he was born at the same time, both mortal and the immortal. Mortal as to his body, but immortal as to his intellect.

Philo does not affirm an additional entity. Philo calls the breath of God a "divine spirit". This divine spirit is the manner in which individual men are part of the idealized man (the Logos). Philo does not affirm three persons. Philo affirms God and a Platonic Logos (who is the Image of God and the Ideal Man) whom every individual man is a realized material form of (which is very Platonic), and he justifies these Platonic notions by citing the breath of God which he refers to as a divine spirit. This divine spirit isn't a person or something separable, but something intimately connected to the concept of the Logos. Philo's immaterial Logos of the world of ideas, also, cannot incarnate as Jesus is said to have incarnated. It would be contrary to the nature of the philosophic Logos and Plato's theory of forms. Again, just because someone uses words you use doesn't entail the meaning is the same.

Plus, forgot to mention this, I have not heard reason to believe that Philo so much as believed in the concept of a Messiah. The belief in a coming Messiah was a belief found among the Pharisees, but not among all Jewish movements. Unless Philo expresses a belief in a coming Messiah, there's no reason to assume he had one.

Respond again with how ignorant my understanding is . . . .

 

[mikesw]

Your welcome!
Thanks but no thanks! I don't care to read more of Philo - I have read enough . . . so far this is what I have found:
Reddit: SabaziosZagreus - Jewish
Philo was not a Rabbinic Jew and has no influence on Jewish theology. Philo also was an innovator. Philo did not seek to describe Jewish theology, Philo actively sought to integrate Platonism and Judaism. In order to do this, God's transcendence needed to be pronounced. As such, an intermediary needed to take on more roles. Philo used the Greek concept of "Logos". Philo's theology was not Trinitarian or traditionally Jewish. Philo was a Platonist whose views are somewhat Gnostic. So why is he relevant?

Philo also does not affirm a Trinity. Philo describes the Logos by saying (Creation, 35):

The Logos is the ideal "image of God" by which man is made. This is a Platonic dynamic.
Let's turn to Philo's supposed "Holy Spirit". What he really says is (Creation 134-135):
. . .

Plus, forgot to mention this, I have not heard reason to believe that Philo so much as believed in the concept of a Messiah. The belief in a coming Messiah was a belief found among the Pharisees, but not among all Jewish movements. Unless Philo expresses a belief in a coming Messiah, there's no reason to assume he had one.

Respond again with how ignorant my understanding is . . . .

that is your endorsement of ignorance to reject what God has done providentially despite Philo not following the Messiah. So sure, I share again your ignorance. This connection with Philo and Greek philosophy is the only reason why John 1 would begin introducing Jesus in the fashion we are discussing. It does not require that Philo be correct on very much of anything.

Glad I could help you here.

 

[Runningman]

The Father is of the God that Jesus is One with. So they are both valid. Glad to help you.

Of course we know the Jews did not really know God because they had lost faith.

So when the Jews said "He is our God" they were referring to YHWH right? That's who all of the Jews said their God is. Jesus equated YHWH with the Father, but never a trinity. You must be getting super close to finally understanding the simplicity of Scripture. It would be very hard to not clearly understand this at this point unless one were deliberately trying to.

 

[amazing grace]

that is your endorsement of ignorance to reject what God has done providentially despite Philo not following the Messiah. So sure, I share again your ignorance. This connection with Philo and Greek philosophy is the only reason why John 1 would begin introducing Jesus in the fashion we are discussing. It does not require that Philo be correct on very much of anything.

Glad I could help you here.

The only way you have helped me is to steer me clear of Philo

My time is better spend in the written word God has preserved for us to gain an understanding and knowledge of Him and his Son.

 

[mikesw]

The only way you have helped me is to steer me clear of Philo

My time is better spend in the written word God has preserved for us to gain an understanding and knowledge of Him and his Son.

Good. If you learn truth, you might still mix combine errant teachings under the guise of knowing Christ.

If you think your novel, new, private belief is sufficient, you need to share this in a council with knowledgeable scholars and overseers to change broad doctrine. Instead, you just try sharing the weird views in little forums to persuade people away from the true gospel.

 

[mikesw]

So when the Jews said "He is our God" they were referring to YHWH right? That's who all of the Jews said their God is. Jesus equated YHWH with the Father, but never a trinity. You must be getting super close to finally understanding the simplicity of Scripture. It would be very hard to not clearly understand this at this point unless one were deliberately trying to.

No one said Jesus went around saying "we are a triune God." You should be aware of the stoning that would happen if he revealed his divinity while among the people.

 

[Runningman]

No one said Jesus went around saying "we are a triune God." You should be aware of the stoning that would happen if he revealed his divinity while among the people.

??

No. The Jews Jesus was speaking to didn't believe in the trinity. They believed in God, hence they said "He is our God" which Jesus said is his Father. The Jews were saying YHWH is their God, Jesus was saying the God they were referring to is the Father. YHWH is the Father, no Son involved at all.

John 8
54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory means nothing. The One who glorifies Me is My Father, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55You do not know Him, but I know Him. If I said I did not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him, and I keep His word.

 

[mikesw]

??

No. The Jews Jesus was speaking to didn't believe in the trinity. They believed in God, hence they said "He is our God" which Jesus said is his Father. The Jews were saying YHWH is their God, Jesus was saying the God they were referring to is the Father. YHWH is the Father, no Son involved at all.

John 8
54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory means nothing. The One who glorifies Me is My Father, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55You do not know Him, but I know Him. If I said I did not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him, and I keep His word.

Duhh. Why would most Jews even be thinking about the Two Powers in Heaven? I'm not sure what you are trying to convey in saying the obvious?
But now you are denying that Jesus is the Son. So you contradict everything in scripture. You get more confused as you share more of your ideas.

 

[TomL]

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colosians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colosians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

You have not addressed the points

Clearly He Jesus cannot be a non personal it



BTW all things were made by him and that eliminates the possibility of him being a thing.

And He is the radiance of the glory of God the exact representation of his nature


Heb 1:1–3God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Through whom (personal reality) he made the world

Clearly this is a physical creation

Importantly, can a non personal thing represent the nature of God?

Can it be The image of God?

Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

And it was by him, not it all things were created.

yet another refutation of your denial

2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Is God a non personal thing?

Is a non personal thing an image of God?

Is God himself a mere thing?

You have totally avoided addressing such

Philippians 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

He Christ existed in the form of a thing or in the form of God according to scripture?

Can a non personal thing exist in the form of God?

Such is an incredible impossibility/

The result is your claim of his existence as a thing is clearly unbiblical if you actually examine scripture.

And regarding the creation of all things

John 1:1–3In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Col 1:15–17He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Thrones and dominion rulers and authorities are a part of all things

We have seen him in the creation of the world yet another part of the all things He created


further
Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

A repetition: he created the world


John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

As in Col 1:15-17 we see by him are all things

A statement for which you have no denial.

Hebrews 1:10 (NASB 95) — 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

and yet again physical creation is scripturely affirmed



you are shown to be in error on the two fronts being addressed.

 

[TomL]

You can call it ignoring if that gives you pleasure and for a good reason. Because Revelation has nothing to do with the trinity or that Jesus is God or is written concerning Christians.

Indeed I will

We have one who is coming with clouds, one to whom is glory and dominion. He had been pierced.

Hello, Jesus, not the Father, had been pierced.

Revelation 1:6–8 (NASB 95) — 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
with

He who is to come is the Lord God, the almighty

Revelation 22:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. 16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

The coming one is the Lord Jesus.

The one pierced is Jesus Christ.

He is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end

So he is the coming one, God, the almighty.

 

[TomL]

All things were not made by Jesus and there's no Scripture that says Jesus made all things.

You are simply denying scripture and ignoring the point

BTW all things were made by him and that eliminates the possibility of him being a thing.

John 1:3 (NASB 95) — 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Seeing he Jesus, created the world and the world came into existence which apart from the above creator cannot be

Therefore he Jesus must be the creator of all things

And He is the radiance of the glory of God the exact representation of his nature

Heb 1:1–3God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Through whom (personal reality) he made the world

Importantly, can a non personal thing represent the nature of God?

You fail to answer

Can it be The image of God?

Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

And it was by him, not it all things were created.

2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Is God a non personal thing?

Is a non personal thing an image of God?

Is God himself a mere thing?

Philippians 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

He Christ existed in the form of a thing or in the form of God according to scripture?

Can a non personal thing exist in the form of God?

Such is an incredible impossibility

And so you avoid a reply

The result is Your claim of his existence as a thing is clearly unbiblical if you actually examine scripture.

And additionally, we see He created all things.

And you stand in error regarding both points being addressed.

 

[TomL]

I probably said this to you already and I know I have said it many times to others here. I don't go into the book of Revelation. So I don't know much about it. What I do know is the words “I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God” are not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. These words apply to God, not to Christ.

Proof otherwise seen below

Again you make a claim which does not address the fact

We have one who is coming with clouds, one to whom is glory and dominion. He had been pierced.

Hello, Jesus, not the Father, had been pierced.

Revelation 1:6–8 (NASB 95) — 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
with

He who is to come is the Lord God, the almighty

Revelation 22:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. 16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

The coming one is the Lord Jesus.

The one pierced is Jesus Christ.

He is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end

So he is the coming one, God, the almighty.

 

[TomL]

This is nonsense.

Let's recap where you went wrong:

The Bible distinguishes God from his angels. Angels are among the heavenly host and act as God's servants doing the will of God:

Psalm 103
20Bless the LORD, all His angels mighty in strength
who carry out His word,
who hearken to the voice of His command.
21Bless the LORD, all His hosts,
you servants who do His will.

So your entire premise is contradicted by a clear couple verses. How do you still make sense of what you wrote?

You failed to address the following

LOL there you go imagining support for your theology again

This is totally false, for we see

Yahweh sends Yahweh

Zechariah 2:8–13 (LEB) — 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me. 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for look, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares Yahweh. 11 “Many nations will join themselves to Yahweh on that day, and they will be my people, and I will dwell in your midst. And you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me to you. 12 And Yahweh will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and he will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all people, before Yahweh, for he is roused from his holy dwelling.”

You did not address this

Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the 3rd person

Exodus 19:20–25 (LEB) — 20 And Yahweh went down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain, and Yahweh called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 And Yahweh said to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, lest they break through to Yahweh to see and many from them fall. 22 And even the priests who come near Yahweh must consecrate themselves, lest Yahweh break out against them.” 23 And Moses said to Yahweh, “The people are not able to go up to Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, saying, ‘Set limits around the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 And Yahweh said to him, “Go, go down, and come up, you and Aaron with you and the priests, but the people must not break through to go up to Yahweh, lest he break out against them.” 25 And Moses went down to the people, and he told them.

You did not address this

Genesis 19:24 (UASV) — 24 Then Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven,

Jehovah (yahweh) who was on earth rained down fire from Jehovah (yahweh) in heaven

You did not address this

Jehovah God will make the following strong in Jehovah not in himself refering to the Jehovah he was making them strong in as those who walk in his name

Zechariah 10:6–12 (UASV) — 6 “I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back because I have compassion on them, and they shall be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Jehovah their God and I will answer them. 7 Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall rejoice as if from wine. Their sons shall see it and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in Jehovah. 8 “I will whistle for them and gather them in, for I have redeemed them, and they shall be as numerous as they were before. 9 Though I sow them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their sons they shall live and return. 10 I will bring them back from the land of Egypt, and gather them from Assyria, and I will bring them to the land of Gilead and to Lebanon, until there is no room for them. 11 And he shall pass through the sea of distress and strike down the waves of the sea, and all the depths of the Nile shall dry up. The pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart. 12 I will make them strong in Jehovah, and they shall walk in his name,” declares Jehovah.
You did not address this

Exodus 19:10–25 (NASB95) — 10 The Lord also said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments; 11 and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 “You shall set bounds for the people all around, saying, ‘Beware that you do not go up on the mountain or touch the border of it; whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. 13 ‘No hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot through; whether beast or man, he shall not live.’ When the ram’s horn sounds a long blast, they shall come up to the mountain.” 14 So Moses went down from the mountain to the people and consecrated the people, and they washed their garments. 15 He said to the people, “Be ready for the third day; do not go near a woman.” 16 So it came about on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently. 19 When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder. 20 The Lord came down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, so that they do not break through to the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish. 22 “Also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves, or else the Lord will break out against them.” 23 Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up to Mount Sinai, for You warned us, saying, ‘Set bounds about the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 Then the Lord said to him, “Go down and come up again, you and Aaron with you; but do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to the Lord, or He will break forth upon them.” 25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.

And we have a being who is sent by Yahweh God whose hand founded the earth and spread out the heaven

Isaiah 48:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

You did not address this

And we have Jesus who is stated to have created all things

John 1:1–3In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Heb 1:1–2God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
1 Cor 8:6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Hebrews 1:8–10 (NASB 95) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
John 1:10 (NASB 95) — 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

The angel of the Lord is called Yahweh

Exodus 3:2–15 (KJV 1900) — 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. 7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; 8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them. 10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt. 11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

And we see he who is the first and the last but sent by Yahweh God

Isaiah 48:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

Genesis 22:15–18 (NASB95) — 15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

Below the angel of the Lord calls himself the God of Bethel

Genesis 31:11–13 (NASB95) — 11 “Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 “He said, ‘Lift up now your eyes and see that all the male goats which are mating are striped, speckled, and mottled; for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. 13 ‘I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar, where you made a vow to Me; now arise, leave this land, and return to the land of your birth.’ ”

The angel of God declared himself the God of Bethel the God jacob made a vow to having also identified as Yahweh seen below

Genesis 28:18–22 (NASB 95) — 18 So Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on its top. 19 He called the name of that place Bethel; however, previously the name of the city had been Luz. 20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear, 21 and I return to my father’s house in safety, then the LORD (yahweh) will be my God. 22 This stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God’s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.”



Thus your claims are clearly refuted





Lets see You state Balaam can speak only the words God puts in his mouth

Numbers 22:26–35 (NASB 95) — 26 The angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place where there was no way to turn to the right hand or the left. 27 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam; so Balaam was angry and struck the donkey with his stick. 28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?” 29 Then Balaam said to the donkey, “Because you have made a mockery of me! If there had been a sword in my hand, I would have killed you by now.” 30 The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey on which you have ridden all your life to this day? Have I ever been accustomed to do so to you?” And he said, “No.” 31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way with his drawn sword in his hand; and he bowed all the way to the ground. 32 The angel of the LORD said to him, “Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out as an adversary, because your way was contrary to me. 33 But the donkey saw me and turned aside from me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, I would surely have killed you just now, and let her live.” 34 Balaam said to the angel of the LORD, “I have sinned, for I did not know that you were standing in the way against me. Now then, if it is displeasing to you, I will turn back.” 35 But the angel of the LORD said to Balaam, “Go with the men, but you shall speak only the word which I tell you.” So Balaam went along with the leaders of Balak.

But here is the Angel of the Lord telling him that he may only speak his words


So what? How does that address the fact

The Angel of the Lord appeared to her and she called the name of the lord who spoke to her A God who sees

Genesis 16:9–14 (NASB 95) — 9 Then the angel of the LORD said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself to her authority.” 10 Moreover, the angel of the LORD said to her, “I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count.” 11 The angel of the LORD said to her further, “Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction. 12 “He will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone’s hand will be against him; And he will live to the east of all his brothers.” 13 Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, “You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?” 14 Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.

BTW that Lord is Yahweh.

 

[Peterlag]

You are simply denying scripture and ignoring the point

BTW all things were made by him and that eliminates the possibility of him being a thing.

John 1:3 (NASB 95) — 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Seeing he Jesus, created the world and the world came into existence which apart from the above creator cannot be

Therefore he Jesus must be the creator of all things

And He is the radiance of the glory of God the exact representation of his nature

Heb 1:1–3God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Through whom (personal reality) he made the world

Importantly, can a non personal thing represent the nature of God?

You fail to answer

Can it be The image of God?

Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

And it was by him, not it all things were created.

2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Is God a non personal thing?

Is a non personal thing an image of God?

Is God himself a mere thing?

Philippians 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

He Christ existed in the form of a thing or in the form of God according to scripture?

Can a non personal thing exist in the form of God?

Such is an incredible impossibility

And so you avoid a reply

The result is Your claim of his existence as a thing is clearly unbiblical if you actually examine scripture.

And additionally, we see He created all things.

And you stand in error regarding both points being addressed.

Again, I already addressed this that you say I have not. Here are just two statements I gave and I will give them again here...

John 1:3 “Everything came to be through it.” The logos is an “it” not a “him.”

Translators have deliberately chosen to use “him” because they wanted to emphasize that the Word was the male person we know as Jesus. This was a theological choice, not a linguistic one.

"Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you” (Proverbs 4:6).

Is the Wisdom in Proverbs 4:6 a distinct divine person?

The "Word" is not literally a person for the same reason that "Wisdom" is not literally a person. Both are to be taken metaphorically.

Jesus is the personification of the Word because He speaks the words of God. To listen to Jesus equals listening to the Word of God.

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colosians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colosians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.

 

[Peterlag]

Who spoke to Moses from the burning bush?

Either God or an Angel. Depending on who's Bible you read.