Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Peterlag]

The key thing I see going on is the separation of the Spirit, Son and Father to the point of inferiority/immortal vs mortal/lesser gods.

This is also what many liberal/atheist biblical critics do.

It is isolating scripture from it's context.

A prime example is when Jesus said the Father is 'greater than I'

Rather than see that Jesus is about to ascend to be one with the Father, equal... they look at the verse on it's own and make a judgment on it.

The other thing is the communication between Spirit, Father and Son gets seen again as the Father as superior and the Son inferior..or mortal. I don't know what they do with the Spirit.

Again..it's putting biases on scripture before letting it speak for itself. Like the atheist denying the supernatural can happen before looking at scripture.

There is not one verse that says Jesus is God the Son. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not.

All you folks ever put in front of me are bits and pieces of words and half verses that are scattered all over the Bible. Also there's no teaching on why God would come to the earth as a man. Such a concept accomplishes nothing. Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

 

[360watt]

There is not one verse that says Jesus is God the Son. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not.

All you folks ever put in front of me are bits and pieces of words and half verses that are scattered all over the Bible. Also there's no teaching on why God would come to the earth as a man. Such a concept accomplishes nothing. Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

if Jesus came right out and said I am God, right away.. it would mess with the timing of key events and the perception of who God is by others needs to be taken into account.

You know this.. it is obvious that if He revealed Himself at the wrong time it would mess with things big time.

Enough of this.

 

[Peterlag]

if Jesus came right out and said I am God, right away.. it would mess with the timing of key events and the perception of who God is by others needs to be taken into account.

You know this.. it is obvious that if He revealed Himself at the wrong time it would mess with things big time.

Enough of this.

Now what on earth could we be talking about? That Jesus was hiding himself from who he was from the devil? I can assure you that you may not know who Jesus is. But the devil sure the hell does.

 

[civic]

Now what on earth could we be talking about? That Jesus was hiding himself from who he was from the devil? I can assure you that you may not know who Jesus is. But the devil sure the hell does.

he was talking about Jesus immediately claiming to be God and announcing it early in His ministry not that the demons didn't recognize Him as their Creator which they did. you are equivocating.

 

[Runningman]

You have seen scripture from many people. You should know those verses if you are going to deny what they say. You are the one-verse unitarian who determines the meaning of all scripture from John 17:3. That just is not sufficient to convince us of anything you say.

You have seen scripture from many people. You have read the Bible yourself. You have nothing about the trinity from the Bible. On the other hand, you reject Jesus' clear teachings among numerous other things. Aside from John 17:3, I have talked about A LOT more than that. If you don't believe the plain text of the Bible, you will not believe the other arguments. We've seen that with you.

 

[Runningman]

if Jesus came right out and said I am God, right away.. it would mess with the timing of key events and the perception of who God is by others needs to be taken into account.

You know this.. it is obvious that if He revealed Himself at the wrong time it would mess with things big time.

Enough of this.

Why do you think Jesus never came right out and said he's God whether while on earth or after being taken to heaven? Why do you think Jesus inferred claiming to be God would be blasphemy? Why do you think no one else called him God either? You don't think it's enough that everyone kept on calling him a man?

 

[Runningman]

he was talking about Jesus immediately claiming to be God and announcing it early in His ministry not that the demons didn't recognize Him as their Creator which they did. you are equivocating.

Jesus never claimed to be God.

 

[mikesw]

You have seen scripture from many people. You have read the Bible yourself. You have nothing about the trinity from the Bible. On the other hand, you reject Jesus' clear teachings among numerous other things. Aside from John 17:3, I have talked about A LOT more than that. If you don't believe the plain text of the Bible, you will not believe the other arguments. We've seen that with you.

you can try a different argument for your one-verse unitarianism if you like. The other passages were described too eisegetically for my taste. I cannot even figure out why you believe that unitarian stuff. It is so outlandish.

 

[Runningman]

you can try a different argument for your one-verse unitarianism if you like. The other passages were described too eisegetically for my taste. I cannot even figure out why you believe that unitarian stuff. It is so outlandish.

You mean like how there are no teachings to worship Jesus in the Bible, no teaching to pray to him, no teachings to fast to him? Nothing in the gospel about believing Jesus is God to be saved? How about the two dozens names and titles Jesus doesn't share with God? How about Jesus having everything in common with his brothers? How about Jesus and the apostles standing in solidarity regarding the Father being the only true God? How about there just being nothing about the trinity in the Bible? You've already been shown the light about the topic. You've already been shown what the sin of idolatry is and how judgement is coming for you according to Scripture. You simply are not a follower of Jesus' teachings.

 

[Peterlag]

he was talking about Jesus immediately claiming to be God and announcing it early in His ministry not that the demons didn't recognize Him as their Creator which they did. you are equivocating.

Okay so why hide yourself?

 

[civic]

Jesus never claimed to be God.

Neither did the Father

Next fallacy

 

[civic]

Okay so why hide yourself?

It wasn’t His time to reveal His true identity

 

[mikesw]

You mean like how there are no teachings to worship Jesus in the Bible, no teaching to pray to him, no teachings to fast to him? Nothing in the gospel about believing Jesus is God to be saved? How about the two dozens names and titles Jesus doesn't share with God? How about Jesus having everything in common with his brothers? How about Jesus and the apostles standing in solidarity regarding the Father being the only true God? How about there just being nothing about the trinity in the Bible? You've already been shown the light about the topic. You've already been shown what the sin of idolatry is and how judgement is coming for you according to Scripture. You simply are not a follower of Jesus' teachings.

no one has said you have to believe Jesus in the Godhead to be saved. But it is rather uncertain that someone who teaches and promotes the denial of Jesus' divinity in the Godhead will be saved. Jesus does not have to teach to pray to him since it never has been wrong to pray to God. You just keep making stuff up so that it is hard to keep up with your misinformed doctrines.

 

[Runningman]

Neither did the Father

Next fallacy

Yes He did dozens of times.

Exodus 3
14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Exodus 20
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

 

[Runningman]

no one has said you have to believe Jesus in the Godhead to be saved. But it is rather uncertain that someone who teaches and promotes the denial of Jesus' divinity in the Godhead will be saved. Jesus does not have to teach to pray to him since it never has been wrong to pray to God. You just keep making stuff up so that it is hard to keep up with your misinformed doctrines.

And I could say the same about you. It certainly calls into question how someone who has no conscience about practicing idolatry would be actually be saved, but of course I defer all judgement to God. If the Scripture carries any weight then it does condemn idolators to hell. People who worship humans as God would be idolators according to Scripture. The fact this doesn't seem to worry you is telling of your state. The conscience sems seared and completely desensitized. I guarantee you can't use Scripture to tell me what my alleged sin is.

 

[civic]

Yes He did dozens of times.

Exodus 3
14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Exodus 20
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Nope “ Father “ is not mentioned in the passage.

That’s your man made theology adding to scripture which is eisegesis

 

[mikesw]

And I could say the same about you. It certainly calls into question how someone who has no conscience about practicing idolatry would be actually be saved, but of course I defer all judgement to God. If the Scripture carries any weight then it does condemn idolators to hell. People who worship humans as God would be idolators according to Scripture. The fact this doesn't seem to worry you is telling of your state. The conscience sems seared and completely desensitized. I guarantee you can't use Scripture to tell me what my alleged sin is.

If you could have made a convincing argument against the divinity of Christ in the Godhead, you may have had converts here. You only have a philosophical preference that makes you think that Jesus' mention of himself as the Son of God is not sufficient. You hold to one verse (John 17:3) out of context to deny that Christ Jesus as the Son of God could not be divine in the Godhead. You hold to a philosophical preference that John 1 is not sufficient to show Christ in the Godhead. You fail to recognize that the NT had no other Greek word to express Christ Jesus in the Godhead, so you use that as an excuse to deny the divinity he demonstrated.

When you make an absurd denial of the divinity of Christ in the Godhead, you need to have some decent argument to deny Christ's essence. You have not done that, but you complain against me because of your failure.

 

[Runningman]

Nope “ Father “ is not mentioned in the passage.

That’s your man made theology adding to scripture which is eisegesis

YHWH is directly identified as the Father repeatedly in the Old Testament and He repeatedly went around saying He's the only God (Deut. 32:6, Isaiah 63:16, 64:8, Psalm 86:26, Jeremiah 3:19, Malachi 2:10) yet is never called Son.

 

[Runningman]

If you could have made a convincing argument against the divinity of Christ in the Godhead, you may have had converts here. You only have a philosophical preference that makes you think that Jesus' mention of himself as the Son of God is not sufficient. You hold to one verse (John 17:3) out of context to deny that Christ Jesus as the Son of God could not be divine in the Godhead. You hold to a philosophical preference that John 1 is not sufficient to show Christ in the Godhead. You fail to recognize that the NT had no other Greek word to express Christ Jesus in the Godhead, so you use that as an excuse to deny the divinity he demonstrated.

When you make an absurd denial of the divinity of Christ in the Godhead, you need to have some decent argument to deny Christ's essence. You have not done that, but you complain against me because of your failure.

Here we are again with your "zero verse" religion. You can't even show us where the Bible says Jesus is in a Godhead, let alone a triune Godhead. What you are even arguing for? If you can't use the Bible to make your case, then what do you use? Which creed or writing did you get your beliefs from?

 

[mikesw]

Here we are again with your "zero verse" religion. You can't even show us where the Bible says Jesus is in a Godhead, let alone a triune Godhead. What you are even arguing for? If you can't use the Bible to make your case, then what do you use? Which creed or writing did you get your beliefs from?

the zero verses are numerous. You have not made a sufficient denial of their implications. There is no reason to listen to your misinterpretations. Why do you not try to refine your arguments into a convincing form? I graduated from grade school and do not need to be spoon fed truths from God.