Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Peterlag]

@Peterlag is afraid to debate the one person who has been after him for months and months to debate.View attachment 2198

@Peterlag is afraid to even mention his name.View attachment 2200

Shame, shame, shame......................... View attachment 2199

Who am I afraid of?

 

[Runningman]

You seem to feel that Jesus gave up being visibly and outwardly holy and righteous so that he could become a terrorist and a liar and a deceiver.

Well both are wrong. But you were saying Jesus gave up holiness and righteousness. You are saying he gave up godly characteristics. That was not my interpretation. Your suggestion leaves Jesus as living a sinful life instead.

The words that Jesus is a terrorist, liar, and deceiver came from your head and heart. Not mine. This reflects on you.

 

[mikesw]

The words that Jesus is a terrorist, liar, and deceiver came from your head and heart. Not mine. This reflects on you.

You are quite wrong. I am not the one saying Jesus gave up holiness or Messiahship as if that were something logical for him to give up.

 

[Runningman]

Oy vey!!!!!

You do not even know why He emptied himself.

The common teaching on this is

When Philippians 2:7 states that Jesus "emptied himself" by taking on the form of a servant and being made in human likeness, highlighting His humility and willingness to serve others. This verse emphasizes the significance of Jesus' incarnation and His choice to live among humanity. ( From Bible Hub)

But it truly is not that simple.


Phil 2:7

Jesus did the SELF_EMPTYING by His own volition. It was not taken from Him voluntarily gave up His divine privileges.

This is known as "kenosis," highlighting His humility and willingness to serve.

Defining the term that you likely do not know from the American Heritage Dictionery

noun​

1. The relinquishment of some of the attributes of God by Jesus in becoming man and suffering death.
2. Christ's voluntary divestment of his divine powers.

This just shows Jesus took on the "form of a servant," indicating His choice to live a life of humility and service rather than one of power and authority.

Do you want more?

There is a very large Theological Significance in what he did..... and make no mistake He did it for you, and me and the world at large ,even if it was regional at the time.... although most will have failed to accept Him on any count.

Take His incarnation.... This is where Jesus, while fully divine, became fully human.

WHY did this have to happen? Simply to emphasize His connection to humanity.

Phil 2: 6-8
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, ( people would not understand)

7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Why? Because He chose to become a servant, demonstrating the depth of His love and commitment to humanity.

I'll stop now because you either understand or not.

​

Let's make it easy to read the Bible: don't add to it, don't take away from it. Pretty standard rule even in trinitarian circles, right? Doug said in a previous post, "He did, in fact, empty Himself of His glory, the independent use of His power, His knowledge, His authority, etc. when He came to Earth as a man." [sic]

So actually, what Doug said is never stated in the Bible. Trinitarianism relies too heavily on opinions, but aren't opinions an addition to the Bible? Keep your opinions the same as those who are in Scripture and you'll see what it says more clearly.

 

[Runningman]

You are quite wrong. I am not the one saying Jesus gave up holiness or Messiahship as if that were something logical for him to give up.

Bad logic and reason, again, from you.

 

[mikesw]

Bad logic and reason, again, from you.

Maybe you have a better explanation of the passage than you tried so far.

 

[Runningman]

Maybe you have a better explanation of the passage than you tried so far.

Already said what "form of God" means. I said "Form of God refers to Jesus being visibly and outwardly holy and righteous. Being holy as God is holy isn't just for Jesus, but for everyone. I hope you believe that at least." because morphē in Phil 2:6 means the form, shape, or outward appearance. Oh wait, perhaps that's too literal for you.

 

[mikesw]

Already said what "form of God" means. I said "Form of God refers to Jesus being visibly and outwardly holy and righteous. Being holy as God is holy isn't just for Jesus, but for everyone. I hope you believe that at least." because morphē in Phil 2:6 means the form, shape, or outward appearance. Oh wait, perhaps that's too literal for you.

that is nonsense. It is not logical. It is not backed by any other idea in scripture. You are too desperate to deny the divinity of Christ here. You rejected the implications of your interpretation that I had exposed, thus rejecting your own view.

 

[Doug Brents]

Already said what "form of God" means. I said "Form of God refers to Jesus being visibly and outwardly holy and righteous. Being holy as God is holy isn't just for Jesus, but for everyone. I hope you believe that at least." because morphē in Phil 2:6 means the form, shape, or outward appearance. Oh wait, perhaps that's too literal for you.

This verse is not referring to Jesus after His incarnation. It says that He was in the form of God BEFORE He left Heaven and was incarnate.

Now, would you care to try again?

 

[mikesw]

This verse is not referring to Jesus after His incarnation. It says that He was in the form of God BEFORE He left Heaven and was incarnate.T

Now, would you care to try again?

Their answers actually confirm the recognition of the divinity of Christ in the Godhead since nothing else makes sense other than relating the verse to his having of divine essence. However, it certainly is not about shedding his goodness or righteousness.

 

[TibiasDad]

Doug said in a previous post, "He did, in fact, empty Himself of His glory,

Phil 2:5Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,7but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

John 17:5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

the independent use of His power,

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does…30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

His knowledge,

Matt 24:36 But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

His authority, etc. when He came to Earth as a man." [sic]

By authority, I mean independent from the Father as a human being. He became obedient to death, and did not, as the giver of life, choose to live.

So actually, what Doug said is never stated in the Bible.

I beg to differ…

Doug

 

[Doug Brents]

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[Titus]

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I want you to know I have been deceived.
Danthemailman and Eternally Grateful have taught me the truth.
I now know the truth.
Jesus' gospel really is salvation by faith alone.

You can read my explanation how I realized they are correct here :
James teaching on justification, before God or before men. Post # 430.
You also need to learn the truth.

 

[Doug Brents]

I want you to know I have been deceived.
Danthemailman and Eternally Grateful have taught me the truth.

You have been deceived all right, by those two.

I now know the truth.
Jesus' gospel really is salvation by faith alone.

You are right, if you properly understand faith. Their concept of faith is nothing more than intellectual assent. Read John 12:42.

You can read my explanation how I realized they are correct here :
James teaching on justification, before God or before men. Post # 430.
You also need to learn the truth.

I know the truth, my friend. And it is not what Dan and EG promote.

 

[Titus]

You have been deceived all right, by those two.

You are right, if you properly understand faith. Their concept of faith is nothing more than intellectual assent. Read John 12:42.

I know the truth, my friend. And it is not what Dan and EG promote.

You have been deceived by a works based salvation.
You cannot work your way to heaven. Wink, wink.

 

[Doug Brents]

You cannot work your way to heaven. Wink, wink.

That is very true.

 

[Doug Brents]

You have been deceived by a works based salvation.
You cannot work your way to heaven. Wink, wink.

My apologies. I see what you mean.

 

[Titus]

My apologies. I see what you mean.

No apology needed.

 

[Runningman]

Phil 2:5Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,7but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Philippians 2:5-8 is a teaching about how to have the mind of Jesus. Paul didn't say Jesus emptied himself of a pre-existent glory.

John 17:5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

This doesn't refer to a literal pre-existent glory because the context says the glory Jesus was requesting pertained to what he did on earth. Jesus didn't do what he did on earth before he was on earth.

John 17
4I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does…30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

There's no indication that Jesus was ever not dependent on God.

Matt 24:36 But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

There's no indication that Jesus was ever omniscient.

By authority, I mean independent from the Father as a human being. He became obedient to death, and did not, as the giver of life, choose to live.



I beg to differ…

Doug

Bad exegesis.

 

[TibiasDad]

Philippians 2:5-8 is a teaching about how to have the mind of Jesus. Paul didn't say Jesus emptied himself of a pre-existent glory.

Yes, but it shows what that mindset was for him: to willing lay aside the reality of “being in very nature God” to “empty himself” of the rights and privileges being God, in order to become like us, live like us, and love us in our reality and circumstance.

The glory of being fully spiritual is not possible in natural human form. The glory of a spiritual body that can encapsulate the glory that he shared with the Father before creation began.

This doesn't refer to a literal pre-existent glory because the context says the glory Jesus was requesting pertained to what he did on earth. Jesus didn't do what he did on earth before he was on earth.

4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.

This is not Jesus’s glory, but the Father’s given by Jesus “by finishing the work you gave me to do.”


5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence…

Now Jesus is asking the Father to glorify “me”, Jesus, “in your presence”, that is to say personally by, and in proximity to the Father.

The next question is, with what should the Father glorify Jesus? Answer:

“…with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

First, the reference point is “before the world began”, ie, pre creation or eternity past. This is the same reference point that John uses in Jn 1:1, “In the beginning”, that is that moment just before “Let there be light” was proclaimed into the darkness!

This Jesus, the Word, was existent in eternity before creation, and the only thing that can exist in eternity is God! This leads to the next point, the only glory in eternity is the glory of God, and the glory of each member of the Godhead is equal in every way.

This is why Jesus said, “…with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

It was a singular and shared glory they all had in their natural state of existence. And now he is asking to have it returned to him.

Doug