Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Peterlag]

Wrong. There are several, that have already been shared with you. You refuse to accept the truth, and so I leave you to your willful defiance of God.

You have no answer because there's no such verse. So you pretend that you have but cannot list it. @101G at least tried with the following verse.

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me."

My reply to him...

There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. And John 14:1 does not say Jesus is God or that we should believe that Jesus is God or that we should confess that Jesus is God.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Well folks mock me on here all of the time. Is that what you're referring to?

Big difference between mocking against what is true verses mocking what is false .
ELISHA MOCKED the false gods BIG TIME .

 

[Doug Brents]

You have no answer because there's no such verse. So you pretend that you have but cannot list it. @101G at least tried with the following verse.

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me."

My reply to him...

There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. And John 14:1 does not say Jesus is God or that we should believe that Jesus is God or that we should confess that Jesus is God.

I have already given you the verses, but you refuse to accept them. It is not that they are not there. I have answers, but I do not throw pearls before swine.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

To each and all and to all that has breath
To all who ended up in the lake of fire they have only one person to thank , THEMSELVES
To each and all who ended up forever with GOD you have one and only one to thank , JESUS THE CHRIST .
NOW LETS GET BUSY PREACHING THE LORD and all HIS LOVELY BIBICAL DOCTRINE

 

[Peterlag]

I have already given you the verses, but you refuse to accept them. It is not that they are not there. I have answers, but I do not throw pearls before swine.

Yeah right. You see here's the problem. I'm an expert in the New Testament and that means the Epistles and so I can't even read the Scriptures anymore because I have most of it memorized. At best I can only skim it. So I laugh when people tell me it's in the Bible and I just have to read it. Because I know it's not there. We would think something this important would be taught by someone. A whole paragraph or chapter teaching it. And there's nothing but scraps or bits of a few words here and another half sentence somewhere else. There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. No verse that say Jesus is God or that we should believe that Jesus is God or that we should confess that Jesus is God.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yeah right. You see here's the problem. I'm an expert in the New Testament and that means the Epistles and so I can't even read the Scriptures anymore because I have most of it memorized. At best I can only skim it. So I laugh when people tell me it's in the Bible and I just have to read it. Because I know it's not there. We would think something this important would be taught by someone. A whole paragraph or chapter teaching it. And there's nothing but scraps or bits of a few words here and another half sentence somewhere else. There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. No verse that say Jesus is God or that we should believe that Jesus is God or that we should confess that Jesus is God.

The whole of the book of John is about the deity of Christ Jesus. If you have memorized the whole of the NT but can't see that, then you have wasted your time.

 

[Olde Tymer]

.
● John 20:24-28 . . But Thomas, one of the twelve, who was called The Twin, was
not with them when Jesus came. Consequently the other disciples would say to
him: We have seen the Lord! But he said to them: Unless I see in his hands the
print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand
into his side, I will certainly not believe.

. .Well, eight days later his disciples were again indoors, and Thomas with them.
Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and he stood in their midst and said:
May you have peace. Next he said to Thomas: Put your finger here, and see my
hands, and take your hand and stick it in to my side, and stop being unbelieving
but become believing. In answer Thomas said to him: My Lord and my God.

FAQ: Why does the Watchtower Society's Bible capitalize "God" in John 20:28 when
that spelling contradicts their opposition to Jesus' divinity?

REPLY: It is a Watchtower Society rule of thumb that capitalization is required when
the Greek noun theós is modified by the article ho.

However, I don't recommend making an issue of capitalization in this particular
incident because skilled JWs can easily dodge that bullet. They can easily dodge the
injuries too.

Instead, focus the attention upon Thomas' possessive pronoun because he not only
addressed Jesus as a deity; but also addressed him as "my" deity. In point of fact,
the Society's Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures ©1969
renders Thomas' statement like this:

"The Lord of me and the God of me."

Now if Thomas was a Jew; then his association with Jehovah was governed by the
covenant that Moses' people entered into with God per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers,
and Deuteronomy. The very first of the covenant's commandments forbids Jews to
have more than one deity; and by saying nothing to Thomas about addressing
someone other than Jehovah as his deity, Jesus would've been in violation right
along with Thomas because the Jews' covenant required him to protest.

● Lev 19:17 . .You should by all means reprove your associate, that you may not
bear sin along with him.

Now, the million-dollar question is: If Jesus was Thomas' deity, and if Jesus
permitted himself to be addressed as Thomas' deity; then why isn't Jesus the
Watchtower Society's deity?

NOTE: I've heard it suggested that Thomas' reaction "My lord and my God" was an
expletive somewhat similar to the modern expression OMG. Well, if so then I think
there was grounds for Jesus to scold Thomas for profanity because the covenant's
commandments forbid Jews to speak of God in an offhanded manner. But Jesus
said nothing about it.
_

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Yeah right. You see here's the problem. I'm an expert in the New Testament and that means the Epistles and so I can't even read the Scriptures anymore because I have most of it memorized. At best I can only skim it. So I laugh when people tell me it's in the Bible and I just have to read it. Because I know it's not there. We would think something this important would be taught by someone. A whole paragraph or chapter teaching it. And there's nothing but scraps or bits of a few words here and another half sentence somewhere else. There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. No verse that say Jesus is God or that we should believe that Jesus is God or that we should confess that Jesus is God.

Wow i whiff a ton of pride here my friend . And now you have compelled me to reveal something .
Now before i write it i just want you to know i am not writing this to boast at all in me but rather to expose you .
You wrote you are an expert in the new testament and epistels , And so YOU cannot even read the scriptures anymore because YOU
have most of it memorized .
First a lot of what you do have memorized was HOW it was presented to you , mens doctrines , mens ways of seeing things .
OH i have no doubt you have a lot memorized but what you learned was twisted and thus you have THEIR VERSION
of what it means MEMORIZED .
and secondily my friend , By the grace of GOD i have been in that bible , loving and reading it daily for hours
every day for almost nineteen years . YOU SURE DONT SEE ME SAYING , OH I HAVE NO NEED TO READ IT
i just skims over it cause I HAS IT MEMORIZED .
coming from a man WHO WONT EVEN read Revelations and other parts anymore . YA been decieved my friend .
Not only do i NEED To continue to be refreshed and reminded by the SPIRIT by THE truth in scripture ,
I LOVE DOING SO DAILY . SOMETHING went wrong with you my friend .
OH I KNOW why you skim over and dont read . cause we both know that when you read the bible
certain parts keep nagging at ya , AND YOU DONT WANT THAT , you just want to beleive what men said .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

The whole of the book of John is about the deity of Christ Jesus. If you have memorized the whole of the NT but can't see that, then you have wasted your time.

The only thing that man has memorized its the doctrines of men that explain away the parts that get in the way
of their own beleifs . he aint fooling me , let him not fool you either . You are correct my friend .
The mans own mouth said HE WONT read revelation . GEE i wonder why . OH yeah , JESUS EVEN SAYS I AM ALPHA and OMEGA
first and the last . HE dont want to be pricked or reminded that he is on the wrongpath . HE had rather beleive his men .

 

[Peterlag]

Wow i whiff a ton of pride here my friend . And now you have compelled me to reveal something .
Now before i write it i just want you to know i am not writing this to boast at all in me but rather to expose you .
You wrote you are an expert in the new testament and epistels , And so YOU cannot even read the scriptures anymore because YOU
have most of it memorized .
First a lot of what you do have memorized was HOW it was presented to you , mens doctrines , mens ways of seeing things .
OH i have no doubt you have a lot memorized but what you learned was twisted and thus you have THEIR VERSION
of what it means MEMORIZED .
and secondily my friend , By the grace of GOD i have been in that bible , loving and reading it daily for hours
every day for almost nineteen years . YOU SURE DONT SEE ME SAYING , OH I HAVE NO NEED TO READ IT
i just skims over it cause I HAS IT MEMORIZED .
coming from a man WHO WONT EVEN read Revelations and other parts anymore . YA been decieved my friend .
Not only do i NEED To continue to be refreshed and reminded by the SPIRIT by THE truth in scripture ,
I LOVE DOING SO DAILY . SOMETHING went wrong with you my friend .
OH I KNOW why you skim over and dont read . cause we both know that when you read the bible
certain parts keep nagging at ya , AND YOU DONT WANT THAT , you just want to beleive what men said .

I did not have the Bible memorized nor did I consider myself an expert in the Epistles after only reading it for 19 years. It came much later.

 

[Peterlag]

The whole of the book of John is about the deity of Christ Jesus. If you have memorized the whole of the NT but can't see that, then you have wasted your time.

Yeah I must have missed it. Now what verse exactly in John (which is not in the Epistles that I'm an expert in) says that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

 

[Peterlag]

Me and the trinity folks...​

Me: There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

Them: It's in John... you just need to read it.

Me: I must have missed it. What verse?

Them: We showed it to you and you will not believe the Bible.

Me: I must have missed it. What verse?

Them: We showed it to you already.

Me: Can I have the verse?

Them: We gave it to you already.

 

[Runningman]

Now ain't that the pot calling the kettle black. I have defended the deity of the Lord Jesus well. Are there other passages of Scripture that I have not listed that speak of His deity? Yes. Is it necessary to list them? No. The passages of Scripture, God's written word to us, that I have listed are sufficient to prove His deity.

Worshipping humans as God is idolatry in Scripture. Do you agree?

No, you have shown your contempt for the Scriptures that say He is, in fact, God. And they are all over Scripture.

I will agree Jesus is one of the elohim who are the sons of the Most High, but is not the Most High. Jesus is never called the Most High in the Bible. Different senses of god and deity in Scripture. Jesus isn't God Almighty nor ever called that either. Never called YHWH, the God of Abraham, the I AM, Lord of Hosts, Lord of heaven and earth, etc.

In order for Him to have taken on the form of a servant and be born as a man, a little lower than the angels, He had to have emptied Himself before that. He existed with God, and as a part of God, before Creation, because everything that exists was made by and through Him.

Your theory is nonsense. God emptied himself of God while he was still God? This is not an "orthodox Trinitarian" thought. One of the cardinal sins in Trinitarianism is dividing the essence. If you do that, you break the system.

Yes, I am ignoring your false doctrine. The word order you are trying to force on the thoughts found here contradict many other Scriptures. It is not just this one verse we must consider.

It doesn't contradict scripture nor the Greek. Do you still not believe the word order of John 10:36 places the "the" definite article before God and not son? This is tantamount to Internet foot stomping. Just go with what's true and don't make a big stink about it. The Bible says what it says. Deal with it.

Matthew 11
21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Again, you show your inability to comprehend the dual nature of Jesus. He was indeed fully man, but He was at the same time fully God. The statements that Jesus is God are found in many places in Scripture, and you have shown that you refuse to accept what Scripture says.

God doesn't have a human nature in the Bible.

Jesus is a human with a divine nature like so many others. You have no idea who Jesus is.

2 Peter 1
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

This seems to be a problem for you. You seem to think that certain passages of Scripture can be interpreted in isolation from the rest of Scripture.

The Father being the only true God is a major Biblical doctrine. Why do I keep doing your homework for you. Did you know the Father is YHWH?

But when we consider passages like John 1:1-3 & 14, and John 20:28, and John 10:25-33, and Col 1:15-20, and Heb 1:8, and many others, we must come to the conclusion that Jesus is in fact God. And then we must interpret passages like John 17:3 in light of this fact. This means that Jesus the man was acknowledging that the Father was greater than He was as a man, just as all humans must. But before He became a man He was completely equal with God, and had all the power, glory, knowledge, etc. that the Father has.

Already went over these and proved they don't say what you say they do. Do we need to go through them again? Where are you refutes against Scripture? Cat got your tongue already?

 

[Runningman]

No, you are not one of God's messengers.

It is you who are teaching a lie, and you who are trying to lead His people astray.

Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black? You have been here on your soap box for days preaching falsehoods about a trinity and you're accusing the Christians of lying about what Jesus said regarding the Father's exclusive deity.

 

[synergy]

What he emptied himself of was his own self-interests and will in order to serve and obey his God

"His own self-interests"????? You're stigmatizing Jesus as having been a self-interested self-absorbed individual. That's typical talk for all heretics. Heretics always end up stigmatizing Jesus.

because Jesus always had the fullness of God after his water baptism.

Tell us more about your heresies.

 

[Peterlag]

A very interesting verse this John 5:23...

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
That everyone should honor The Son as one honors The Father. He who does not honor The Son is not honoring The Father who sent him.

King James Bible
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

New International Version
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

New Living Translation
so that everyone will honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son is certainly not honoring the Father who sent him.

 

[mikesw]

Speaking of anti-Christ. There's a verse in 1 John I never really understood until a couple of months ago. This anti-Christ and testing the spirits. Yeah testing the spirits. I never tested the spirits. What does testing the spirits mean? And then it hit me after being on sites like this and hearing so many tell me that I need to have the holy spirit to understand the trinity. And others wrote that they know the trinity is real because God showed them. And that the holy spirit will teach you the trinity if you open your heart and pray. And that's when I wrote...

If the spirit is telling you that Jesus is God. That spirit is not from God. The spirit from God will say that Jesus came in the flesh. The false spirit will say God came in the flesh. There's your test of the spirit.

Jesus coming having come in the flesh only makes sense if he is divinity beforehand. You would not have to say a common man came in the flesh. The common human cannot do anything but come as flesh. This verse tends to speak about a problem of people who deny that God incarnate could appear in the flesh. To those anti-Christs with a Platonic conception, it would violate sensibility since the invisible realm is where the "form" exists in perfection. The physical would be imperfection and thus not be possible for the divine. The other idea would be that God only took on the appearance of humanity. Either one is a denial of the true Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus coming having come in the flesh only makes sense if he is divinity beforehand. You would not have to say a common man came in the flesh. The common human cannot do anything but come as flesh. This verse tends to speak about a problem of people who deny that God incarnate could appear in the flesh. To those anti-Christs with a Platonic conception, it would violate sensibility since the invisible realm is where the "form" exists in perfection. The physical would be imperfection and thus not be possible for the divine. The other idea would be that God only took on the appearance of humanity. Either one is a denial of the true Christ.

The Bible does not refer to Jesus as a "common man" or a "mere man" because the Scriptures refer to Jesus as the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord and Christ.

 

[mikesw]

The Bible does not refer to Jesus as a "common man" or a "mere man" because the Scriptures refer to Jesus as the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord and Christ.

Exactly. He was God incarnate. However, your early distortion of 2 John 4:2 fails to recognize that the reason to say he came in the flesh is because of his divine essence. I'm not sure how you think you are countering the point of this text referring to being in the divine essence before coming in the flesh.

 

[Runningman]

"His own self-interests"????? You're stigmatizing Jesus as having been a self-interested self-absorbed individual. That's typical talk for all heretics. Heretics always end up stigmatizing Jesus.

Tell us more about your heresies.

No. Jesus had his own will distinct from the will of God and had to make deliberate, conscious, choices to serve Him.

Luke 22
42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.