Thomas... My Lord and my God

Runningman said:
This reads like you don't believe the Bible is divinely inspired by those through whom God delivered the message. Jesus said God is the Father and everyone else did too. YHWH directly called Himself Father in Psalm 2:7 and Jeremiah 3:19. But you seem to want to play mental gymnastics and be as slippery as jelly at the same time. Just when I think I got hand on your argument, it slips through my fingers and reforms somewhere else. In debates, that's called "moving the goal posts" you hide behind obscurities and subjectivity like a true Bible lawyer. Case in point, your argument supports a trinity that is not explicitly stated in Scripture. You can argue here, but you won't be able to argue with God.
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Projecting and the fact is I used your same argument against Jesus against the Father.

It’s called check mate, you failed.
 
Complete said:
Hello @Peterlag,

I suggest you look at the words of your own entry (quoted above), to which I directed the verse I quoted from Matthew 12: For you are coming perilously close to doing what that verse warns against. (Matt. 12:25-32)

In Christ Jesus
Chris
Click to expand...
I still don't get your point. How does speaking against God fit with 1 John 4:2 that says the true spirit will say Jesus came in the flesh?
 
civic said:
Projecting and the fact is I used your same argument against Jesus against the Father.

It’s called check mate, you failed.
Click to expand...
Um, the Father is called God, YHWH, Lord, etc in Scripture. Your argument reads like Thomas could be Lord God Almighty because of a lack of explicit statements. Don't go too far with it.
 
Runningman said:
Um, the Father is called God, YHWH, Lord, etc in Scripture. Your argument reads like Thomas could be Lord God Almighty because of a lack of explicit statements. Don't go too far with it.
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you do not get it. You ask where scripture says the Jesus, the Son of God, is God when it is right in his name. But you ironically or desperately hold to the Father being God when there is no verses saying that. I just mean you do it desperately in the sense you even lack a verse saying the Father is God. In fact, we have more verses saying Jesus is God than any verses saying the Father is God.
 
Runningman said:
Um, the Father is called God, YHWH, Lord, etc in Scripture. Your argument reads like Thomas could be Lord God Almighty because of a lack of explicit statements. Don't go too far with it.
Click to expand...
Um, the Son is called God, YHWH, Lord, etc in Scripture. Your argument reads like a person with a bias.

next
 
In Hebrews:

The Son is the express image of the Father.
Better than angels.

In Revelation He is the Alpha and Omega.

Would you seriously call someone mortal like this?

If He isn't mortal..then you are faced with Him being God. If you think He is 'a' god.. then you aren't Unitarian but Polytheistic.
 
Runningman said:
Um, Jesus called them god in John 10:34,35. Where do we draw the line?
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your out of context cherry picked verse to try and support you own personal views.


In John 10, Jesus cites Psalm 82:6 and repeats the statement that “you are gods.” The context is a confrontation between Jesus and the Jews at the Festival of Dedication. They ask Him to reveal plainly if He is the Messiah (John 10:24). Jesus responds that His actions prove He is the Messiah, and then He claims equality with God by saying, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). At that, the Jews pick up stones to stone Him for blasphemy (John 10:31–33), but Jesus reasons with them by quoting Psalm 82:6: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?” Who are the “gods” of Psalm 82:6, and what exactly is Jesus’ point in saying, “You are gods” in John 10:34 (or “ye are gods” in the KJV)?

Let’s start with a look at Psalm 82, the psalm that Jesus quotes in John 10:34. The Hebrew word translated “gods” in Psalm 82:6 is elohim. The term elohim is most frequently used to refer to the one true God, but it does have other uses. Yahweh is referred to as the Elohim above all elohim (Psalm 95:3). Other uses of the term elohim include spiritual beings such as angels (Job 2:1; 38:7); demons, idols, and gods of foreign nations (Genesis 35:4; Deuteronomy 32:17; 1 Kings 11:33); and the disembodied dead (1 Samuel 28:13). The Hebrew word elohim is also translated “judges” in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8, 9, and 28. Whom, then, does God call “gods” in Psalm 82:6? There are two main views:

1) The “gods” are supernatural beings who rule under God. Psalm 82:1 says, “God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods.” In the Hebrew, the phrase translated “great assembly” speaks of a divine congregation or a divine council. Some interpret this passage as God warning that those in the divine council who continue making unjust decisions will die “like mere mortals” and “fall like all other rulers” (Psalm 82:2, 6–8). God created hell for Satan and his angels (Matthew 25:41), and we know He will bring justice to them at the right time. They will fall like mere mortals.

2) The “gods” of Psalm 82 are human magistrates, judges, and rulers who have been granted authority in the earth. In this view, the whole point of Psalm 82 is that earthly judges must act with impartiality and true justice, because even judges must stand someday before the Judge. Psalm 82:6 and 7 warn human magistrates that they, too, must be judged: “I said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’ But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” According to this view, God has appointed men to positions of authority in which they are considered as gods among the people (see Exodus 7:1). Calling a human magistrate a “god” indicates three things: 1) he has authority over other human beings, 2) the power he wields as a civil authority is to be feared, and 3) he derives his power and authority from God Himself, who is pictured as judging the whole earth in Psalm 82:8. Human rulers are to remember that, even though they are representing God in this world, they are mortal and must eventually give an account to God for how they use that authority.

Now, let’s look at how Jesus uses this passage. When Jesus quotes Psalm 82, He says that the statement “you are gods” was directed to those “to whom the word of God came” (John 10:35). That is, those who received the message of God were called “gods.” Jesus had just claimed to be the Son of God (John 10:25–30). The unbelieving Jews responded by charging Jesus with blasphemy, since He claimed to be God (verse 33). Jesus then quotes Psalm 82:6 and says, “If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?” Jesus’ point is this: you charge me with blasphemy based on my use of the title “Son of God”; yet your own Scriptures apply the same term to others besides God. If those who hold a divinely appointed office or those who have a divine position in the spiritual realm can be considered “gods,” how much more can the One whom God has chosen and sent (John 10:34–36)?

Mormonism uses these texts as proof texts to show the eventual divinity of man. However, neither of these passages is proof that man can attain godhood. We must beware of the lie that the serpent used to deceive Eve in the garden: “Your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God” (Genesis 3:5). This was a half-truth. Their eyes were opened (verse 7), but they did not become like God. In fact, they lost authority, rather than gaining it. Satan deceived Eve about her ability to become like the one true God, and so led her into a lie. Jesus defended His claim to be the Son of God on biblical and semantic grounds—there is a sense in which influential men and spiritual beings can be referred to as “gods”; therefore, the Messiah can rightly apply the term to Himself. Human beings are not “gods” or “little gods.” They will never become gods. God is God, and we who know Christ are His children.got?

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
your out of context cherry picked verse to try and support you own personal views.


In John 10, Jesus cites Psalm 82:6 and repeats the statement that “you are gods.” The context is a confrontation between Jesus and the Jews at the Festival of Dedication. They ask Him to reveal plainly if He is the Messiah (John 10:24). Jesus responds that His actions prove He is the Messiah, and then He claims equality with God by saying, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). At that, the Jews pick up stones to stone Him for blasphemy (John 10:31–33), but Jesus reasons with them by quoting Psalm 82:6: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?” Who are the “gods” of Psalm 82:6, and what exactly is Jesus’ point in saying, “You are gods” in John 10:34 (or “ye are gods” in the KJV)?

Let’s start with a look at Psalm 82, the psalm that Jesus quotes in John 10:34. The Hebrew word translated “gods” in Psalm 82:6 is elohim. The term elohim is most frequently used to refer to the one true God, but it does have other uses. Yahweh is referred to as the Elohim above all elohim (Psalm 95:3). Other uses of the term elohim include spiritual beings such as angels (Job 2:1; 38:7); demons, idols, and gods of foreign nations (Genesis 35:4; Deuteronomy 32:17; 1 Kings 11:33); and the disembodied dead (1 Samuel 28:13). The Hebrew word elohim is also translated “judges” in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8, 9, and 28. Whom, then, does God call “gods” in Psalm 82:6? There are two main views:

1) The “gods” are supernatural beings who rule under God. Psalm 82:1 says, “God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods.” In the Hebrew, the phrase translated “great assembly” speaks of a divine congregation or a divine council. Some interpret this passage as God warning that those in the divine council who continue making unjust decisions will die “like mere mortals” and “fall like all other rulers” (Psalm 82:2, 6–8). God created hell for Satan and his angels (Matthew 25:41), and we know He will bring justice to them at the right time. They will fall like mere mortals.

2) The “gods” of Psalm 82 are human magistrates, judges, and rulers who have been granted authority in the earth. In this view, the whole point of Psalm 82 is that earthly judges must act with impartiality and true justice, because even judges must stand someday before the Judge. Psalm 82:6 and 7 warn human magistrates that they, too, must be judged: “I said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’ But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” According to this view, God has appointed men to positions of authority in which they are considered as gods among the people (see Exodus 7:1). Calling a human magistrate a “god” indicates three things: 1) he has authority over other human beings, 2) the power he wields as a civil authority is to be feared, and 3) he derives his power and authority from God Himself, who is pictured as judging the whole earth in Psalm 82:8. Human rulers are to remember that, even though they are representing God in this world, they are mortal and must eventually give an account to God for how they use that authority.

Now, let’s look at how Jesus uses this passage. When Jesus quotes Psalm 82, He says that the statement “you are gods” was directed to those “to whom the word of God came” (John 10:35). That is, those who received the message of God were called “gods.” Jesus had just claimed to be the Son of God (John 10:25–30). The unbelieving Jews responded by charging Jesus with blasphemy, since He claimed to be God (verse 33). Jesus then quotes Psalm 82:6 and says, “If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?” Jesus’ point is this: you charge me with blasphemy based on my use of the title “Son of God”; yet your own Scriptures apply the same term to others besides God. If those who hold a divinely appointed office or those who have a divine position in the spiritual realm can be considered “gods,” how much more can the One whom God has chosen and sent (John 10:34–36)?

Mormonism uses these texts as proof texts to show the eventual divinity of man. However, neither of these passages is proof that man can attain godhood. We must beware of the lie that the serpent used to deceive Eve in the garden: “Your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God” (Genesis 3:5). This was a half-truth. Their eyes were opened (verse 7), but they did not become like God. In fact, they lost authority, rather than gaining it. Satan deceived Eve about her ability to become like the one true God, and so led her into a lie. Jesus defended His claim to be the Son of God on biblical and semantic grounds—there is a sense in which influential men and spiritual beings can be referred to as “gods”; therefore, the Messiah can rightly apply the term to Himself. Human beings are not “gods” or “little gods.” They will never become gods. God is God, and we who know Christ are His children.got?

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
How about just stick with what the plain text says? That's okay, too, isn't it? No problem with just going with Jesus said right? Ok, I assume you agree (at least internally) so the ones to whom the word of God came are gods. Therefore, since the word of God also came to Jesus, isn't he also one of the many many many gods? You may struggle with this because you are trapped in trinitarianism, but try to drop it for a second, take a few deep breaths, and understand.

Isn't this an example of the word of God coming to Jesus?

Matthew 3:16-17 (NIV)
"As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.'"
 
Peterlag said:
Concerning 1 John 4:1-2 that you mentioned... If the spirit is telling you that Jesus is God. That spirit is not from God. The spirit from God will say that Jesus came in the flesh. The false spirit will say God came in the flesh. There's your test of the spirit.
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The Scripture tells me the Word (God) was 'made' flesh. And FYI Jesus is flesh. It is Christ who is the Spirit, or that Spirit.
You're just an unbeliever. That's all. For everyone to whom God reveals the Son will come to know the Word was 'made' flesh.
Just as Scripture says in John 1.
So, since God reveals Himself in Christ and you don't believe this, then God has not revealed Himself to you and you are merely another unbeliever who attacks the truth of the Word of God.
This makes you false.
 
mikesw said:
Here's a paper on the divinity of Christ in the Didache
www.academia.edu

Didache and Trinity: Proto-Trinitarianism in an Early Christian Community

The Didache is an early Christian Jewish record from the apostolic period and a crucial document in the attempt to understand not only the praxis, but also the theology of nascent Christian Judaism. It's nascent proto-Trinitarianism is
www.academia.edu

Hopefully the link works for you all.
Click to expand...

The Didache is not the best example of "Church Order". The Scriptures are. The "Didache" is fragmented in Codex Hierosolymitanus. It is not much more than a 11th century reconstruction.
 
Peterlag said:
I still don't get your point. How does speaking against God fit with 1 John 4:2 that says the true spirit will say Jesus came in the flesh?
Click to expand...

Speaking of flesh.......

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Joh 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
The Words of Eternal Life
Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Joh 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Above is an example of how many of the disciples of Jesus Christ abandoned Him and why.......

What is your assessment of what Jesus required above?

I haven't seen you say anything that is any different in those who abandoned Jesus Christ. Are you a traitor of Jesus Christ? If not, then why not?
 
praise_yeshua said:
Speaking of flesh.......

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Joh 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
The Words of Eternal Life
Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Joh 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Above is an example of how many of the disciples of Jesus Christ abandoned Him and why.......

What is your assessment of what Jesus required above?

I haven't seen you say anything that is any different in those who abandoned Jesus Christ. Are you a traitor of Jesus Christ? If not, then why not?
Click to expand...
The only thing I got out of your post was the following verse. I have been thinking about some biblical stuff and this verse was good for me to see today. Thank you so much.

As far as the other verses you posted. I don't get your point.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
 
jeremiah1five said:
The Scripture tells me the Word (God) was 'made' flesh. And FYI Jesus is flesh. It is Christ who is the Spirit, or that Spirit.
You're just an unbeliever. That's all. For everyone to whom God reveals the Son will come to know the Word was 'made' flesh.
Just as Scripture says in John 1.
So, since God reveals Himself in Christ and you don't believe this, then God has not revealed Himself to you and you are merely another unbeliever who attacks the truth of the Word of God.
This makes you false.
Click to expand...
John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.
 
Peterlag said:
John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.
Click to expand...
John 1:14 essentially means Jesus was created.
 
Peterlag said:
The only thing I got out of your post was the following verse. I have been thinking about some biblical stuff and this verse was good for me to see today. Thank you so much.

As far as the other verses you posted. I don't get your point.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
Click to expand...

So the flesh of Jesus doesn't mean anything to you?
 

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