Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Peterlag]

You see scripture in a twisted way, so it is unwise to give much credit to your false "interpretation".

More on Hebrews 1:8...

“Your throne is God.” Hebrews 1:8 is an almost exact quotation from the Septuagint version of Psalm 45:6, which itself was a very good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:9 is from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:7, which is a good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:7. Psalm 45:6 was God’s revelation to the Jews about their king, and here in Hebrews, Psalm 45:6-7 is being used to show that Jesus Christ is indeed God’s Messiah as was foretold in the Old Testament. Furthermore, not only was Jesus foretold to be the exalted king, he is presented in Hebrews as being better than angels (Hebrews 1:4). The theme of Hebrews 1 centers around the Father’s rule and elevation of the Son over the rest of creation. God spoke through the prophets, and then through His Son, who He appointed heir of all things and who is now seated at God’s right hand as second in command under God.

The Son has become better than the angels, who pay homage to him. The angels are ministers of God, but God Himself is the Son’s authority to rule, and God—the God of the Son—anointed him and set him above his companions, such that the Son now sits on God’s right hand. Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalm 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. To see that fully, one must study Psalm 45. Upon examination, Psalm 45 does not support the Trinity, so when it is quoted in Hebrews 1:8 then that quotation does not support the Trinity either. The Jews read Psalm 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God. But beyond that, it is clear in Psalm 45 that the person who is the subject of the Psalm is not God, but is a human being.

 

[TomL]

But I have addressed it. You need to stop saying I'm not responding or I'm ignoring or I'm not addressing it and start saying I don't like how you addressed it or I don't agree with how you addressed it. Here it is again...

“Everything came to be through it.” The logos is an “it” not a “him.” God made everything through and according to His logos, His plan and purpose, and with wisdom. The logos was God’s plan and purpose especially as it was put into action.

John 1:3 (LEB) — 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

αὐτός - he

sorry but you are in error



Colossians 1:13–18 (LEB) — 13 who has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have the redemption, the forgiveness of sins, 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together, 18 and he himself is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in everything,

Hebrews 1:7–10 (LEB) — 7 And concerning the angels he says, “The one who makes his angels winds, and his servants a flame of fire,” 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, your God, has anointed you with the olive oil of joy more than your companions. 10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands;

1 Corinthians 8:6 (LEB) — 6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we are for him, and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through him.


Phil 2:6 was created to show personal pre-existence an issue which you have denied but do not deal with

as typical, you ignore scripture which points to Christ's previous existence as a personal being

further, you just deny all the verses showing he created all things, posting your ideas while ignoring scripture.

That is serious denial.

 

[Peterlag]

John 1:3 (LEB) — 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

αὐτός - he

sorry but you are in error

View attachment 1650

Colossians 1:13–18 (LEB) — 13 who has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have the redemption, the forgiveness of sins, 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together, 18 and he himself is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in everything,

Hebrews 1:7–10 (LEB) — 7 And concerning the angels he says, “The one who makes his angels winds, and his servants a flame of fire,” 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, your God, has anointed you with the olive oil of joy more than your companions. 10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands;

1 Corinthians 8:6 (LEB) — 6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we are for him, and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through him.


Phil 2:6 was created to show personal pre-existence an issue which you have denied but do not deal with

as typical, you ignore scripture which points to Christ's previous existence as a personal being

further, you just deny all the verses showing he created all things, posting your ideas while ignoring scripture.

That is serious denial.

Here's another one where the translators translated "it" to "him"...

Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and “S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.”

However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature. One of the ways we know that “pneuma hagion” often refers to the gift of God’s nature is that it “belongs” to God, who calls it “my” spirit. The spirit is called “God’s” spirit in many verses and King David understood the holy spirit belonged to God because he wrote “…do not take your holy spirit from me.” The Bible shows us that “the holy spirit” is under God’s authority and direction, which makes sense when we understand it's the gift of His nature that He gives to believers.

 

[TomL]

Here's another one where the translators translated "it" to "him"...

Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and “S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.”

However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature. One of the ways we know that “pneuma hagion” often refers to the gift of God’s nature is that it “belongs” to God, who calls it “my” spirit. The spirit is called “God’s” spirit in many verses and King David understood the holy spirit belonged to God because he wrote “…do not take your holy spirit from me.” The Bible shows us that “the holy spirit” is under God’s authority and direction, which makes sense when we understand it's the gift of His nature that He gives to believers.

Nothing there addresses this

John 1:3 (LEB) — 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

αὐτός - he

sorry but you are in error

View attachment 1650

The pronoun is 3rd person masculine

Colossians 1:13–18 (LEB) — 13 who has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have the redemption, the forgiveness of sins, 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together, 18 and he himself is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in everything,



third person singular masculine

Hebrews 1:7–10 (LEB) — 7 And concerning the angels he says, “The one who makes his angels winds, and his servants a flame of fire,” 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, your God, has anointed you with the olive oil of joy more than your companions. 10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands;

1 Corinthians 8:6 (LEB) — 6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we are for him, and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through him.


Phil 2:6 was created to show personal pre-existence an issue which you have denied but do not deal with

as typical, you ignore scripture which points to Christ's previous existence as a personal being

further, you just deny all the verses showing he created all things, posting your ideas while ignoring scripture.

That is serious denial.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Nothing there addresses this

John 1:3 (LEB) — 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

αὐτός - he

sorry but you are in error

The pronoun is 3rd person masculine

In Koine Greek, as in Spanish, French, German and many other languages, nouns are assigned grammatical gender. Pronouns must agree in gender with their antecedent nouns. In this case, "λόγος" (logos, meaning "word") is grammatically masculine in Greek, which requires masculine pronouns to refer to it ("him").

In Spanish, for example, most of modern translations render "Logos" as "Palabra" which requires femenine pronouns. I don't think that Spanish-speaking Trinitarians believe that Logos was a woman.

In English you don't have that kind of grammatical gender. Some examples:
For you, love is "it". In Spanish and French, it is "him". In German it is "her".
For you, death is "it". In Spanish and French, it is "her". In German it is "him".

The correct translation in English would have been "All things came into being through it, and apart from it not one thing came into being that has come into being". Since English-speaking translators have the idea that the Logos is Jesus, and Jesus was a male, not a female, they have rendered this incorrectly as "him".

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

further, you just deny all the verses showing he created all things, posting your ideas while ignoring scripture.
That is serious denial.

No, it is not serious denial.

The God of Israel, the one Jesus worshiped, his apostles worshiped, and modern Jews worship, created everything.
God created the universe through his Word. We can read this in Genesis 1. He uttered his Word, and things came to existence. The Word has the vehicle or means of his creative act.
Since Jesus is referred to as the incarnated Word of God, Jesus is treated in the Bible as the vehicle by which God created everything.
That's why you find the preposition "through".

SOME EVIDENCES OF THE FATHER BEING THE CREATOR

1. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not Jesus, as we see clearly in Acts 3. Well, that God is presented as the Creator in the Bible: "You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you. You are the Lord God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham" (Nehemias 9:6,7) "Blessed are those whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the Lord their God. He is the Maker of heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them—he remains faithful forever." (Psalm 146:5,6)
2. When Jesus talked about God creating things, he talked always about the God the Israelites knew. He never presented himself as the creator. Because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again (Mark 13:19)
3. Jesus also talked about the Father as the Sustainer of the Creation: Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? (Matthew 6:26)
4. When Paul explained the Pagan Athenians who had created the world, he talked about Our Father, who had appointed a man, Christ, as savior and judge: The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth...We are his offspring...For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed." (Acts 17:24,28,31)
5. In the Book of Revelation, God is presented as the Father of Jesus (Rev 1:6) and this is the God that created everything: Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (14:7)
6. Perhaps the clearest exposition comes from Paul, who says " Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live". (1 Cor 8:6)

 

[Peterlag]

Nothing there addresses this

John 1:3 (LEB) — 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

αὐτός - he

sorry but you are in error

View attachment 1650

The pronoun is 3rd person masculine

Colossians 1:13–18 (LEB) — 13 who has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have the redemption, the forgiveness of sins, 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together, 18 and he himself is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in everything,

View attachment 1651

third person singular masculine

Hebrews 1:7–10 (LEB) — 7 And concerning the angels he says, “The one who makes his angels winds, and his servants a flame of fire,” 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, your God, has anointed you with the olive oil of joy more than your companions. 10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands;

1 Corinthians 8:6 (LEB) — 6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we are for him, and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through him.


Phil 2:6 was created to show personal pre-existence an issue which you have denied but do not deal with

as typical, you ignore scripture which points to Christ's previous existence as a personal being

further, you just deny all the verses showing he created all things, posting your ideas while ignoring scripture.

That is serious denial.

John 1:3...

“Everything came to be through it.” The logos is an “it,” not a “him.” God made everything through and according to His logos, His plan and purpose, and with wisdom. The logos was God’s plan and purpose, especially as it was put into action.

To understand one reason why most English versions say “him” but others say “it,” we must understand how pronouns are used in languages such as Greek. Unlike English, but like many languages, including Spanish, French, German, Latin, and Hebrew, the Greek language assigns a gender to nouns. Then, grammatically, the gender of any pronoun must match the gender of the associated noun. The gender assignment of nouns happened in ancient antiquity, and often there seems to be no reason why a noun has the gender assigned to it that it does.

In French, for example, a table is feminine, la table, while a desk is masculine, le bureau. Thus a strictly literal translation of a French sentence with nouns and matching pronouns might be, “I like the table, she is just right for the room, but I do not like the desk, he is too big.” In correctly translating from French to English, however, we would never translate the English as, “the table, she,” or “the desk, he.” Not only is it improper English, it misses the point. Even the French people do not think of tables and desks as being masculine or feminine. The gender of the nouns is simply a part of the language that has come down through the ages.

Furthermore, no one would ever insist that a table or desk was a person just because it had a masculine or feminine pronoun associated with it. Good English translators recognize that even though a noun is assigned a gender in another language and the associated pronoun follows the gender of the noun, their job is to bring the meaning of the original into English, not introduce confusion into the English translation. Hence, someone translating from French to English would use the English designation “it” for the table and the desk, in spite of the fact that the original French language called them “she” and “he.”

What is true in the examples from the French language is true in any language that assigns a gender to nouns and then uses pronouns with that same gender. For example, the Greek word for “lamp” is luchnos, a masculine noun, and therefore proper grammar dictates that any pronoun associated with it is masculine. Thus, if the Greek text of Matthew 5:15 were translated literally, it would read, “Nor do they light a lamp and place him under the bushel.” However, every English version we checked said, “it,” as proper English dictates.

The same grammatical rule that the pronoun must agree with the noun is followed when the noun is feminine. According to the literal Greek text, Christ told his disciples that when they entered a “city” (polin; a feminine noun) or “village” (kome; a feminine noun), they should “find out who in her is worthy” (Matthew 10:11; literally translated). The English versions correctly read, “it” instead of “her.” When translating from another language into English, we have to use the English language properly. Students learning Greek, Hebrew, Spanish, French, German, etc., quickly discover that one of the difficult things about learning the language is memorizing the gender of each noun—something we do not have in the English language.

Once we clearly understand the gender of a pronoun is determined by the gender of the noun, we can see why one cannot build a doctrine on the gender of a noun and its agreeing pronoun. Only confusion would result from that kind of erroneous exegesis. In John 1:3, the pronoun autou is masculine so it agrees grammatically with the masculine noun logos. Most Trinitarians believe that the logos refers to Jesus Christ, so to them the translation “him” is proper. However, we assert that the logos is not a person, but the plan or purpose of God, and is, therefore, an “it.”

Historically, Trinitarians have thought of the logos as Jesus Christ, so they have translated the pronoun as “him,” but not every version does that. The first English translation from the Greek text was done by William Tyndale (1494-1536; John Wycliffe translated into English earlier, but used the Latin as his base text). He translated the pronoun as “it,” not “him.” In 1537, the Matthew’s Bible, translated by John Rogers using the pseudonym “Thomas Matthews,” used “it,” not “him.” In 1539, the Great Bible, a revision of Matthew’s Bible, had “it.” This was important because the translation was overseen by Miles Coverdale, and in the Coverdale Bible of 1535, done some years earlier and based on the Latin, Coverdale used “him,” not “it,” but in this later version he apparently switched his preference and used “it.”

When Queen Mary forbade the printing of the English Bible, translation moved to Geneva, and the Geneva Bible of 1560 became the household Bible of the English-speaking people. It was the Bible used by Shakespeare, as well as the Puritans who settled New England. Under Queen Elizabeth, the English Bible was once again printed in Great Britain, and the Bishops’ Bible was published in 1568. It used “it,” not “him” in John 1:3-4, but was never popular with the people. The major change came with the King James Bible, which used “him,” not “it” in the opening of John, and most English versions since then have done the same. Nevertheless, we should be aware that the translation “it” has good literary foundation and a solid Christian history.

Although we today should think of the logos as an “it” for clarity, we need to acknowledge that the ancient people personified the concept of the logos and spoke of it as if it were a person, even though they did not believe it was a person. This seems strange to us, but it was perfectly natural for the ancients to use the figure of speech personification to express many concepts. Nevertheless, for us today it makes the text clearer if we say that God had a plan, and God worked through it (not, “him”) to restore the world to Himself.

 

[mikesw]

No, it is not serious denial.

The God of Israel, the one Jesus worshiped, his apostles worshiped, and modern Jews worship, created everything.
God created the universe through his Word. We can read this in Genesis 1. He uttered his Word, and things came to existence. The Word has the vehicle or means of his creative act.
Since Jesus is referred to as the incarnated Word of God, Jesus is treated in the Bible as the vehicle by which God created everything.
That's why you find the preposition "through".

SOME EVIDENCES OF THE FATHER BEING THE CREATOR

1. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not Jesus, as we see clearly in Acts 3. Well, that God is presented as the Creator in the Bible: "You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you. You are the Lord God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham" (Nehemias 9:6,7) "Blessed are those whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the Lord their God. He is the Maker of heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them—he remains faithful forever." (Psalm 146:5,6)
2. When Jesus talked about God creating things, he talked always about the God the Israelites knew. He never presented himself as the creator. Because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again (Mark 13:19)
3. Jesus also talked about the Father as the Sustainer of the Creation: Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? (Matthew 6:26)
4. When Paul explained the Pagan Athenians who had created the world, he talked about Our Father, who had appointed a man, Christ, as savior and judge: The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth...We are his offspring...For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed." (Acts 17:24,28,31)
5. In the Book of Revelation, God is presented as the Father of Jesus (Rev 1:6) and this is the God that created everything: Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (14:7)
6. Perhaps the clearest exposition comes from Paul, who says " Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live". (1 Cor 8:6)

Oops. Pancho's last quote shows equality of Jesus Christ and the Father in the creation process. He should not have included a verse indicating Jesus in the creation process. Nor is evidence of our Father in the creation of the world remove Christ from the creative role. The ambiguity of roles between them. Additionally, all that Peterlag has proposed has been refuted. It is merely his denial and negligence and persistence that keeps him posting. The denial of Jesus as the Word is obviously denied in this verse

Revelation 19:13 (ESV)
13He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.

Sorry Pancho Frijoles, your view has been totally debunked.

 

[TomL]

John 1:3...

“Everything came to be through it.” The logos is an “it,” not a “him.” God made everything through and according to His logos, His plan and purpose, and with wisdom. The logos was God’s plan and purpose, especially as it was put into action.

To understand one reason why most English versions say “him” but others say “it,” we must understand how pronouns are used in languages such as Greek. Unlike English, but like many languages, including Spanish, French, German, Latin, and Hebrew, the Greek language assigns a gender to nouns. Then, grammatically, the gender of any pronoun must match the gender of the associated noun. The gender assignment of nouns happened in ancient antiquity, and often there seems to be no reason why a noun has the gender assigned to it that it does.

There is no it

showed from the Greek a masculine pronoun and not a neuter pronoun is usedg

John 1:3 (LEB) — 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

The Greek is

αὐτός - he

sorry but you are in error

View attachment 1650

The pronoun is 3rd person masculine

Colossians 1:13–18 (LEB) — 13 who has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have the redemption, the forgiveness of sins, 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together, 18 and he himself is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in everything,

View attachment 1651

third person singular masculine


once again


Further you continue to ignore

Phil 2:6ff which shows a personal being.

 

[TomL]

No, it is not serious denial.

The God of Israel, the one Jesus worshiped, his apostles worshiped, and modern Jews worship, created everything.
God created the universe through his Word. We can read this in Genesis 1. He uttered his Word, and things came to existence. The Word has the vehicle or means of his creative act.
Since Jesus is referred to as the incarnated Word of God, Jesus is treated in the Bible as the vehicle by which God created everything.
That's why you find the preposition "through".

SOME EVIDENCES OF THE FATHER BEING THE CREATOR

1. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not Jesus, as we see clearly in Acts 3. Well, that God is presented as the Creator in the Bible: "You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you. You are the Lord God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham" (Nehemias 9:6,7) "Blessed are those whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the Lord their God. He is the Maker of heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them—he remains faithful forever." (Psalm 146:5,6)
2. When Jesus talked about God creating things, he talked always about the God the Israelites knew. He never presented himself as the creator. Because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again (Mark 13:19)
3. Jesus also talked about the Father as the Sustainer of the Creation: Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? (Matthew 6:26)
4. When Paul explained the Pagan Athenians who had created the world, he talked about Our Father, who had appointed a man, Christ, as savior and judge: The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth...We are his offspring...For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed." (Acts 17:24,28,31)
5. In the Book of Revelation, God is presented as the Father of Jesus (Rev 1:6) and this is the God that created everything: Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (14:7)
6. Perhaps the clearest exposition comes from Paul, who says " Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live". (1 Cor 8:6)

Are you just going to ignore all these

John 1:3 (LEB) — 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

Colossians 1:16 (LEB) — 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him,

Hebrews 1:8–11 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, your God, has anointed you with the olive oil of joy more than your companions. 10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands; 11 they will perish, but you continue, and they will all become old like a garment,

1 Corinthians 8:6 (LEB) — 6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we are for him, and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through him.

I repeat it is a serious denial

 

[TomL]

In Koine Greek, as in Spanish, French, German and many other languages, nouns are assigned grammatical gender. Pronouns must agree in gender with their antecedent nouns. In this case, "λόγος" (logos, meaning "word") is grammatically masculine in Greek, which requires masculine pronouns to refer to it ("him").

In Spanish, for example, most of modern translations render "Logos" as "Palabra" which requires femenine pronouns. I don't think that Spanish-speaking Trinitarians believe that Logos was a woman.

In English you don't have that kind of grammatical gender. Some examples:
For you, love is "it". In Spanish and French, it is "him". In German it is "her".
For you, death is "it". In Spanish and French, it is "her". In German it is "him".

The correct translation in English would have been "All things came into being through it, and apart from it not one thing came into being that has come into being". Since English-speaking translators have the idea that the Logos is Jesus, and Jesus was a male, not a female, they have rendered this incorrectly as "him".

Sorry not according to the Greek which uses a masculine pronoun as multiple citiations have shown

You are stuck with the fact a masculine term was used for the word.

and this is the spanish Reina Valera revised

John 1:1–3 (RVR60) — 1 En el principio era el Verbo, y el Verbo era con Dios, y el Verbo era Dios. 2 Este era en el principio con Dios. 3 Todas las cosas por él fueron hechas, y sin él nada de lo que ha sido hecho, fue hecho.

and an english tranlation

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him, and without him nothing that was made was made.

Additionally You are all ignoring the fact this points to a personal being

Philippians 2:5–8 (LEB) — 5 Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, 8 he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross.

 

[Johann]

In Koine Greek, as in Spanish, French, German and many other languages, nouns are assigned grammatical gender. Pronouns must agree in gender with their antecedent nouns. In this case, "λόγος" (logos, meaning "word") is grammatically masculine in Greek, which requires masculine pronouns to refer to it ("him").

This is incorrect brother.

Grammatical Gender Does Not Dictate Personal Identity
You assert that λόγος (logos, "word") is grammatically masculine in Greek and that this forces the use of masculine pronouns. However, grammatical gender does not determine the actual identity or personhood of a referent. Examples in Greek where grammatical gender does not reflect personal identity include:

πνεῦμα (pneuma, "spirit") – This noun is neuter in Greek, yet in John 16:13-14, the Holy Spirit is referred to with masculine pronouns (ἐκεῖνος, "He"), demonstrating that personal identity takes precedence over grammatical gender.

παιδίον (paidion, "child") – This noun is neuter, yet it can refer to male children such as Jesus in Luke 2:27.

Thus, while logos is grammatically masculine, that does not necessitate an impersonal translation (it) rather than a personal one (Him).

Source: Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, pp. 331-332

2. Contextual and Theological Considerations in John 1:1-3
John’s Gospel does not merely use logos as an abstract concept. The logos is explicitly identified as a person: Here's why--

John 1:1 – "The Word was with God" (πρὸς τὸν θεόν). The preposition πρὸς (pros, "toward") conveys personal relationship, not an abstract principle (cf. Wallace, p. 359).

John 1:14 – "And the Word became flesh (σὰρξ ἐγένετο) and dwelt among us." The verb ἐγένετο (egeneto, "became") shows that the logos took on humanity, meaning it refers to a person.

John 1:3 – "All things came into being through Him (δι’ αὐτοῦ)." The relative pronoun αὐτοῦ (autou) is masculine, referring to logos, which is best understood personally in light of v.14.

Translating John 1:3 as "All things came into being through it" depersonalizes the logos and contradicts John’s explicit teaching that the logos became flesh (v. 14) and is the Son of God (v. 18).

Source: A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. 5, p. 4

3. Why English Translations Use "Him"
Your assertion that English translations use "Him" due to theological bias is incorrect. The choice is based on contextual consistency with John's theology:

The logos is a divine person who becomes incarnate (John 1:14), not merely an impersonal force.

Other NT texts confirm Christ as the agent of creation (Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2).

The Gospel of John consistently identifies Jesus as the logos (John 1:14-18, 1 John 1:1).

Thus, rendering logos impersonally as it would introduce theological inconsistency.

Source: Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the God of Israel, pp. 28-30

4. The Spanish Translation of "Palabra" Does Not Undermine the Argument

You claim that Spanish translations render logos as palabra (feminine), suggesting that this affects theological meaning. However, Spanish, like Greek, requires pronouns to match the grammatical gender of their antecedent nouns, not necessarily the personal identity of the referent.

Nevertheless, Spanish Bibles that emphasize Christology retain the masculine pronoun for clarity:

"Todas las cosas por él fueron hechas..." (Reina-Valera 1960, John 1:3)

"Y aquel Verbo fue hecho carne..." (Reina-Valera 1960, John 1:14)

This proves that theological understanding—not merely grammatical gender—guides translation.

Source: Nueva Biblia de las Américas (NBLA), footnotes on John 1:1-3


Grammatical gender does not determine personal identity—this is why logos (masculine) refers to Christ and pneuma (neuter) refers to the Holy Spirit personally.

Context shows that the logos is a person, not an impersonal abstraction, as evidenced by John 1:1, 1:14, and 1:18.

Greek grammar requires masculine pronouns for logos, but John’s Christology supports the translation "Him" rather than "it".

Spanish and other translations that use "Palabra" still retain masculine pronouns for theological consistency (e.g., Reina-Valera).

Thus, your claim that John 1:3 should say "through it" instead of "through Him" is linguistically and theologically unsound.

Thanks.

J.

 

[TomL]

This is incorrect brother.

Grammatical Gender Does Not Dictate Personal Identity
You assert that λόγος (logos, "word") is grammatically masculine in Greek and that this forces the use of masculine pronouns. However, grammatical gender does not determine the actual identity or personhood of a referent. Examples in Greek where grammatical gender does not reflect personal identity include:

πνεῦμα (pneuma, "spirit") – This noun is neuter in Greek, yet in John 16:13-14, the Holy Spirit is referred to with masculine pronouns (ἐκεῖνος, "He"), demonstrating that personal identity takes precedence over grammatical gender.

παιδίον (paidion, "child") – This noun is neuter, yet it can refer to male children such as Jesus in Luke 2:27.

Thus, while logos is grammatically masculine, that does not necessitate an impersonal translation (it) rather than a personal one (Him).

Source: Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, pp. 331-332

2. Contextual and Theological Considerations in John 1:1-3
John’s Gospel does not merely use logos as an abstract concept. The logos is explicitly identified as a person: Here's why--

John 1:1 – "The Word was with God" (πρὸς τὸν θεόν). The preposition πρὸς (pros, "toward") conveys personal relationship, not an abstract principle (cf. Wallace, p. 359).

John 1:14 – "And the Word became flesh (σὰρξ ἐγένετο) and dwelt among us." The verb ἐγένετο (egeneto, "became") shows that the logos took on humanity, meaning it refers to a person.

John 1:3 – "All things came into being through Him (δι’ αὐτοῦ)." The relative pronoun αὐτοῦ (autou) is masculine, referring to logos, which is best understood personally in light of v.14.

Translating John 1:3 as "All things came into being through it" depersonalizes the logos and contradicts John’s explicit teaching that the logos became flesh (v. 14) and is the Son of God (v. 18).

Source: A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. 5, p. 4

3. Why English Translations Use "Him"
Your assertion that English translations use "Him" due to theological bias is incorrect. The choice is based on contextual consistency with John's theology:

The logos is a divine person who becomes incarnate (John 1:14), not merely an impersonal force.

Other NT texts confirm Christ as the agent of creation (Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2).

The Gospel of John consistently identifies Jesus as the logos (John 1:14-18, 1 John 1:1).

Thus, rendering logos impersonally as it would introduce theological inconsistency.

Source: Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the God of Israel, pp. 28-30

4. The Spanish Translation of "Palabra" Does Not Undermine the Argument

You claim that Spanish translations render logos as palabra (feminine), suggesting that this affects theological meaning. However, Spanish, like Greek, requires pronouns to match the grammatical gender of their antecedent nouns, not necessarily the personal identity of the referent.

Nevertheless, Spanish Bibles that emphasize Christology retain the masculine pronoun for clarity:

"Todas las cosas por él fueron hechas..." (Reina-Valera 1960, John 1:3)

"Y aquel Verbo fue hecho carne..." (Reina-Valera 1960, John 1:14)

This proves that theological understanding—not merely grammatical gender—guides translation.

Source: Nueva Biblia de las Américas (NBLA), footnotes on John 1:1-3


Grammatical gender does not determine personal identity—this is why logos (masculine) refers to Christ and pneuma (neuter) refers to the Holy Spirit personally.

Context shows that the logos is a person, not an impersonal abstraction, as evidenced by John 1:1, 1:14, and 1:18.

Greek grammar requires masculine pronouns for logos, but John’s Christology supports the translation "Him" rather than "it".

Spanish and other translations that use "Palabra" still retain masculine pronouns for theological consistency (e.g., Reina-Valera).

Thus, your claim that John 1:3 should say "through it" instead of "through Him" is linguistically and theologically unsound.

Thanks.

J.

Aside from which, there is the Greek word rhema translated word which has a neuter form

A sample appears below

Matt 4:4But he answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man will not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes out of the mouth of God.’ ”
Matt 12:36But I tell you that every worthless word that they speak, people will give an account for it on the day of judgment!
Luke 1:38So Mary said, “Behold, the Lord’s female slave! May it happen to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
Luke 2:19But Mary treasured up all these words, pondering them in her heart.
Luke 2:29“Now dismiss your slave in peace, Lord, according to your word.
Luke 3:2in the time of the high priest Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness.
Luke 5:5And Simon answered and said, “Master, although we worked hard through the whole night, we caught nothing. But at your word I will let down the nets.”
Luke 24:8And they remembered his words,
Luke 24:11And these words appeared to them as nonsense, and they refused to believe them.
John 3:34For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God, for he does not give the Spirit by measure.
John 5:47But if you do not believe that one’s writings, how will you believe my words?”
John 6:63The Spirit is the one who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
John 6:68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life.
John 8:20He spoke these words by the treasury while teaching in the temple courts, and no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come.
John 8:47The one who is from God listens to the words of God. Because of this you do not listen—because you are not of God.”
John 10:21Others were saying, “These are not the words of one who is possessed by a demon! A demon is not able to open the eyes of the blind, is it?”
John 12:47And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
John 14:10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from myself, but the Father residing in me does his works.
John 15:7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you want and it will be done for you.
John 17:8because the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they received them and know truly that I have come from you, and they have believed that you have sent me.
Acts 2:14But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them, “Judean men, and all those who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and pay attention to my words!
Acts 5:20“Go and stand in the temple courts and proclaim to the people all the words of this life.”
Acts 5:32And we are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.”
Acts 6:11Then they secretly instigated men who said, “We have heard him speaking blasphemous words against Moses and God!”
Acts 6:13And they put forward false witnesses who said, “This man does not stop speaking words against the holy place and the law!
Acts 10:22And they said, “Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man—and well spoken of by the whole nation of the Jews—was directed by a holy angel to summon you to his house and to hear words from you.”

So the masculine logos was chosen for a reason

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Sorry not according to the Greek which uses a masculine pronoun as multiple citiations have shown

You are stuck with the fact a masculine term was used for the word.

and this is the spanish Reina Valera revised

John 1:1–3 (RVR60) — 1 En el principio era el Verbo, y el Verbo era con Dios, y el Verbo era Dios. 2 Este era en el principio con Dios. 3 Todas las cosas por él fueron hechas, y sin él nada de lo que ha sido hecho, fue hecho.

and an english tranlation

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him, and without him nothing that was made was made.

Additionally You are all ignoring the fact this points to a personal being

Hi TomL and @Johann

Thanks for your posts and explanations.
Translators have deliberately chosen to use “him”, because they wanted to emphasize that the Word was the male person we know as Jesus. This was a theological choice, not a linguistic one.
( In Spanish They have gone so far, that although La Palabra is feminine, translators preferred not to use “Ella” (She) but “Aquel Que es la Palabra” (“He who is the Word”)… something that is just absent from the text!)

Translators, on the other hand, retained the natural feminine gender of the Hebrew word chokmah (חָכְמָה), “wisdom” in the book of Proverbs, eas you know, in the book of Proverbs Wisdom speaks of herself as being always with God.
“Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you.” (Proverbs 4:6)

Was the Wisdom a distinct divine person and, if so, did it have a true gender?
Could it be that Mormons are right, and we have an eternal Heavenly Mother who is presented in Proverbs as “the Wisdom”?

So, for the same reason that Wisdom is not literally a person, Word is not literally a person.
Both the description in Proverbs and in John 1:1-3 are metaphorical.
Do we all agree on the fact that Jewish monotheism does not admit more than one divine person?
Jesus is the personification of the Word because He speaks the words of The God. To listen to Jesus equals listening to the Word of God.
Jesus is the personification of the Light because He brings the knowledge of God that dissipates the darkness of sin and ignorance.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Are you just going to ignore all these

John 1:3 (LEB) — 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

Colossians 1:16 (LEB) — 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him,

Hebrews 1:8–11 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, your God, has anointed you with the olive oil of joy more than your companions. 10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands; 11 they will perish, but you continue, and they will all become old like a garment,

1 Corinthians 8:6 (LEB) — 6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we are for him, and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through him.

I repeat it is a serious denial

In these debates, TomL, it is important to avoid accusations of denial, calling God a liar, despising Scriptures, etc.
I don’t accuse you of denial for all the verses I quoted in post 1506.
You have presented some passages to support your view, that I will comment below, and I have presented others to support mine.

First, I would like to say that, in favor of the concept of The Father as the Creator

1. Thousands of years of Jewish monotheism, in which One Person is the Creator.
2. Statements from Jesus Himself. Jesus was a Jewish monotheist, just like the rabbi at the synagogue of your neighborhood.
3. A unequivocal Statement of Paul pointing to the Father as the origin of creation and Christ as the vehicle.
4. Statements from the Book of a revelation pointing out to the Father as the God of Jesus, and the Creator.

I would now consider those four verses you have kindly brought to the discussion:

• John 1:3 The Word is a vehicle, and that’s why the preposition “through” is used.
• 1 Corinthians 8:6. Christ is the vehicle: preposition “through” is used. In contrast, for God, who is The Father and Only The Father, preposition “from” is used.
• Colossians 1:16 also presents Christ as a vehicle. “For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.” (NIV) For Paul, as we saw in 1 Cor 8:6, Ther is only One God, the Father, who is the source of the creation while Lord Jesus is the vehicle of that creation.
• Hebrews 1:8-11 does not say that Jesus was the creator. The passage is quoting from the Tanakh, where the God of Israel, YHWH, is the only Creator. Pure Jewish monotheism.

Now p, if you don’t mind, it is your turn to comment on the six verses I mentioned in post 1506.
I would also like to ask you What was the role of The Father in Creation?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

JESUS: "THE SON OF MAN SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

FYI:
[Dan 7:13-14 AMP]

13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, on the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.​

14 "And to Him (the Messiah) was given dominion (supreme authority), Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and speakers of every language Should serve and worship Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.​

[Psa 110:1-7 AMP]

1 A Psalm of David. The LORD (Father) says to my Lord (the Messiah, His Son), "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet [subjugating them into complete submission]." 2 The LORD will send the scepter of Your strength from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of Your enemies." 3 Your people will offer themselves willingly [to participate in Your battle] in the day of Your power; In the splendor of holiness, from the womb of the dawn, Your young men are to You as the dew. ​

4 The LORD has sworn [an oath] and will not change His mind: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek." 5 The LORD is at Your right hand, He will crush kings in the day of His wrath. 6 He will execute judgment [in overwhelming punishment] among the nations; He will fill them with corpses, He will crush the chief men over a broad country. 7 He will drink from the brook by the wayside; Therefore He will lift up His head [triumphantly].​

​

I bet the Sanhedrin knew these verses!

The people of the Sanhedrin were Jewish monotheists. They believed that God was a Singular Person, and they were right.
They knew that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was One Person, just as Jesus, and just as every disciple.
Nobody could have ever imagined something different.

The passages you quote from Psalm 110 had NEVER been interpreted as God having a companion god. Not at the time of ancient Israel, not by the time of Jesus, not now. Ask the rabbi at the synagogue of your city.

The very fact that someone is invited to sit at the right of God PROVES that such person is not God.
Can God invite Himself to sit at the right of Himself? No.
Can God sit anywhere else except in the throne of God? No.
That would be absurd… from the Jewish monotheistic perspective.

From the perspective of Greek polytheism, it is perfectly reasonable that one divine person invites another divine person to sit at his right. From theGreek polytheist perspective, one divine person can assign a mission to another divine person, receive authority from other divine person, agree with other divine person, marry other divine person, beget another divine person, etc.

 

[synergy]

From the perspective of Greek polytheism, it is perfectly reasonable that one divine person invites another divine person to sit at his right. From theGreek polytheist perspective, one divine person can assign a mission to another divine person, receive authority from other divine person, agree with other divine person, marry other divine person, beget another divine person, etc.

God carefully predestined the Greek language to be the linguistic vehicle through which the truth of the Trinity would be communicated to the world. The Greek language, the Greek OT (Septuagint), and Hellenistic Jewish thought all point to a divine setup for revealing the Holy Trinity in the fullness of time.

Greek had the precise vocabulary necessary to express complex theological truths, ensuring that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity could be clearly articulated without contradiction.

To debase all that, like you're doing, is to display ignorance of the highest degree.

S

Thread 'The Predestination of the Greek OT, the Greek NT, and the Greek Language for the revealing of the Holy Trinity.'

Mar 8, 2025

Belief in the Holy Trinity was not a human invention but was predestined by God, carefully prepared through history, language, and culture. The Greek language, the Greek OT (Septuagint), and Hellenistic Jewish thought all point to a divine setup for revealing the Holy Trinity in the fullness of time.

God Prepared Greek as the Perfect Theological Tool – Long before Christ, God orchestrated events so that Greek would become the dominant language of the ancient world. This wasn’t random. Greek had the precise vocabulary necessary to express complex theological truths, ensuring that the...

• synergy

• 
• 

 

[mikesw]

The people of the Sanhedrin were Jewish monotheists. They believed that God was a Singular Person, and they were right.
They knew that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was One Person, just as Jesus, and just as every disciple.
Nobody could have ever imagined something different.

The passages you quote from Psalm 110 had NEVER been interpreted as God having a companion god. Not at the time of ancient Israel, not by the time of Jesus, not now. Ask the rabbi at the synagogue of your city.

The very fact that someone is invited to sit at the right of God PROVES that such person is not God.
Can God invite Himself to sit at the right of Himself? No.
Can God sit anywhere else except in the throne of God? No.
That would be absurd… from the Jewish monotheistic perspective.

From the perspective of Greek polytheism, it is perfectly reasonable that one divine person invites another divine person to sit at his right. From theGreek polytheist perspective, one divine person can assign a mission to another divine person, receive authority from other divine person, agree with other divine person, marry other divine person, beget another divine person, etc.

So is Pancho Frijoles thinking that Jews were following Greek polytheism when writing scripture? That is hardly likely, especially when Jews envisioned Two Powers of Heaven distinctly from Christian writings. Pancho Frijoles therefore does not understand Jewish history nor Christian on this issue.

 

[Peterlag]

There is no it

showed from the Greek a masculine pronoun and not a neuter pronoun is usedg

John 1:3 (LEB) — 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

The Greek is

αὐτός - he

sorry but you are in error

View attachment 1650

The pronoun is 3rd person masculine

Colossians 1:13–18 (LEB) — 13 who has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have the redemption, the forgiveness of sins, 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together, 18 and he himself is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in everything,

View attachment 1651

third person singular masculine


once again


Further you continue to ignore

Phil 2:6ff which shows a personal being.

Now who really is in denial? Interesting how both @Pancho Frijoles and myself posted the same thing back to back and neither one of us knew what the other was going to do.

 

[Peterlag]

Hi TomL and @Johann

Thanks for your posts and explanations.
Translators have deliberately chosen to use “him”, because they wanted to emphasize that the Word was the male person we know as Jesus. This was a theological choice, not a linguistic one.
( In Spanish They have gone so far, that although La Palabra is feminine, translators preferred not to use “Ella” (She) but “Aquel Que es la Palabra” (“He who is the Word”)… something that is just absent from the text!)

Translators, on the other hand, retained the natural feminine gender of the Hebrew word chokmah (חָכְמָה), “wisdom” in the book of Proverbs, eas you know, in the book of Proverbs Wisdom speaks of herself as being always with God.
“Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you.” (Proverbs 4:6)

Was the Wisdom a distinct divine person and, if so, did it have a true gender?
Could it be that Mormons are right, and we have an eternal Heavenly Mother who is presented in Proverbs as “the Wisdom”?

So, for the same reason that Wisdom is not literally a person, Word is not literally a person.
Both the description in Proverbs and in John 1:1-3 are metaphorical.
Do we all agree on the fact that Jewish monotheism does not admit more than one divine person?
Jesus is the personification of the Word because He speaks the words of The God. To listen to Jesus equals listening to the Word of God.
Jesus is the personification of the Light because He brings the knowledge of God that dissipates the darkness of sin and ignorance.

You are brilliant.