Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Doug Brents]

“I am the one.” Many Trinitarians argue that this verse states that when Jesus said “I am” he was claiming to be God, (i.e., Yahweh, the God who revealed Himself to Moses in the Old Testament). But saying “I am” does not mean a person is claiming to be God. The Greek that is translated as “I am” is egō eime (ἐγὼ εἰμί), and it was a common Greek way for a person to identify themself. For example, only ten verses after Jesus said, egō eime (“I am”) in John 8:58, the man who had been born blind identified himself by saying exactly what Jesus said; egō eime (“I am;” John 9:9). Thus, Jesus and the man born blind both identified themselves by saying egō eime (“I am”) only ten verses apart.

Sadly, unless a person looks at the Greek text, he will never see that “I am” was a common Greek way for a man or woman to identify themselves. In what seems to be a clear case of Trinitarian bias in translating the Greek text, when Jesus says, egō eime (“I am”) in John 8:58, the English Bibles read, “I am.” But when Jesus says egō eime in other places in the New Testament, or other people say egō eime (“I am”), the Greek phrase gets translated differently. So, for example, some English translations of what the man born blind said are: “I am the one” (CJB, HCSB, NASB, NET); “I am he” (BBE, RV, KJV, YLT); “It is I” (DBY); and, “I am the man” (ESV, NIV). The only commonly used English Bible that has “I am” in John 9:9 is the New American Bible.

There are many other examples of the phrase egō eime not being translated as “I am” but being translated as “I am he” or some other similar phrase. For example, Jesus taught that people would come in his name, saying egō eime (“I am he”) and will deceive many (Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8 (HCSB, ESV, NAB, NET, NIV).

Jesus said egō eime (“I am”) in a large number of places, but it is usually translated “I am he,” “It is I” or “I am the one” which are good translations because, as was stated above, egō eime was commonly used by people to identify themselves. Examples of Jesus using egō eime include: John 13:19; 18:5, 6, and 18:8; Jesus identifying himself to the apostles on the boat: Matthew 14:27; Mark 6:50; and John 6:20; and Jesus identifying himself to the Jews, saying egō eime, translated “I am the one I claim to be” (John 8:24 and 8:28 NIV84). All these places where Jesus says egō eime but it is not translated “I am” shows that the translators understand that just saying egō eime does not mean the person is claiming to be God.

At the Last Supper, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny Christ. They used egō eime as the standard Greek identifier. Jesus had said one of them would betray him, and one after another they said to him, mētiegō eime, Kurie (literally, “not I am, Lord;” Matt. 26:22 and 26:25.) The apostles were not trying to deny that they were God by saying, “Not I am.” They were simply using as the common personal identifier egō eime and saying, “Surely not I, Lord.”

In Acts 26:29, when Paul was defending himself in court, he said, “I pray to God that…all who hear me this day would become the same as I am [egō eime].” Obviously, Paul was not claiming to be God. There are more uses of the phrase “I am,” and especially so if we realize that what has been covered above is only the nominative singular pronoun and the first-person singular verb that we have just covered. The point is this: “I am” was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. C. K. Barrett writes:

A major problem that occurs when we misunderstand a verse is that the correct meaning goes unnoticed, and that certainly is the case with John 8:58. If the phrase egō eime in John 8:58 were translated “I am he” or “I am the one,” like all the other places where Jesus says it, instead of coming to the erroneous conclusion that Jesus is God, we would more easily see that Jesus was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God who was foretold throughout the Old Testament.

This has already been addressed. You already believe that Jesus was just a man, so you refuse to see the truth. But this is not the only way in which He said He was God. It is just the easiest for you to disregard, so you attack it first. So let's move on to other ways in which He demonstrated and state His deity.

Trinitarians assert that because Jesus was “before” Abraham, Jesus must have been God. But Jesus did not literally exist before his conception in Mary, but he “existed” in the plan of God, and was foretold in prophecy.

This is just preposterous. There are numerous passages that speak of Jesus' preexistence.
John 1:1-4,14 says quite clearly and emphatically that Jesus is the "Word of God" and that He was not only there with God, but that He was God, and that everything that was made was made through Him (meaning He cannot have been a created being), and then He became flesh and lived a life on Earth.
John 3:13; 6:33, 38, 62; 8:23; 16:28 are several places where Jesus is speaking, and He says that no one has gone up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, Himself. Man's souls, contrary to common movie portrayal, do not come down from Heaven after standing around in a long line waiting on their turn to become a person. A new soul is created when a new person is conceived. But Jesus was not a new soul created when He was conceived. He was the Spirit of God that came down out of Heaven into the body made for Him by the Holy Spirit within Mary.
John 17:5 is self explanatory.
Romans 8:3; 1 John 1:2; Galatians 4:4 - Jesus preexisted with the Father
John 1:2–3; Colossians 1:16–17; Hebrews 1:2 - Jesus as the Creator
Matthew 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; 20:28 - Jesus is worshiped, something that is reserved only for God, and He NEVER rejected it.

I could go on and on. But I will let you attempt to reject these proofs as well before I do.

 

[Doug Brents]

The million dollar question for me is why do so many fight tooth and nail to defend something that is not there. More and more I'm starting to think without the trinity they have nothing. There whole belief system is based on a lie.

The trinity is mentioned in several passages.
Matt 28:19
2 Cor 13:14
Matt 3:16-17
John 14:16-17, Luke 3:21-22
1 Pet 1:2

These passages of Scripture are quite clear that the three are all God, but they are different from each other, and are manifest and do things in different ways.

 

[Runningman]

so the Jews were just pretending to get ready to kill Jesus for blasphemy? I'm not sure in what world that makes sense, nor any other aspect of your eisegesis here.

They wanted to kill Jesus already for the various things he said and did, but that doesn't mean they accurately understood him.

Actually, Jesus called their charges an accusation. It means that if Jesus called what they said an accusation, it means that the charge of him claiming to be God was false. Therefore, Jesus considered a claim to being God a sin. Seems you and the Pharisees have no idea who Jesus is. Are you ready to know the real Jesus?

John 10 (NIV)
33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’? 35If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

 

[Runningman]

If you like to apply distinctly different Pagan doctrines, that just shows you just follow pagan religions. Those pagan ideas are distinctly different -- not a Triune God. Also, Satan could create crude parallels in other religions (making sense only within the pagan pantheon conception) to distract from the true God.
The reason I follow the Trinity is that it best explains scripture, not because you call God as being defined by pagans.

I am aware that trinitarianism is similar to other pagan religions. It doesn't mean I follow them or that I agree with them. Actually, I didn't know about them until you people kept trying to force the trinity on everyone. After that, I needed to look up where you people got your ideas from and found it.

So yes your religion is very similar to others. It's not a new idea nor original.

Sumeria​

"The universe was divided into three regions each of which became the domain of a god. Anu's share was the sky. The earth was given to Enlil. Ea became the ruler of the waters. Together they constituted the triad of the Great Gods" (The Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology, 1994, pp. 54-55)

Babylonia​

"The ancient Babylonians recognised the doctrine of a trinity, or three persons in one god—as appears from a composite god with three heads forming part of their mythology, and the use of the equilateral triangle, also, as an emblem of such trinity in unity" (Thomas Dennis Rock, The Mystical Woman and the Cities of the Nations, 1867, pp. 22-23).

India​

"The Puranas, one of the Hindoo Bibles of more than 3,000 years ago, contain the following passage: 'O ye three Lords! know that I recognize only one God. Inform me, therefore, which of you is the true divinity, that I may address to him alone my adorations.' The three gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva [or Shiva], becoming manifest to him, replied, 'Learn, O devotee, that there is no real distinction between us. What to you appears such is only the semblance. The single being appears under three forms by the acts of creation, preservation, and destruction, but he is one.'

"Hence the triangle was adopted by all the ancient nations as a symbol of the Deity . . . Three was considered among all the pagan nations as the chief of the mystical numbers, because, as Aristotle remarks, it contains within itself a beginning, a middle, and an end. Hence we find it designating some of the attributes of almost all the pagan gods" (Sinclair, pp. 382-383).

Greece​

"In the Fourth Century B.C. Aristotle wrote: 'All things are three, and thrice is all: and let us use this number in the worship of the gods; for, as the Pythagoreans say, everything and all things are bounded by threes, for the end, the middle and the beginning have this number in everything, and these compose the number of the Trinity'" (Arthur Weigall, Paganism in Our Christianity, 1928, pp. 197-198).

Egypt​

"The Hymn to Amun decreed that 'No god came into being before him (Amun)' and that 'All gods are three: Amun, Re and Ptah, and there is no second to them. Hidden is his name as Amon, he is Re in face, and his body is Ptah.' . . . This is a statement of trinity, the three chief gods of Egypt subsumed into one of them, Amon. Clearly, the concept of organic unity within plurality got an extraordinary boost with this formulation. Theologically, in a crude form it came strikingly close to the later Christian form of plural Trinitarian monotheism" (Simson Najovits, Egypt, Trunk of the Tree, Vol. 2, 2004, pp. 83-84).

Other areas​

Many other areas had their own divine trinities. In Greece they were Zeus, Poseidon and Adonis. The Phoenicians worshipped Ulomus, Ulosuros and Eliun. Rome worshipped Jupiter, Neptune and Pluto. In Germanic nations they were called Wodan, Thor and Fricco. Regarding the Celts, one source states, "The ancient heathen deities of the pagan Irish[,] Criosan, Biosena, and Seeva, or Sheeva, are doubtless the Creeshna [Krishna], Veeshnu [Vishnu], [or the all-inclusive] Brahma, and Seeva [Shiva], of the Hindoos" (Thomas Maurice, The History of Hindostan, Vol. 2, 1798, p. 171).

source: https://www.ucg.org/learn/bible-stu...-ancient-trinitarian-gods-influenced-adoption

 

[Doug Brents]

I agree about context. In the context of John 8:58, Jesus had been speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees. The very same Jesus who said the Father taught him (John 8:28) is the same Jesus who said he is a man who heard the truth from God in John 8:40. How could Jesus be the omniscient I AM when this very same Jesus said he needed to be taught and is a man?

This is very simply explained. Scripture is clear that Jesus "emptied Himself". He left His glory, knowledge, even His power in Heaven and He became even lower than the angels of Heaven; He became a man. He did not do anything by His own power, but received all His knowledge through study and through the Holy Spirit. He also did all His miracles through the Holy Spirit's power, not His own.

There is a local and global context in Scripture. Acts 3:13 says Jesus is the son or servant of the God of Abraham, yet Exodus 3:14,15 says the I AM is the God of Abraham.

To me it looks like Jesus and the I AM aren't the same person. I am inclined to interpret John 8:58 as a statement that Jesus was the man who existed before Abraham. Since Jesus didn't literally exist before Abraham, then Jesus was speaking about existing before Abraham in prophecy. For example, there are prophecies about Jesus before Abraham, but no one identified as God's Son or the Word or a like title there saying or doing anything before Abraham.

So to me it just looks like Jesus and God aren't the same.

If that is the only passage of Scripture you look at, then I could see your point and your problem with this idea. But that is not the only place where it is addressed. Review the passages I list in post #421 & 422, and see how God's Word shows clearly that Jesus is in fact equal with God, and is to be worshiped as God.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

If I'm right and I believe I'm 100 percent right concerning this trinity. And since it's a false concept of Christianity. Then there has to be a big reason why the devil came up with it and continues to fight for it. I think it's a form of idolatry as one worships a God-Man. And if you can't go through Jesus to get to God then God does not get His worship. The spirit of Christ is destroyed because that has been wiped out when they made the spirit God. So what you have left is no Christian base, but self being worshiped as they try to be good and walk like Jesus did.

Ever wonder why paul often writes about the Spirit of GOD that is within us and also says the Spirit of Christ .
GOD IS HIS SPIRIT as HE IS HIS WORD .
But i have a very important question for all to hear .
Because i notice something . From both sides on this subject .
Most whether they claim The correct version of the Godhead are themselves
DENYING GOD . IF we deny , try and twist and omit the words of CHRIST in any shape form or fashion ,
IF we are creating another image of GOD and of His Christ
WHICH now has made the road to GOD so broad as it accepts sins and even unbeleif
WE DENYING GOD and follow that which is of anti christ and has come
to merge all religions as one to beleive they all serve GOD and His love . WHEN IN FACT its satan .
SO i just wanted to remind us about THAT .
Many have created and fallen very deeply in love
with The love god . You might be wondering why that love or that god
was not captilzed . CAUSE IT AINT GOD and IT AINT HIS LOVE they preach at all .
Its the delusion of the all inclusion and that iamge of what they so desire and desired to be GOD
that they now follow . Charity rejoices in truth , not in a SIN accepting fat lie broad path stink .
So beware any and all who have become in any way
partakers of the motto judge not correct not which has led them to ONLY correcting those who bring biblical
truth which exposes what the many love , THEIR SIN . And now
through seeker friendly they have come to not only accept certain sins , but NOW EVEN UNBELEIF ITSELF .
This is not about too end too well for this generation either .

 

[Runningman]

If I'm right and I believe I'm 100 percent right concerning this trinity. And since it's a false concept of Christianity. Then there has to be a big reason why the devil came up with it and continues to fight for it. I think it's a form of idolatry as one worships a God-Man. And if you can't go through Jesus to get to God then God does not get His worship. The spirit of Christ is destroyed because that has been wiped out when they made the spirit God. So what you have left is no Christian base, but self being worshiped as they try to be good and walk like Jesus did.

I think Trinitarianism is probably an attack on the deity of the Father. I actually just realized this yesterday, but since Jesus is not omniscient, omnipotent, nor omnipresent then to say he is God is to actually reduce who God is and lessen His divine qualities. I think they probably use the hypostatic union theory to try to workaround it, but actually I think it makes it worse because it stills requires God changing and being a man who can be tempted in all ways.

 

[Runningman]

Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.

Couldn't agree more. Look to the Prots and Caths for the perfect guide on what not to do and avoid.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Couldn't agree more. Look to the Prots and Caths for the perfect guide on what not to do and avoid.

And yet what if i told you that in large mass already we have even many who DO just this .
YET beleive its love and of GOD .

 

[Marvelloustime]

Ever wonder why paul often writes about the Spirit of GOD that is within us and also says the Spirit of Christ .
GOD IS HIS SPIRIT as HE IS HIS WORD .
But i have a very important question for all to hear .
Because i notice something . From both sides on this subject .
Most whether they claim The correct version of the Godhead are themselves
DENYING GOD . IF we deny , try and twist and omit the words of CHRIST in any shape form or fashion ,
IF we are creating another image of GOD and of His Christ
WHICH now has made the road to GOD so broad as it accepts sins and even unbeleif
WE DENYING GOD and follow that which is of anti christ and has come
to merge all religions as one to beleive they all serve GOD and His love . WHEN IN FACT its satan .
SO i just wanted to remind us about THAT .
Many have created and fallen very deeply in love
with The love god . You might be wondering why that love or that god
was not captilzed . CAUSE IT AINT GOD and IT AINT HIS LOVE they preach at all .
Its the delusion of the all inclusion and that iamge of what they so desire and desired to be GOD
that they now follow . Charity rejoices in truth , not in a SIN accepting fat lie broad path stink .
So beware any and all who have become in any way
partakers of the motto judge not correct not which has led them to ONLY correcting those who bring biblical
truth which exposes what the many love , THEIR SIN . And now
through seeker friendly they have come to not only accept certain sins , but NOW EVEN UNBELEIF ITSELF .
This is not about too end too well for this generation either .

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY

 

[Runningman]

This is very simply explained. Scripture is clear that Jesus "emptied Himself". He left His glory, knowledge, even His power in Heaven and He became even lower than the angels of Heaven; He became a man. He did not do anything by His own power, but received all His knowledge through study and through the Holy Spirit. He also did all His miracles through the Holy Spirit's power, not His own.

So basically you believe Jesus stopped being God and then became God again later?

If that is the only passage of Scripture you look at, then I could see your point and your problem with this idea. But that is not the only place where it is addressed. Review the passages I list in post #421 & 422, and see how God's Word shows clearly that Jesus is in fact equal with God, and is to be worshiped as God.

I've already read all of those verses. I understand the argument you're making, but if that is all you're looking at then you may miss the fact that there are no teachings or commandments to worship Jesus in the Bible. Also, there is plenty that says Jesus is not equal with God. On the matter of worship, Jesus only worshipped the Father and taught others to do that. Christians do what Jesus does.

John 4
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 14
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

[Doug Brents]

So basically you believe Jesus stopped being God and then became God again later?

No. He never ceased being God. Like the prince in, "The Prince and the Pauper". The prince never ceased to be prince (although he did become king when his father died), but he did not have his power, authority, or wealth while he was outside the castle in the place of the pauper. Jesus was still God, and still deserving of praise and worship (which He accepted when it was given).

I've already read all of those verses. I understand the argument you're making, but if that is all you're looking at then you may miss the fact that there are no teachings or commandments to worship Jesus in the Bible. Also, there is plenty that says Jesus is not equal with God. On the matter of worship, Jesus only worshipped the Father and taught others to do that. Christians do what Jesus does.

Did anyone ever worship Jesus while He was on Earth? Yes.
Did He ever tell anyone NOT to worship Him, or stop them when they were worshiping Him? No.
Is it a sin to accept worship that is only to be given to God? Yes.
So if Jesus accepted worship that is only to be given to God, then either He sinned, or He is God. Those are the only two options. If He sinned, then He is not worthy to be our savior. If He did not sin, then He is God and is worthy of our worship even today.

Of course Jesus pointed us to the Father, because at the time He was living as a man. A prince points to the king as greater than he, and Jesus lowered Himself not just to prince, but to the lowliest servant; He had no power of His own at the time. But because He lowered Himself so low, the Father raised Him back up to equal with Himself again.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Couldn't agree more. Look to the Prots and Caths for the perfect guide on what not to do and avoid.

but what most dont relalize is this merger , this lets find common ground
this inclusivity ,this interfaith , ITS ALL of that same realm
ONLY NOW it has comein under the guise its love and of GOD .
Meant only once again to merge not just the denominations but even the false religoins TO BE AS ONE
under IT , its version of love and of God

 

[Runningman]

And yet what if i told you that in large mass already we have even many who DO just this .
YET beleive its love and of GOD .

but what most dont relalize is this merger , this lets find common ground
this inclusivity ,this interfaith , ITS ALL of that same realm
ONLY NOW it has comein under the guise its love and of GOD .
Meant only once again to merge not just the denominations but even the false religoins TO BE AS ONE
under IT , its version of love and of God

Do you believe all of the world religions should find a way to merge into one?

 

[civic]

So basically you believe Jesus stopped being God and then became God again later?


I've already read all of those verses. I understand the argument you're making, but if that is all you're looking at then you may miss the fact that there are no teachings or commandments to worship Jesus in the Bible. Also, there is plenty that says Jesus is not equal with God. On the matter of worship, Jesus only worshipped the Father and taught others to do that. Christians do what Jesus does.

John 4
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 14
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

thats not the historical, orthodox or biblical definition of the Incarnation that he presented but hererodox position known as kenosis. I have a few threads on this topic from an orthodox and biblical perspective. The Son at all times remained fully God as per Col 1:19 and 2:9. There is no difference in Deity between the Father and Son. The Divine nature is the same in both the Father and Son.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

No. He never ceased being God. Like the prince in, "The Prince and the Pauper". The prince never ceased to be prince (although he did become king when his father died), but he did not have his power, authority, or wealth while he was outside the castle in the place of the pauper. Jesus was still God, and still deserving of praise and worship (which He accepted when it was given).

I understand. So if Jesus was always who you said he is and retained that status then why, among other things, did he become lower than angels? Why did he achieve power and authority he previously didn't have?

Also, let's look at John 17:5. What was the glory that Jesus had with the Father before the world was and how did Jesus also give that same glory to his disciples in John 17:22?

Did anyone ever worship Jesus while He was on Earth? Yes.

The words for worship in the New Testament actually just mean to bow down or just become prostrate, but the kind of worship Jesus taught others to give to God is the "spirit and truth" variety. So bowing isn't the same thing as spirit and truth worship.

Did He ever tell anyone NOT to worship Him, or stop them when they were worshiping Him? No.

Possibly yes Jesus refused worship if Revelation 22:8,9 is Jesus talking. The context is about John talking to a messenger of God and then suddenly in Revelation 22:12 it's Jesus talking.

Is it a sin to accept worship that is only to be given to God? Yes.

Yes.

So if Jesus accepted worship that is only to be given to God, then either He sinned, or He is God. Those are the only two options. If He sinned, then He is not worthy to be our savior. If He did not sin, then He is God and is worthy of our worship even today.

I don't know that having no comment is equal to "accepting" worship. Someone could worship you and inside you detest it and disagree, but saying nothing isn't the same as an agreement.

Of course Jesus pointed us to the Father, because at the time He was living as a man. A prince points to the king as greater than he, and Jesus lowered Himself not just to prince, but to the lowliest servant; He had no power of His own at the time. But because He lowered Himself so low, the Father raised Him back up to equal with Himself again.

The only problem is that Jesus isn't said to have pre-existed as God prior to the humbling, emptying, lowering, etc. Actually, there is plenty of evidence that Jesus and God are not the same person and that Jesus will not always retain his Lordship over the church.

1 Corinthians 15
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Peterlag]

Ever wonder why paul often writes about the Spirit of GOD that is within us and also says the Spirit of Christ .
GOD IS HIS SPIRIT as HE IS HIS WORD .
But i have a very important question for all to hear .
Because i notice something . From both sides on this subject .
Most whether they claim The correct version of the Godhead are themselves
DENYING GOD . IF we deny , try and twist and omit the words of CHRIST in any shape form or fashion ,
IF we are creating another image of GOD and of His Christ
WHICH now has made the road to GOD so broad as it accepts sins and even unbeleif
WE DENYING GOD and follow that which is of anti christ and has come
to merge all religions as one to beleive they all serve GOD and His love . WHEN IN FACT its satan .
SO i just wanted to remind us about THAT .
Many have created and fallen very deeply in love
with The love god . You might be wondering why that love or that god
was not captilzed . CAUSE IT AINT GOD and IT AINT HIS LOVE they preach at all .
Its the delusion of the all inclusion and that iamge of what they so desire and desired to be GOD
that they now follow . Charity rejoices in truth , not in a SIN accepting fat lie broad path stink .
So beware any and all who have become in any way
partakers of the motto judge not correct not which has led them to ONLY correcting those who bring biblical
truth which exposes what the many love , THEIR SIN . And now
through seeker friendly they have come to not only accept certain sins , but NOW EVEN UNBELEIF ITSELF .
This is not about too end too well for this generation either .

I would commit if I understood what you're writing about. But I do not.

 

[Peterlag]

The trinity is mentioned in several passages.
Matt 28:19
2 Cor 13:14
Matt 3:16-17
John 14:16-17, Luke 3:21-22
1 Pet 1:2

These passages of Scripture are quite clear that the three are all God, but they are different from each other, and are manifest and do things in different ways.

Nothing about the Scripture that you post is clear or quite clear. The following verse is just one example. The communion of the spirit is born within all Christians at the time they get saved. See Acts chapter 2. There's no trinity in the following verse. Only if you see things that are not there.

2 Corinthians 13:14
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. (The second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.)

 

[Peterlag]

This has already been addressed. You already believe that Jesus was just a man, so you refuse to see the truth. But this is not the only way in which He said He was God. It is just the easiest for you to disregard, so you attack it first. So let's move on to other ways in which He demonstrated and state His deity.

This is just preposterous. There are numerous passages that speak of Jesus' preexistence.
John 1:1-4,14 says quite clearly and emphatically that Jesus is the "Word of God" and that He was not only there with God, but that He was God, and that everything that was made was made through Him (meaning He cannot have been a created being), and then He became flesh and lived a life on Earth.
John 3:13; 6:33, 38, 62; 8:23; 16:28 are several places where Jesus is speaking, and He says that no one has gone up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, Himself. Man's souls, contrary to common movie portrayal, do not come down from Heaven after standing around in a long line waiting on their turn to become a person. A new soul is created when a new person is conceived. But Jesus was not a new soul created when He was conceived. He was the Spirit of God that came down out of Heaven into the body made for Him by the Holy Spirit within Mary.
John 17:5 is self explanatory.
Romans 8:3; 1 John 1:2; Galatians 4:4 - Jesus preexisted with the Father
John 1:2–3; Colossians 1:16–17; Hebrews 1:2 - Jesus as the Creator
Matthew 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; 20:28 - Jesus is worshiped, something that is reserved only for God, and He NEVER rejected it.

I could go on and on. But I will let you attempt to reject these proofs as well before I do.

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[civic]

I understand. So if Jesus was always who you said he is and retained that status then why, among other things, did he become lower than angels? Why did he achieve power and authority he previously didn't have?

Also, let's look at John 17:5. What was the glory that Jesus had with the Father before the world was and how did Jesus also give that same glory to his disciples in John 17:22?


The words for worship in the New Testament actually just mean to bow down or just become prostrate, but the kind of worship Jesus taught others to give to God is the "spirit and truth" variety. So bowing isn't the same thing as spirit and truth worship.

Possibly yes Jesus refused worship if Revelation 22:8,9 is Jesus talking. The context is about John talking to a messenger of God and then suddenly in Revelation 22:12 it's Jesus talking.

Yes.


I don't know that having no comment is equal to "accepting" worship. Someone could worship you and inside you detest it and disagree, but saying nothing isn't the same as an agreement.


The only problem is that Jesus isn't said to have pre-existed as God prior to the humbling, emptying, lowering, etc. Actually, there is plenty of evidence that Jesus and God are not the same person and that Jesus will not always retain his Lordship over the church.

1 Corinthians 15
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

here is a good explanation


Psalm 8:5 is a prophecy about Jesus Christ. As the psalmist reflects on the glory of the Lord, his mind turns to the greatness of God’s creation. He also begins to think about man and asks this question in Psalm 8:4: “What is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him?” (ESV). Then verse 5 reads, “Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor” (ESV). (In the Hebrew text, “heavenly beings” is Elohim, a common name for God; the Septuagint has the word angelos, which means “angel.”) Psalm 8:6 continues, “You have given him dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet” (ESV). The psalmist understood from Genesis 1:26–28 that God gave mankind the authority to rule over the created world. The title “son of man” could refer to Adam as the head of the human race. Being created with a human body and given this authority, Adam was made “a little lower” than the angels, yet he was crowned with glory and honor because he was made in the image of God.

In Hebrews 2:6–8 the writer quotes Psalm 8:5 and then comments on the totality of creation’s subjection to the “son of man”: “In putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control” (ESV). Then the author of Hebrews identifies the “son of man” as Jesus Christ: “But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone” (verse 9, ESV).

Applying Psalm 8:5 to Jesus Christ, the writer of Hebrews applies the title “son of man” to Jesus. This stresses the humanity of Christ and his tie to the first Adam and sets Him apart as the greatest example of man. Jesus Christ is really the Second Adam, the new Adam, who has come to deal directly with what the first Adam brought upon mankind and could never defeat, namely death (see 1 Corinthians 15:45). The Gospel of Luke’s theme is that Jesus is the Son of man (see Luke 19:10); Jesus is the Second Adam come to deliver mankind from death, through His cross, burial, and empty tomb.

Also, by taking upon Himself sinless flesh in the Incarnation Jesus was made “a little lower than the heavenly beings.” Jesus “made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant” when He took on human flesh (Philippians 2:7). The Lawgiver placed Himself in subjection to the Law (Galatians 4:4). He who was rich became poor for our sakes (2 Corinthians 8:9). “The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:28). Angels marvel at the Incarnation and desire to look into the gospel (1 Peter 1:12).

Being made a “little lower than the angels” and taking on a body eternally did not in any way diminish the deity of Christ. Jesus never ceased to be God; He simply showed the meekness and condescension of God. After the Incarnation, He was the God-man.

As a result of His atoning work on the cross, Jesus was crowned with glory and honor, and He is now seated at the right hand of His heavenly Father (Colossians 3:1). The author of Hebrews points out that Jesus’ humble state was but temporary: “for a little while” He was made lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:7). Jesus is exalted above all angels, and some day every knee will bow at His name and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:9–11).

Believers in Christ will reign with Him in the future, glorious millennium. Christ will subject all things to Himself as the Second Adam. What the first Adam and his descendants failed to accomplish because of our sin (cf. Hebrews 2:8), the last Adam will accomplish, and the curse will be reversed (see Isaiah 65:17–25). All believers will share in Christ’s glory forever, living with Him in His new heaven and new earth. Without Jesus becoming “a little lower” than the angels, there would be no redemption for any of us. Praise the Lord that He humbled Himself to come to us and seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10). got?

hope this helps !!!