Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Runningman]

It's the same with John 14:17

Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and “S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.” However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature.

Most English Bibles we could refer to as trinitarian Bibles. They will translate things inconsistently depending on the context. Another example is when Jesus is bowed to they call that worship, even though the same exact word is used of those who are not Jesus. They thusly translate the word as "bowing" or "kneeling down" instead of "worship" to fit theological assumptions. The way the trinitarians translate the Bible to project their assumptions, contrary to the Bible stating the Father is alone the true God, is malicious. I assume most of them are just highly indoctrinated and deceived, effectively blinded by careful manipulation, and there is certainly a dark spiritual component to trinitarianism as well.

 

[synergy]

So the Father alone is the true God. That excludes other persons. No need to be coy, I am sure you fully understand what is happening in John 17:1-3.

Nope. John 17:3 says "...You, the only true God...". Nowhere does it say "Father alone" or "You alone".

I know you know how to read, so you are definitely in denial.

 

[Runningman]

Nope. John 17:3 says "...You, the only true God...". Nowhere does it say "Father alone" or "You alone".

I know you know how to read, so you are definitely in denial.

John 17:1-3 says the Father is alone the true God. It's all in the Greek. Just showed it to you recently. You seem to think you can make it go away if you deny it long enough.

 

[synergy]

John 17:1-3 says the Father is alone the true God. It's all in the Greek. Just showed it to you recently. You seem to think you can make it go away if you deny it long enough.

Nope. John 17:3 says "...You, the only true God...". Nowhere does it say "Father is alone" or "You are alone".

You've already re-verification that the word "only" (or even your word "alone") acts only on the word "God" and that makes John 17:3 a Monotheistic statement, which Trinitarianism supports!

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming! You're doing a superb job!

 

[Runningman]

Nope. John 17:3 says "...You, the only true God...". Nowhere does it say "Father is alone" or "You are alone".

You've already re-verification that the word "only" (or even your word "alone") acts only on the word "God" and that makes John 17:3 a Monotheistic statement, which Trinitarianism supports!

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming! You're doing a superb job!

No. It literally plainly says that the Father is alone the true God. So trintiarianism has been debunked.

John 17
1When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

 

[synergy]

No. It literally plainly says that the Father is alone the true God. So trintiarianism has been debunked.

Nope. John 17:3 literally says "...You, the only true God...". Nowhere does it say "Father is alone" or "You are alone".

John 17
1When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Thank you for confirming that nowhere does John 17:3 say "Father is alone" or "You are alone". There's your proof.

In fact, the word "only" (or even your word "alone") acts only on the word "God" and that makes John 17:3 a Monotheistic statement, which Trinitarianism supports! Keep those Trinitarian verses coming! You continue to do a superb job!

 

[TomL]

It's the same with John 14:17

Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and “S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.” However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature.

You are ignoring the facts

Autos is a third person masculine pronoun and not neuter

appearing twice

John 1:3 (NA27) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν

Translations use him because the pronoun is masculine.

logos is also masculine.

Hello

We have "autos" masculine twice, and we have "logos" masculine

This is not the mismatch you bring up concerning the verse with the Holy Spirit.

And so your argument does nothing at all, affecting what is being addressed in the John verses.

 

[Runningman]

Nope. John 17:3 literally says "...You, the only true God...". Nowhere does it say "Father is alone" or "You are alone".

Thank you for confirming that nowhere does John 17:3 say "Father is alone" or "You are alone". There's your proof.

In fact, the word "only" (or even your word "alone") acts only on the word "God" and that makes John 17:3 a Monotheistic statement, which Trinitarianism supports! Keep those Trinitarian verses coming! You continue to do a superb job!

Yes, John 17:3 explicitly states the Father alone is the true God, not others. Monos means Alone. This rules out the trinity.

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

​

◄ 3441. monos ►​

​

​

​

Lexical Summary monos: Alone, only, solitary, single Original Word: μόνος Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: monos Pronunciation: MO-nos Phonetic Spelling: (mon'-os) KJV: alone, only, by themselves NASB: alone, only, just, merely, even, mere, only one Word Origin: [probably from G3306 (μένω - abides)] 1. remaining, i.e. sole or single 2. (by implication) mere​

​

 

[TomL]

No.

According to standard pronoun-antecedent agreement, the "Him" pronoun refers to the antecedent. In the context, the Word is not Creator, but rather the God the word is with.

Him refers to the last mentioned God which isn't the Word. The Word is not The God in John 1:1-3. Check out the Greek for the first few verses. Your argument doesn't jive with what it says.

John 1
2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

Sorry you have no understanding concerning pronoun antecedent agreement

The whole passage concerns Christ

John 1:1–5 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

He was in the beginning with God, (the father)

and so the He is Christ

He was with God, who is not the He

thus we have the he, him (masculine pronoun) and we have God

Further we have biblical confirmation he created all things

Colossians 1:16–17 (NASB 95) — 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

 

[TomL]

Ditto

It's rather obvious if one is open to truth

 

[civic]

Sorry you have no understanding concerning pronoun antecedent agreement

The whole passage concerns Christ

John 1:1–5 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

He was in the beginning with God, (the father)

and so the He is Christ

He was with God, who is not the He

thus we have the he, him (masculine pronoun) and we have God

Further we have biblical confirmation he created all things

Colossians 1:16–17 (NASB 95) — 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Amen

 

[Runningman]

Sorry you have no understanding concerning pronoun antecedent agreement

The whole passage concerns Christ

John 1:1–5 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

He was in the beginning with God, (the father)

and so the He is Christ

He was with God, who is not the He

thus we have the he, him (masculine pronoun) and we have God

Further we have biblical confirmation he created all things

Colossians 1:16–17 (NASB 95) — 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Yes I got it correct. Did you notice in John 1:1-3 that there is a different between theos and Ton Theon? The Word is not The God, but The God is the Creator.

 

[TomL]

So you seem to finally be recognizing that without trinitarian words and philosophy, the trinity cannot be found in the Bible?

You obviously have no clue about recognizing what he is saying.

 

[TomL]

I think you are confusing your religion with Scripture. In the Bible, Jesus isn't God or the Creator. The Bible explcitly says Jesus is created and a man, there are no instructions to worship or pray to Jesus.

You are obviously in error

Colossians 1:16–17 (NASB 95) — 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Christ clearly is the creator here.

 

[synergy]

Yes, John 17:3 explicitly states the Father alone is the true God, not others. Monos means Alone. This rules out the trinity.

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Nope. John 17:3 explicitly says "...You, the only true God...". Nowhere does it say "Father alone" or even "You alone". Thank you for providing the proof.

In fact, the word "only" (or even your word "alone") acts only on the word "God" and that makes John 17:3 a Monotheistic statement, which Trinitarianism supports! Keep those Trinitarian verses coming! You continue to do a superb job!

 

[mikesw]

Nope. John 17:3 explicitly says "...You, the only true God...". Nowhere does it say "Father alone" or even "You alone". Thank you for providing the proof.

In fact, the word "only" (or even your word "alone") acts only on the word "God" and that makes John 17:3 a Monotheistic statement, which Trinitarianism supports! Keep those Trinitarian verses coming! You continue to do a superb job!

Runningman has to use an English word that does not fit in the context simply so he can twist the meaning.

 

[synergy]

Runningman has to use an English word that does not fit in the context simply so he can twist the meaning.

He is either maliciously doing that or he needs a new pair of glasses. Only he can answer that.

 

[TomL]

Yes I got it correct. Did you notice in John 1:1-3 that there is a different between theos and Ton Theon? The Word is not The God, but The God is the Creator.

Afraid not

Sorry you have no understanding concerning pronoun antecedent agreement

The whole passage concerns Christ

John 1:1–5 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

He was in the beginning with God, (the father)

and so the He is Christ

He was with God, who is not the He

thus we have the he, him (masculine pronoun) and we have God

Further we have biblical confirmation he created all things

Colossians 1:16–17 (NASB 95) — 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

BTW you will find multiple verses/sections using Theos with and without the article still referring to the same person

John 1:6–13 (NIV) — 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The ton does not appear before of the noun I bolded

So according to you john was sent by other than the God

Those who believe are not children of the God

And not born of the God

Oh btw you have the world not created by the God

 

[Runningman]

Nope. John 17:3 explicitly says "...You, the only true God...". Nowhere does it say "Father alone" or even "You alone". Thank you for providing the proof.

In fact, the word "only" (or even your word "alone") acts only on the word "God" and that makes John 17:3 a Monotheistic statement, which Trinitarianism supports! Keep those Trinitarian verses coming! You continue to do a superb job!

This is getting funny. You actually deny that the word only means Alone as per the explicit definition of the word? I have seen people argue obscure things, but denying undeniable things is a new low. Scripture is bigger than your religion and who you feel God is. God is the Father, who alone is the true God just as Jesus said.

 

[synergy]

This is getting funny. You actually deny that the word only means Alone as per the explicit definition of the word? I have seen people argue obscure things, but denying undeniable things is a new low. Scripture is bigger than your religion and who you feel God is. God is the Father, who alone is the true God just as Jesus said.

Where did you ever get the idea that I'm denying that the word "only" can mean alone? You are totally out to lunch man. This is hilarious. You are coming up with any possible hair-brained idea hoping to save face. You've definitely lost it.

Several of us have confirmed that you are either maliciously inserting an English word where it is not present in John 17:3 (next to "You") or you are in need of a new pair of glasses. So which is it? Only you can answer that.