Thomas... My Lord and my God

[synergy]

A will different than God's falls into the category of self-interests.

Jesus never ever had "a will different than God's" (the Father). More degradations of Jesus being spewed out from your heretical mind.

How else do you think Jesus was tempted? Temptation refers to the things that someone wants. Jesus was indeed tempted. Here let's look at it. Let me know if you don't like it.

Matthew 4 NIV
1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.

5Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’
7Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’

8Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9“All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.

11Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

In those verses a temptation was attempted on Jesus which utterly failed to materialize. At no time did Jesus ever demonstrate or possess "a will different than God's" (the Father). This shows just how far you're willing to incorrectly stigmatize Jesus for the sake of your heretical ideas.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus never ever had "a will different than God's" (the Father). More degradations of Jesus being spewed out from your heretical mind.

In those verses a temptation was attempted on Jesus which utterly failed to materialize. At no time did Jesus ever demonstrate or possess "a will different than God's" (the Father). This shows just how far you're willing to incorrectly stigmatize Jesus for the sake of your heretical ideas.

Jesus was tempted to sin according to the Bible, but resisted/overcame all.

 

[synergy]

Jesus was tempted to sin according to the Bible, but resisted/overcame all.

So where did Jesus ever demonstrate "a will different than God's" (the Father) or any "self-interest" as you falsely claimed?

 

[civic]

So where did Jesus ever demonstrate "a will different than God's" (the Father) or any "self-interest" as you falsely claimed?

crickets

 

[Runningman]

So where did Jesus ever demonstrate "a will different than God's" (the Father) or any "self-interest" as you falsely claimed?

The whole Bible Jesus demonstrated he is not God.

Luke 22
42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Philippians 2
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.

 

[Peterlag]

Communication happens by use of words. The biblical phrases happen to be words that translators used. Your philosophical preference for so-called "biblical phrases" is of course your choice of pursuit. But that does not hamper us other people from using normal English words. I'm sorry if communication is a difficult concept for you.

Your issue with him as the Son of God may address a limitation of the coverage or wording of the Trinitarian doctrine rather than a failure of it. I'm not able to pursue that now, but that does not decrease his essence of his Father. Until you disprove the verses that point to Christ's divinity, your Unitarian arguments are useless. Your simple "proof" texts do not cancel out the divinity of Christ in the Godhead.

I hope we can still be friends.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Do you believe God can raise from the dead?

Let me answer for you: Yes, you do.

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
John 2:18–21.

There ya go. Jesus is God and proved it by raising Himself from the dead.

The Son raised Himself from the dead.
The Father raised the Son from the dead.
And the Spirit raised the Son of God from the dead.

Do you deny Jesus is God by raising Himself from the dead?
Yes, you do. This proves you to be an unbeliever.

'Nuff said.

 

[synergy]

The whole Bible Jesus demonstrated he is not God.

You continue to be "high" like you said and it's definitely not because of any high ground.

Luke 22
42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Thank you for proving my point. By aligning his will with the Father's will, that proves that Jesus did not have "a will different than God's" (the Father). There was no difference in their wills. They were perfectly aligned.

Philippians 2
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.

Notice the fact that Jesus is "existing in the form of God". Who else have you seen that has that same God form? Oh, I forgot.. you said you are "high". That explains everything!!!

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

 

[civic]

You continue to be "high" like you said and it's definitely not because of any high ground.

Thank you for proving my point. By aligning his will with the Father's will, that proves that Jesus did not have "a will different than God's" (the Father). There was no difference in their wills. They were perfectly aligned.

Notice the fact that Jesus is "existing in the form of God". Who else have you seen that has that same God form? Oh, I forgot.. you said you are "high". That explains everything!!!

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

Yes the Phil 2 passage is a stumbling block for uni's and they will bow the knee to Him and confess He is YHWH. Hopefully on this side of glory before its to late on the other side when they stand before their Creator Jesus in Judgement.

 

[synergy]

Yes the Phil 2 passage is a stumbling block for uni's and they will bow the knee to Him and confess He is YHWH. Hopefully on this side of glory before its to late on the other side when they stand before their Creator Jesus in Judgement.

It's going to be strange with Uni's in Heaven. They're going to be the ones with arms folded in a corner refusing to send prayers and worship to Christ who sits on the Father's Throne with the Father.

 

[101G]

Yes the Phil 2 passage is a stumbling block for uni's and they will bow the knee to Him and confess He is YHWH. Hopefully on this side of glory before its to late on the other side when they stand before their Creator Jesus in Judgement.

Correct, the Lord Jesus is the ONLY CREATOR. he, JESUS, by himself, "ALONE" created everything. and the ONLY TRUE and ETERNAL, LIVING God.

there is none other than "HIM". in much GL.

101G

 

[Runningman]

You continue to be "high" like you said and it's definitely not because of any high ground.

Thank you for proving my point. By aligning his will with the Father's will, that proves that Jesus did not have "a will different than God's" (the Father). There was no difference in their wills. They were perfectly aligned.

Notice the fact that Jesus is "existing in the form of God". Who else have you seen that has that same God form? Oh, I forgot.. you said you are "high". That explains everything!!!

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

Wow we can align our will with the Father's will too. Are we God when we do that in your religion?

 

[Runningman]

Yes the Phil 2 passage is a stumbling block for uni's and they will bow the knee to Him and confess He is YHWH. Hopefully on this side of glory before its to late on the other side when they stand before their Creator Jesus in Judgement.

Philippians 2:5-11 is a Unitarian proof text. Observe the only one who is called God in the passage is the Father... being in the form of God means someone is not themselves God.

 

[Runningman]

It's going to be strange with Uni's in Heaven. They're going to be the ones with arms folded in a corner refusing to send prayers and worship to Christ who sits on the Father's Throne with the Father.

It's going to be strange with Trins in heaven. Refusing the sing to God on the throne with us:

Revelation 7
9After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”

 

[synergy]

Wow we can align our will with the Father's will too.

Yes. You don't always have to spit on God's will for your life. You can align your will with His will for your life.

Are we God when we do that in your religion?

Nope. Maybe in the Mormon religion but not in the Trinitarian religion. Don't confuse us with Mormons.

I take it that you believe that many besides Jesus are also "existing in the form of God"? Who else have you seen that has that same God form, without you being "high"?

 

[Runningman]

Yes. You don't always have to spit on God's will for your life. You can align your will with His will for your life.

Nope. Maybe in the Mormon religion but not in the Trinitarian religion. Don't confuse us with Mormons.

I take it that you believe that many besides Jesus are also "existing in the form of God"? Who else have you seen that has that same God form, without you being "high"?

So Jesus chose to do what we need to choose to do. He isn't God because he has an inherently different will than God. Even if we pretend Jesus is a god-man to humor you, neither the god nor the man had the same will as God, but instead had to make a choice to obey God. If Jesus was God, your philosophy would read like something like "God chose to have the will of God rather than God inherently having His own will." It's nonsense.

 

[Peterlag]

Do you believe God can raise from the dead?

Let me answer for you: Yes, you do.

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
John 2:18–21.

There ya go. Jesus is God and proved it by raising Himself from the dead.

The Son raised Himself from the dead.
The Father raised the Son from the dead.
And the Spirit raised the Son of God from the dead.

Do you deny Jesus is God by raising Himself from the dead?
Yes, you do. This proves you to be an unbeliever.

'Nuff said.

The obvious difficulty in John 2:19 is that Jesus said “I” will raise up this sanctuary, which causes some problems. One of them is that the other times the Bible speaks of Jesus getting up from the dead it is the Father, God, who raises Jesus, he does not raise himself. Many verses plainly state that it was God who raised Jesus (cf. Acts 2:32; 4:10; 5:30; Rom. 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; 1 Thess. 1:9-10. Also, another problem caused by Jesus saying “I will raise it up” is that Jesus died on the cross and so if Jesus was dead then he could not raise himself from the dead.

When a single passage seems to say something that is difficult and/or contradicts many other passages, we should not reinterpret the many clear passages so that they agree with the one contradictory verse. If we base our theology on an unclear or obscure text and ignore the clear passages, we inevitably fall into error. When dealing with a difficult passage that contradicts many clear passages, the correct approach is to consider other possibilities such as transmission errors, translation errors, or simply that the passage means something that we have not considered. Even if after considering other possibilities the obscure passage remains puzzling, we should not abandon the many clear passages and accept a contradictory interpretation.

 

[Runningman]

The obvious difficulty in John 2:19 is that Jesus said “I” will raise up this sanctuary, which causes some problems. One of them is that the other times the Bible speaks of Jesus getting up from the dead it is the Father, God, who raises Jesus, he does not raise himself. Many verses plainly state that it was God who raised Jesus (cf. Acts 2:32; 4:10; 5:30; Rom. 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; 1 Thess. 1:9-10. Also, another problem caused by Jesus saying “I will raise it up” is that Jesus died on the cross and so if Jesus was dead then he could not raise himself from the dead.

When a single passage seems to say something that is difficult and/or contradicts many other passages, we should not reinterpret the many clear passages so that they agree with the one contradictory verse. If we base our theology on an unclear or obscure text and ignore the clear passages, we inevitably fall into error. When dealing with a difficult passage that contradicts many clear passages, the correct approach is to consider other possibilities such as transmission errors, translation errors, or simply that the passage means something that we have not considered. Even if after considering other possibilities the obscure passage remains puzzling, we should not abandon the many clear passages and accept a contradictory interpretation.

This is a very sound approach to proper biblical exegesis, but I don’t think there is a problem with what Jesus said.

As you pointed out, the very same Jesus who said he will raise it (his body) up is the same Jesus that the Father raised from the dead and the very same Jesus who couldn’t save himself from death (Hebrews 5:7).

Furthermore, we don’t have any scripture about Jesus actually raising himself from the dead, contrary to what John 2:19 says.

My belief is that Jesus was speaking prophetically about what would happen or perhaps just repeating the the Father told him to say in that situation.

 

[Peterlag]

This is a very sound approach to proper biblical exegesis, but I don’t think there is a problem with what Jesus said.

As you pointed out, the very same Jesus who said he will raise it (his body) up is the same Jesus that the Father raised from the dead and the very same Jesus who couldn’t save himself from death (Hebrews 5:7).

Furthermore, we don’t have any scripture about Jesus actually raising himself from the dead, contrary to what John 2:19 says.

My belief is that Jesus was speaking prophetically about what would happen or perhaps just repeating the the Father told him to say in that situation.

I logged into https://www.christianityboard.com, but I'm still blocked from posting or replying. I have contacted management. I'm known there as Peterlag

 

[jeremiah1five]

The obvious difficulty in John 2:19 is that Jesus said “I” will raise up this sanctuary, which causes some problems. One of them is that the other times the Bible speaks of Jesus getting up from the dead it is the Father, God, who raises Jesus, he does not raise himself. Many verses plainly state that it was God who raised Jesus (cf. Acts 2:32; 4:10; 5:30; Rom. 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; 1 Thess. 1:9-10. Also, another problem caused by Jesus saying “I will raise it up” is that Jesus died on the cross and so if Jesus was dead then he could not raise himself from the dead.

When a single passage seems to say something that is difficult and/or contradicts many other passages, we should not reinterpret the many clear passages so that they agree with the one contradictory verse. If we base our theology on an unclear or obscure text and ignore the clear passages, we inevitably fall into error. When dealing with a difficult passage that contradicts many clear passages, the correct approach is to consider other possibilities such as transmission errors, translation errors, or simply that the passage means something that we have not considered. Even if after considering other possibilities the obscure passage remains puzzling, we should not abandon the many clear passages and accept a contradictory interpretation.

It doesn't cause any problems for me. Jesus Himself said that He would raise Himself from the dead after three days, which is what He did thus proving He is God.