Peterlag
Well-known member
I think I already responded to this. All I have to deal with is what I think is in your mind. Because there's nothing about the trinity in Scripture.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
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Peterlag
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The truth is Jesus is not God and therefore did not create all things. Why you want to believe what I believe is the doctrine of devils is something I do not understand.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Not completely as bad as Mikesw. I'm not saying you are the devil or you are stupid. I'm saying the trinity is the doctrine of devils and that trinity is what you enjoy following.
I mostly just point out the hyperliteralist reading of scripture by the Unitarian and the lack of any argument sufficient to lead Christians away from what scripture reveals. I also point out when your views of passages have been debunked when you try presenting the same question again in the discussion. You also should be acquainted with the view held by orthodox Christians and thus should even anticipate scriptures Christians bring up against your view, but you fail to do that. But Peterlag may not be reading my responses.
dwight92070
Well-known member
So a doctrine found throughout the New Testament is a doctrine of devils? Be careful, if you attribute the words of the Holy Spirit to the doctrine of the devil, isn't that blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Yes, I enjoy following any doctrine that the New Testament is saturated with.
There you go, ignoring scripture again
John 1:1–3 (LEB) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.
Hebrews 1:8–10 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, your God, has anointed you with the olive oil of joy more than your companions. 10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands;
Bald denial and a failure to exegete scripture is not dealing with scripture
Jesus is God also called the Word who created all things
For those who want a good video on the second divine one in the Old Testament, here is a video that gives more examples.
Peterlag
Well-known member
You have accused me of ignoring Scripture a whole bunch of times. And that is not true. I post and respond to a lot of Scripture. What you want is for me to post and respond to Scripture that has a spin on it that agrees with how you see it which I thing is not Scripture from God, but rather doctrines of devils.
Peterlag
Well-known member
A little bit on how I see Hebrews 1:8...
The renowned Greek scholar and Trinitarian, A. T. Robertson noted that the Greek word theos (God) could be understood as a vocative, “O God” or as a nominative, as in the phrase “God is thy throne” or “Thy throne is God.” He wrote: “Either [translation] makes good sense.” Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalms 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. The Jews read Psalms 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God. But beyond that, it is clear in Psalms 45 that the person who is the subject of the Psalms is not God, but is a human being.
are you saying that scripture contains scripture that is not from God?
This clearly is to the son
Hebrews 1:8–12 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, your God, has anointed you with the olive oil of joy more than your companions. 10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands; 11 they will perish, but you continue, and they will all become old like a garment, 12 and like a robe you will roll them up, and like a garment they will be changed; but you are the same, and your years will not run out.”
Who is identified as the lord who laid the foundation of the earth
Lord (Κυριε [Kurie]). In the LXX, not in the Hebrew. Quotation (the sixth) from Psa. 102:26–28 through verses 10 to 12. Note emphatic position of συ [su] here at the beginning as in verses 11 and 12 (συ δε [su de]). This Messianic Psalm pictures the Son in his Creative work and in his final triumph. Hast laid the foundation (ἐθεμελιωσας [ethemeliōsas]). First aorist active of θεμελιοω [themelioō], old verb from θεμελιος [themelios] (foundation) for which see Col. 1:23.
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Heb 1:10.
Just as was seen in John 1:1-3 which you ignored
John 1:1–3 (LEB) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.
Sorry but it is true
Christ was shown to be a personal being who created all things
And you continue to refer to him as a non-personal thing
I want you to deal with the multiple verses which state Christ created all things along with the obvious personal pre-existance shown in Phil 2:6 and other passages
Peterlag
Well-known member
There are no Scriptures that say Jesus created all things. I can only think of one verse you may be referring to and it's referring to thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans, and stars. And I'm sure I have posted this many times along with this...
Philippians 2:6 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should confess or believe that Jesus is God. From the Septuagint and their other writings, the Jews were familiar with morphē referring to the outward appearance, including the form of men and idols. To the Greeks, it also referred to the outward appearance, including the changing outward appearance of their gods and the form of statues. The only other New Testament use of morphē outside Philippians is in Mark, and there it refers to the outward appearance. Also, the words related to morphē clearly refer to an outward manifestation or appearance. The word morphē refers to an outward appearance or manifestation. Jesus Christ was in the outward appearance of God, so much so that he said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Christ always did the Father’s will, and perfectly represented his Father in every way.
Peterlag
Well-known member
How is it I ignore John 1:1 when I post it every other day? Here it is again...
John 1:1
Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."
If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.
John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.
I shared this last night but it was not a response to anyone :
It always is interesting how God adds additional insight at the right time. Peterlag may be ignoring me and will then miss this observation. Another interesting detail in Hebrews is that the Psalm 102 is applied to Jesus when it might have seemed to be of the Father:
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Ok. Additionally the word is also seen in the Old Testament as a personal being who is called Yahweh or Jehovah.
The word of the Lord appears or came and spoke Gen 15:1, 4
Genesis 15:1–8 (LEB) — 1 After these things the word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision, saying: “Do not be afraid, Abram; I am your shield, and your reward shall be very great.” 2 Then Abram said, “O Yahweh, my Lord, what will you give me? I continue to be childless, and my heir is Eliezer of Damascus.” 3 And Abram said, “Look, you have not given me a descendant, and here, a member of my household is my heir.” 4 And behold, the word of Yahweh came to him saying, “This person will not be your heir, but your own son will be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward the heavens and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 And he believed in Yahweh, and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7 And he said to him, “I am Yahweh, who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give this land to you, to possess it.” 8 And he said, “O Yahweh God, how shall I know that I will possess it?”
Jeremiah 1:4–15 (LEB) — 4 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you came out from the womb I consecrated you; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” 6 Then I said, “Ah, Lord Yahweh! Look, I do not know how to speak, for I am a youth.” 7 But Yahweh said to me, “You must not say, ‘I am a youth,’ for to whomever I send you, you will go, and whatever I command you, you will speak. 8 Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you to deliver you,” declares Yahweh. 9 Then Yahweh stretched out his hand and he touched my mouth, and Yahweh said to me, “Look, I have put my words in your mouth. 10 See, I appoint you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, to pluck up and to pull down, and to destroy and to tear down, to build and to plant.” 11 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, “What are you seeing, Jeremiah?” And I said, “I am seeing a branch of an almond tree.” 12 Then Yahweh said to me, “You did well to see, for I am watching over my word to perform it.” 13 And the word of Yahweh came to me a second time, saying, “What are you seeing?” And I said, “I am seeing a boiling pot, and its face is from the face of the north.” 14 Then Yahweh said to me, “From the north disaster will be unleashed on all the inhabitants of the land. 15 For, look, I am calling to all the clans of the kingdoms of the north,” declares Yahweh, “and they will come and set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its surrounding walls, and against all the cities of Judah.
1 Kings 19:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?
Zechariah 4:8–9 (LEB) — 8 And the word of Yahweh came to me, saying, 9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have founded this house, and his hands will finish it. And you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me to you.
None of that is scripture
That is how you ignore it
This is scripture
John 1:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Hebrews 1:8–10 (KJV 1900) — 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Philippians 2:5–7 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
and it shows a personal existence before becoming flesh and it shows he created all things
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Thanks. those are good. You are helping bring out those details out of the OT. Indeed that detail can be overlooked in casual reading of the OT. It does make sense, especially where the Angel of the Lord or Word of the Lord is then described as being with Yahweh. I just added the one from Revelation 19 because that is in the NT along with John1
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