Thomas... My Lord and my God

[mikesw]

I don't feel a verse says anything. I have excellent reading comprehension and I know English grammar quite well. I don't impose any theological assumptions on it because I didn't write it. I do prefer what the Bible literally says over a completely absent trinity.

haha. thanks for confirming that you feel like what you interpreted is the plain and only meaning despite the passages that show insight beyond your views. You have learned this hyperliteralist reading that restricts you from understanding scripture at even a basic level.

If you could find a good argument for your view and convince capable scholars and theologians, you might have a bit of basis to accept your new, novel, gnostic belief. No one on his own should be pushing his private doctrines on people when they are so contrary to sound teaching.

 

[TomL]

You just provided the proof that Jesus was created. Read it again. He isn't God buddy.

Neither verse did so

John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

Rather, they do the opposite, as all things were made by him. And to Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power and wisdom of God.

 

[Peterlag]

Neither verse did so

John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

Rather, they do the opposite, as all things were made by him. And to Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power and wisdom of God.

John 1:3 “Everything came to be through it.” The logos is an “it” not a “him.”

Translators have deliberately chosen to use “him” because they wanted to emphasize that the Word was the male person we know as Jesus. This was a theological choice, not a linguistic one.

"Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you” (Proverbs 4:6).

Is the Wisdom in Proverbs 4:6 a distinct divine person?

The "Word" is not literally a person for the same reason that "Wisdom" is not literally a person. Both are to be taken metaphorically.

Jesus is the personification of the Word because He speaks the words of God. To listen to Jesus equals listening to the Word of God.

People often say I'm wrong when I post this because they say I looked it up in an Interlinear or Concordance and it shows the word is a "him" and not an "it." Those reference books show how the Bible translates a word and not what the Greek actually means. The pronoun is an "it" when it refers to an inanimate noun like the "Word" because Greek has grammatical gender and the "Word" in John 1 is a thing so the Greek says it's an "it."

Here's a partial list of how "logos" is translated in the New Testament...

cause, communication, sayings, saying, word, words, account, talk, question, treatise, intent, tidings, speaker, matter, mouth, work, utterance, preaching, speech, concerning, show, do, doctrine, reason, with, and thing.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

 

[Runningman]

haha. thanks for confirming that you feel like what you interpreted is the plain and only meaning despite the passages that show insight beyond your views. You have learned this hyperliteralist reading that restricts you from understanding scripture at even a basic level.

If you could find a good argument for your view and convince capable scholars and theologians, you might have a bit of basis to accept your new, novel, gnostic belief. No one on his own should be pushing his private doctrines on people when they are so contrary to sound teaching.

No one of any authority or standing believed what you do in Scripture. They believed God is the Father alone, which is what they explicitly stated. I agree with them, you don't.

 

[Runningman]

Neither verse did so

John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

Rather, they do the opposite, as all things were made by him. And to Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power and wisdom of God.

Who is the "him" in John 1:3? Look at John 1:2 to see who the Him refers to. In the context, the last mentioned God isn't the Word. Uh oh! Looks like the Word isn't the Creator. Wow, nothing in the Bible says Jesus or the Word is the Creator.

 

[synergy]

No one of any authority or standing believed what you do in Scripture. They believed God is the Father alone, which is what they explicitly stated. I agree with them, you don't.

Everyone of authority believe both John 1:1 and John 17:3 together. The Word and the Father are both the only true God. Nobody believes your "Father alone" unitarian heresy.

 

[mikesw]

No one of any authority or standing believed what you do in Scripture. They believed God is the Father alone, which is what they explicitly stated. I agree with them, you don't.

whoa. You take a verse like John 17:3 and twist it so much to have the idea totally off. The passage shows Jesus speaking to the Father as the only true God -- not if he is alone or lonely -- but that other gods are false and that Jews did not know the true God. When you try to reverse and contort the passage, it hardly convinces of any authenticity in your beliefs.

 

[Runningman]

Everyone of authority believe both John 1:1 and John 17:3 together. The Word and the Father are both the only true God. Nobody believes your "Father alone" unitarian heresy.

John 17:1-3 says the Father alone is the true God. I know you know how to read, you must be in denial.

 

[Runningman]

whoa. You take a verse like John 17:3 and twist it so much to have the idea totally off. The passage shows Jesus speaking to the Father as the only true God -- not if he is alone or lonely -- but that other gods are false and that Jews did not know the true God. When you try to reverse and contort the passage, it hardly convinces of any authenticity in your beliefs.

John 17:1-3 is still there. You can't make it go away. The trinity has been disproven. This is exactly why there is nothing in the Bible that describes God as a trinity. Piecing verses together isn't how exegesis works.

 

[mikesw]

John 17:1-3 is still there. You can't make it go away. The trinity has been disproven. This is exactly why there is nothing in the Bible that describes God as a trinity. Piecing verses together isn't how exegesis works.

How does speaking of the true God discount who the true Triune God is? You pretend that you have made an argument here but show a total misconception of the verses.
It is not even those verses that introduce the deity of Christ that we find in JOhn 1. Your argument is superfluous

 

[Runningman]

How does speaking of the true God discount who the true Triune God is? You pretend that you have made an argument here but show a total misconception of the verses.
It is not even those verses that introduce the deity of Christ that we find in JOhn 1. Your argument is superfluous

There is no triune god mentioned in the Bible. You are arguing for something that doesn't even exist. Stick with what the Bible says about God, who alone is the Father, and you'll be fine.

 

[mikesw]

There is no triune god mentioned in the Bible. You are arguing for something that doesn't even exist. Stick with what the Bible says about God, who alone is the Father, and you'll be fine.

the problem is that Jesus is shown also to be God and the Holy Spirit is distinct as God too.

 

[Runningman]

the problem is that Jesus is shown also to be God and the Holy Spirit is distinct as God too.

No one ever described God as triune in the Bible. Never. It shouldn't even be up for debate or discussion.

 

[mikesw]

No one of any authority or standing believed what you do in Scripture. They believed God is the Father alone, which is what they explicitly stated. I agree with them, you don't.

That is stupid too. Plenty people of authority hold to the Triune God. You have some narrow view of the world -- missing most of it.

 

[Runningman]

That is stupid too. Plenty people of authority hold to the Triune God. You have some narrow view of the world -- missing most of it.

There's more people who believe other things than there are those who believe in the triune god heresy. This isn't a numbers game, but rather it's about the truth. The Bible is what we Christians use to understand who God and it never describes Him as a trinity.

 

[mikesw]

There's more people who believe other things than there are those who believe in the triune god heresy. This isn't a numbers game, but rather it's about the truth. The Bible is what we Christians use to understand who God and it never describes Him as a trinity.

So you side with the Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus rather than with scripture.

I also have noted that we do not have to discuss the Trinity. You just have to deny Christ's divinity sufficiently. But that cannot be done from scriptures. They testify against you.

 

[Runningman]

So you side with the Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus rather than with scripture.

I also have noted that we do not have to discuss the Trinity. You just have to deny Christ's divinity sufficiently. But that cannot be done from scriptures. They testify against you.

No, but trinitarianism is a very minority belief about who God is in all of history. Are you saying the billions and billions of Jews, including Jesus, the Father, and scripture are false and your religion is correct? That is delusional. Scripture states God is the Father, it never describes a trinity.

 

[mikesw]

No, but trinitarianism is a very minority belief about who God is in all of history. Are you saying the billions and billions of Jews, including Jesus, the Father, and scripture are false and your religion is correct? That is delusional. Scripture states God is the Father, it never describes a trinity.

That is ignorant. Jesus is not revealed as deity until John 1. It is an insignificant thing that they did not hear about Jesus until the first century AD. We can even avoid the T word and just recognize the deity of Christ on its own standing. That has been demonstrated in John 1 and other places. If you can return to the recognition of the deity of Christ, angels of God will celebrate.

 

[mikesw]

I don't really see myself as one to make arguments. I just explain what the Bible says. I am not really asking anyone to agree, but I will defend what is written. I also don't view denials, rejections, and arguments as something that debunks the Bible. I am not sure if you thought you could make me think the Bible is false or not, but it won't work.

I do not have to make you think whether the Bible is true or false. You just reject the message.

One of the constants I believe in is that people cannot refute Scripture. So anything you say, I don't see as a surprise. I know your MO is to try to debunk Scripture and supplant it with your philosophy and idol. So I just stay focused on what the Bible says.

You still refute the testimony of scripture. You pretend you are interpreting it. Instead you are explaining away the meaning such that the text is meaningless in your interpretation. It is this weird Christadelphian claim that they read the scriptures directly but everyone else who ever has lived before the 19th century was totally wrong.

 

[synergy]

John 17:1-3 says the Father alone is the true God. I know you know how to read, you must be in denial.

Nope. John 17:3 says "...You, the only true God...". Nowhere does it say "Father alone" or "You alone".

I know you know how to read, so you are definitely in denial.