Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Peterlag]

The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”

There are a number of other New Testament verses that state Jesus was a man and we can see them in places like Romans that says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

1 Timothy 2:5 says that it's the man Jesus, who was the mediator between God and men. “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” This verse calls Jesus Christ a “man” even after his resurrection. Trinitarian doctrine tries to explain the verses that say Jesus was a man by saying that he was a man, but he was also 100% God at the same time. But there are problems with that such as there is no single verse that says Jesus was both God and man and that's why the God-man doctrine is built from many verses.

 

[Doug Brents]

So just to be clear... there's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

Wrong. There are several, that have already been shared with you. You refuse to accept the truth, and so I leave you to your willful defiance of God.

 

[Complete]

'Who, being in the form of God,
thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made Himself of no reputation,
and took upon Him the form of a servant,
and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man,
He humbled Himself,
and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him,
and given Him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.'
(Php 2:6-11)

Yes, Praise God! The Lord Jesus Christ took upon Himself the form of a servant: He came in the likeness of man in order to redeem. He is a life giving Spirit.

'And so it is written,
The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural;
and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy:
the second man is the Lord from heaven.'
(1Co 15:45-49)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Doug Brents]

Then why are you making an argument that I don't have the Holy Spirit based on my refutes of your false doctrines?

I don't have a false doctrine; the spirit within you is teaching you a false doctrine.

That's not in the Bible.

It is all over Scripture, and this has been shown to you several times already. Jesus is and was both man and God.

In your theory, Jesus didn't pre-exist as a human to empty himself of his deity because he would have been the deity already.

Not theory. But you are correct that Jesus did not exist as a human before He was incarnated as a human. He was God, pure spirit, with no physical form. Then He emptied Himself of the independent use of His power, His knowledge, His glory (but not His authority or deity) and became a human.

Actually, it's quite the opposite. Jesus was full of the Deity and so were others for that matter. For your argument to hold any water, you would have to contradict the entire New Testament that states Jesus was a man who God was with.

I don't have to contradict that at all. As a man, He was indeed a man whom God was with. But He was also God. Both are true.

The Passage in Philippians 2:5-8 is about telling the church of Philippi how to have the mind of Jesus, what to think, because Jesus was in the form (outward appearance) of God. What Jesus did and thought, Paul taught the people of Philippi it was attainable for them.

We can indeed have the mind that was in Christ Jesus when He was a man on Earth.

Sometimes you want to follow the word order and then when it's convenient you want to switch it up. There is no rule in Greek or English that would say what you're saying is the correct translation.

The word order in Greek is meaningless. It is the form of the word that tells us how the words should be ordered in English. I don't switch things up when it is convenient. I look at the way the words are formed and let them instruct on how they should be ordered. There is not a single translation out there that puts them in the order you want them. But every translation puts them as I did.

Then Jesus isn't God. Your "first century sons argument" was an epic fail.

Have I ever said that the Father and the Son are the same person? No. They are both the same God, but that is not the same as being the same person. Just as a husband and wife are one, but not the same person, so God is three united as one, but they do not become the same person just because they are united as one God.

No Jesus isn't God. Jesus and his disciples are all members of the same vine with the Father as a vinedresser. Haven't you read the Bible?

I have indeed read the Bible; many times.

 

[Complete]

deleted

 

[101G]

Where do you see Jesus saying he was God? There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me."

101G.

 

[101G]

The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”

Pete, are you that Ignorant, who do you think Man "IMAGE" is? answer... God. God is a man in flesh. scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Form here is
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313
See also: G3445, G3446, G4832

now listen closely. Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

Pete, there are only three entities. 1. God, 2. angels, and 3. us humans. just THINK..... if the Lord Jesus was MADE... "LOWER" ..... than the angels. logic dictates, and common sense tells us he had to be HIGHER than the angels in order to be made lower than the angels. THAT'S JUST PLAIN COMMON SENSE.

NOW WHO MADE THE Lord LOWER THAN THE ANGELS? answer, Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

he did it himself.

now, if you cannot believe the bible, why even argue? it is written.

101G.

 

[101G]

'Who, being in the form of God,
thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made Himself of no reputation,
and took upon Him the form of a servant,
and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man,
He humbled Himself,
and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him,
and given Him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.'
(Php 2:6-11)

Yes, Praise God! The Lord Jesus Christ took upon Himself the form of a servant: He came in the likeness of man in order to redeem. He is a life giving Spirit.

'And so it is written,
The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural;
and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy:
the second man is the Lord from heaven.'
(1Co 15:45-49)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Correct, for the Lord Jesus is the "First"/Father, and ALSO the "Last"/Son. supportive scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." clearly the LORD, all caps is the First. now this, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." that term "ALSO" means, "in addition; too". in addition to being the "First"/Father, he the LORD is the "Last"/Son.

these verses are clear as day. the LORD ... all caps is the First and the Last. and who is the First and the Last.... JESUS. Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea." Revelation 1:12 "And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;"

101G.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

I don't see Trump as a minister. I see him as the president of the United States.

Yeah , well if i were you , I WOULD NOT support or have anything to do with the interfaith side of this .
Many have put their trust into men rather than IN GOD alone .
Now the question is HOW do we know one has put their trust into men and NOT GOD .
WHEN said man can do things contrary to GOD and yet his folowers SUPPORT even that whcih he does that is
CONTRARY TO GOD , INTEFIATH is of anti christ . so whether or not you voted for trump does not concern me
WHAT concerns me is watching the protestant realm GO RIGHT INTO THIS INTERFAITH
THAT I KNOW IS OF THE DEVIL and NOT GOD .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

I don't see Trump as a minister. I see him as the president of the United States.

I want you to see something . SO after writing this i am gonna send something to you to REMIND you .
For years this wicked generation and many leaders of christendom have sold their people a lie
and led them RIGHT INTO bondage by doing so .
THEY sold us the idea ITS NOT LOVING , ITS NOT COMPASSIONATE to warn the brethren in sin .
They LIE . i have , for years , said otherwise that is is compassionate it is loving to warn those in sin and error .
In fact GOD is angry at those who allow false teachers within even christendom to teach and to seduce his people .
I have this AgAINST you , you ALLOW that false prophetess TO TEACH and TO SEDUCE my people .
GOD warns , HE sent the prophets to warn , The CHRIST warned as well , and later the apostels would warn and correct .
BUT WHY . for more info READ real slowly what i send next .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

I don't see Trump as a minister. I see him as the president of the United States.

 

[Runningman]

I don't have a false doctrine; the spirit within you is teaching you a false doctrine.

Are you God? Are you calling God a liar? Maybe you shouldn't be so arrogant as if your doctrines are unquestionable or infallible. As you can see, you cannot defend your beliefs in the trinity against Scripture. The last thing you should be doing is making the mistake about bad-mouthing God. Scripture says you're going to get yourself destroyed if you don't repent.

It is all over Scripture, and this has been shown to you several times already. Jesus is and was both man and God.

And I have shown to you many times how Jesus is not God. It's all over Scripture.

Not theory. But you are correct that Jesus did not exist as a human before He was incarnated as a human. He was God, pure spirit, with no physical form. Then He emptied Himself of the independent use of His power, His knowledge, His glory (but not His authority or deity) and became a human.


I don't have to contradict that at all. As a man, He was indeed a man whom God was with. But He was also God. Both are true.

We can indeed have the mind that was in Christ Jesus when He was a man on Earth.

Step 1: He emptied himself in heaven?
Step 2: He took on the form of a servant?

Your timeline contains a contradiction. Jesus didn't empty himself of anything prior to taking on the form of a servant. Jesus was born as a servant. What he emptied himself of was his own self-interests and will in order to serve and obey his God because Jesus always had the fullness of God after his water baptism. Your views on this are not scriptural.

The word order in Greek is meaningless. It is the form of the word that tells us how the words should be ordered in English. I don't switch things up when it is convenient. I look at the way the words are formed and let them instruct on how they should be ordered. There is not a single translation out there that puts them in the order you want them. But every translation puts them as I did.

The Greek text, the one that matters, puts them in the word order I said. You're going in circles now and ignoring what I just showed you.

Have I ever said that the Father and the Son are the same person? No. They are both the same God, but that is not the same as being the same person. Just as a husband and wife are one, but not the same person, so God is three united as one, but they do not become the same person just because they are united as one God.

Wrong again.

The Father is stated to be a distinct individual from the Son in Trinitarian thought. In Trinitarian thought, each of the three are God, yet not three Gods, but one God. While these sorts of statements can be found in creeds, they cannot be found in the Bible.

A statement contrary to the creeds is "You (Father) are the only true God." I believe Jesus either meant what he said in clear and certain terms or the Bible is unknowable to the common person and must be re-interpreted by gatekeepers who distribute the truth as they see it to others. That has already been tried before and the result was not good.

On the other hand, if the Bible is a book anyone can pick up, read, and understand then we must accept words have the meaning they do or we would not be able to communicate with each other, which is probably a separate issue in some cases. We may also reach a point where we need to discuss the words of the original Greek text and if they mean what they say they do or if Jesus was speaking about a specific context in which the Father is the only true God.

In this case, the word for "only" does appear in the Greek of John 17:3 and it refers to exclusive deity. Following Trinitarian thought, the Father and Son are not the same individual so it cannot be true for the Father and Son at the same time that they are each exclusively God, contrary to what John 17:3 says.

If there is a specific context in which the Father is the only true God, then one may imply that the Father is not the only true God in a universal sense and thus would diminish the glory/deity of the Father and we would be back to a language issue again.

We can try different approaches as well. I believe we can automatically rule out Jesus making a conditional statement in which the Father is the only true God because of X. This would place a condition on the Father in which he would only be God if conditions were met and imply he isn't God if said condition is not met. So this can't be a conditional statement either.

By process of elimination, since there isn't a specific contextual, conditional, or language issue in John 17:3 then I conclude that Jesus ruled himself out of being God. I believe we should make every attempt to try to understand the Bible around these kind of rare and unambiguous statements. Paul repeated the same idea in 1 Cor. 8:6 and Eph. 4:6.

I have indeed read the Bible; many times.

 

[Doug Brents]

Are you God? Are you calling God a liar? Maybe you shouldn't be so arrogant as if your doctrines are unquestionable or infallible. As you can see, you cannot defend your beliefs in the trinity against Scripture. The last thing you should be doing is making the mistake about bad-mouthing God. Scripture says you're going to get yourself destroyed if you don't repent.

Now ain't that the pot calling the kettle black. I have defended the deity of the Lord Jesus well. Are there other passages of Scripture that I have not listed that speak of His deity? Yes. Is it necessary to list them? No. The passages of Scripture, God's written word to us, that I have listed are sufficient to prove His deity.

And I have shown to you many times how Jesus is not God. It's all over Scripture.

No, you have shown your contempt for the Scriptures that say He is, in fact, God. And they are all over Scripture.

Step 1: He emptied himself in heaven?
Step 2: He took on the form of a servant?

Your timeline contains a contradiction. Jesus didn't empty himself of anything prior to taking on the form of a servant. Jesus was born as a servant. What he emptied himself of was his own self-interests and will in order to serve and obey his God because Jesus always had the fullness of God after his water baptism. Your views on this are not scriptural.

In order for Him to have taken on the form of a servant and be born as a man, a little lower than the angels, He had to have emptied Himself before that. He existed with God, and as a part of God, before Creation, because everything that exists was made by and through Him.

The Greek text, the one that matters, puts them in the word order I said. You're going in circles now and ignoring what I just showed you.

Yes, I am ignoring your false doctrine. The word order you are trying to force on the thoughts found here contradict many other Scriptures. It is not just this one verse we must consider.

Wrong again.

The Father is stated to be a distinct individual from the Son in Trinitarian thought. In Trinitarian thought, each of the three are God, yet not three Gods, but one God. While these sorts of statements can be found in creeds, they cannot be found in the Bible.

A statement contrary to the creeds is "You (Father) are the only true God." I believe Jesus either meant what he said in clear and certain terms or the Bible is unknowable to the common person and must be re-interpreted by gatekeepers who distribute the truth as they see it to others. That has already been tried before and the result was not good.

Again, you show your inability to comprehend the dual nature of Jesus. He was indeed fully man, but He was at the same time fully God. The statements that Jesus is God are found in many places in Scripture, and you have shown that you refuse to accept what Scripture says.

On the other hand, if the Bible is a book anyone can pick up, read, and understand then we must accept words have the meaning they do or we would not be able to communicate with each other, which is probably a separate issue in some cases. We may also reach a point where we need to discuss the words of the original Greek text and if they mean what they say they do or if Jesus was speaking about a specific context in which the Father is the only true God.

In this case, the word for "only" does appear in the Greek of John 17:3 and it refers to exclusive deity. Following Trinitarian thought, the Father and Son are not the same individual so it cannot be true for the Father and Son at the same time that they are each exclusively God, contrary to what John 17:3 says.

If there is a specific context in which the Father is the only true God, then one may imply that the Father is not the only true God in a universal sense and thus would diminish the glory/deity of the Father and we would be back to a language issue again.

We can try different approaches as well. I believe we can automatically rule out Jesus making a conditional statement in which the Father is the only true God because of X. This would place a condition on the Father in which he would only be God if conditions were met and imply he isn't God if said condition is not met. So this can't be a conditional statement either.

By process of elimination, since there isn't a specific contextual, conditional, or language issue in John 17:3 then I conclude that Jesus ruled himself out of being God. I believe we should make every attempt to try to understand the Bible around these kind of rare and unambiguous statements. Paul repeated the same idea in 1 Cor. 8:6 and Eph. 4:6.

This seems to be a problem for you. You seem to think that certain passages of Scripture can be interpreted in isolation from the rest of Scripture.

But when we consider passages like John 1:1-3 & 14, and John 20:28, and John 10:25-33, and Col 1:15-20, and Heb 1:8, and many others, we must come to the conclusion that Jesus is in fact God. And then we must interpret passages like John 17:3 in light of this fact. This means that Jesus the man was acknowledging that the Father was greater than He was as a man, just as all humans must. But before He became a man He was completely equal with God, and had all the power, glory, knowledge, etc. that the Father has.

 

[Peterlag]

View attachment 1435

Well folks mock me on here all of the time. Is that what you're referring to?

 

[Peterlag]

I want you to see something . SO after writing this i am gonna send something to you to REMIND you .
For years this wicked generation and many leaders of christendom have sold their people a lie
and led them RIGHT INTO bondage by doing so .
THEY sold us the idea ITS NOT LOVING , ITS NOT COMPASSIONATE to warn the brethren in sin .
They LIE . i have , for years , said otherwise that is is compassionate it is loving to warn those in sin and error .
In fact GOD is angry at those who allow false teachers within even christendom to teach and to seduce his people .
I have this AgAINST you , you ALLOW that false prophetess TO TEACH and TO SEDUCE my people .
GOD warns , HE sent the prophets to warn , The CHRIST warned as well , and later the apostels would warn and correct .
BUT WHY . for more info READ real slowly what i send next .

Yeah and it's a big lie the Christians are taught by their ministers. The trinity is gotta be the biggest lie ever.

 

[Doug Brents]

Well folks mock me on here all of the time. Is that what you're referring to?

No, you are not one of God's messengers.

Yeah and it's a big lie the Christians are taught by their ministers. The trinity is gotta be the biggest lie ever.

It is you who are teaching a lie, and you who are trying to lead His people astray.

 

[Peterlag]

Yeah , well if i were you , I WOULD NOT support or have anything to do with the interfaith side of this .
Many have put their trust into men rather than IN GOD alone .
Now the question is HOW do we know one has put their trust into men and NOT GOD .
WHEN said man can do things contrary to GOD and yet his folowers SUPPORT even that whcih he does that is
CONTRARY TO GOD , INTEFIATH is of anti christ . so whether or not you voted for trump does not concern me
WHAT concerns me is watching the protestant realm GO RIGHT INTO THIS INTERFAITH
THAT I KNOW IS OF THE DEVIL and NOT GOD .

Speaking of anti-Christ. There's a verse in 1 John I never really understood until a couple of months ago. This anti-Christ and testing the spirits. Yeah testing the spirits. I never tested the spirits. What does testing the spirits mean? And then it hit me after being on sites like this and hearing so many tell me that I need to have the holy spirit to understand the trinity. And others wrote that they know the trinity is real because God showed them. And that the holy spirit will teach you the trinity if you open your heart and pray. And that's when I wrote...

If the spirit is telling you that Jesus is God. That spirit is not from God. The spirit from God will say that Jesus came in the flesh. The false spirit will say God came in the flesh. There's your test of the spirit.

 

[Doug Brents]

If the spirit is telling you that Jesus is God. That spirit is not from God. The spirit from God will say that Jesus came in the flesh. The false spirit will say God came in the flesh. There's your test of the spirit.

That is precisely backwards.

 

[Peterlag]

Pete, are you that Ignorant, who do you think Man "IMAGE" is? answer... God. God is a man in flesh. scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Form here is
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313
See also: G3445, G3446, G4832

now listen closely. Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

Pete, there are only three entities. 1. God, 2. angels, and 3. us humans. just THINK..... if the Lord Jesus was MADE... "LOWER" ..... than the angels. logic dictates, and common sense tells us he had to be HIGHER than the angels in order to be made lower than the angels. THAT'S JUST PLAIN COMMON SENSE.

NOW WHO MADE THE Lord LOWER THAN THE ANGELS? answer, Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

he did it himself.

now, if you cannot believe the bible, why even argue? it is written.

101G.

Don't worry I will rewrite it for you...

The apostles also taught Jesus was a God-man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a God-man approved of Himself: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a God-man approved of Himself among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which Jesus did by Himself in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a God-man and that God did miracles “by Himself.” Paul also taught Jesus was a God-man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the God-man whom Himself appointed”

 

[Peterlag]

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me."

101G.

There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. And John 14:1 does not say Jesus is God or that we should believe that Jesus is God or that we should confess that Jesus is God.