Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Peterlag]

I agree about context. In the context of John 8:58, Jesus had been speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees. The very same Jesus who said the Father taught him (John 8:28) is the same Jesus who said he is a man who heard the truth from God in John 8:40. How could Jesus be the omniscient I AM when this very same Jesus said he needed to be taught and is a man? There is a local and global context in Scripture. Acts 3:13 says Jesus is the son or servant of the God of Abraham, yet Exodus 3:14,15 says the I AM is the God of Abraham.

To me it looks like Jesus and the I AM aren't the same person. I am inclined to interpret John 8:58 as a statement that Jesus was the man who existed before Abraham. Since Jesus didn't literally exist before Abraham, then Jesus was speaking about existing before Abraham in prophecy. For example, there are prophecies about Jesus before Abraham, but no one identified as God's Son or the Word or a like title there saying or doing anything before Abraham.

So to me it just looks like Jesus and God aren't the same.

The million dollar question for me is why do so many fight tooth and nail to defend something that is not there. More and more I'm starting to think without the trinity they have nothing. There whole belief system is based on a lie.

 

[Runningman]

The first red flag should have been that the Catholics believe in the trinity because they have never been right about anything. I have had folks say well, the Catholics are wrong on everything, but they were right on the trinity.

I don't see Protestantism is really so much different than Catholicism, but if the Catholics are wrong about it all, it would certainly be beneficial to vet the trinity doctrine carefully.

 

[mikesw]

I find what I said to be quite powerful, especially concerning the context of John 8:58 being one that describes Jesus as lacking qualities inherent to the I AM. So the I AM, if as the Trinitarians propose, is literally a claim to deity, then Jesus effectively stripped the Father of His deity, or at least reduced Him in status, with that statement. I know Jesus would never do such a thing so I don't see it like how you do. I also see Acts 3:13 placing the God of Abraham and Jesus beside each other in the same sentence and describing them each differently. YHWH (the I AM) and Jesus aren't members of a triune Godhead together,

Your denial of Christ is quite strong. Your counter passage is just recognizing the preaching of Jesus' humanity, not a denial of his divinity in the Godhead. I do often check the verses and am surprised. It is surprising you refer to verses that do not support your contention.

 

[mikesw]

The million dollar question for me is why do so many fight tooth and nail to defend something that is not there. More and more I'm starting to think without the trinity they have nothing. There whole belief system is based on a lie.

Your argument just sounds like something the father of lies would say. You never make even the start of a case against the deity of Christ. You just ask that God write scripture to say things in the way you might recognize of the deity of Christ. That is not God's obligation to you.

 

[Runningman]

The million dollar question for me is why do so many fight tooth and nail to defend something that is not there. More and more I'm starting to think without the trinity they have nothing. There whole belief system is based on a lie.

I don't know Peter. I really wishy I could say why. I remember long ago I was going to church where they taught the Trinity. It was a mixed bag. There were those who seemed to have a pretty good grasp on it and others who couldn't comprehend it. Most people avoided the topic completely unless asked about it directly. Though none could explain it or provide any Biblical support for the Trinity, it was what they believed and it was part of their identity. I think that's probably just how it is. I see the Trinity doctrine as part of their tradition and culture. They've just been repeating the same lies long enough that they don't even know why they are doing it still.

 

[mikesw]

I don't know Peter. I really wishy I could say why. I remember long ago I was going to church where they taught the Trinity. It was a mixed bag. There were those who seemed to have a pretty good grasp on it and others who couldn't comprehend it. Most people avoided the topic completely unless asked about it directly. Though none could explain it or provide any Biblical support for the Trinity, it was what they believed and it was part of their identity. I think that's probably just how it is. I see the Trinity doctrine as part of their tradition and culture. They've just been repeating the same lies long enough that they don't even know why they are doing it still.

What? They started repeating your deceitful doctrines? Yikes!
People do not need to know the details of the Trinity. However, it would help if they were aware of it so they could be protected against heresies. Also, the awareness of the Triune God distinguishes the true God from the false religions who try to make it seem that all ideas of gods are the same -- like the Bahai group.

 

[Runningman]

Your denial of Christ is quite strong. Your counter passage is just recognizing the preaching of Jesus' humanity, not a denial of his divinity in the Godhead. I do often check the verses and am surprised. It is surprising you refer to verses that do not support your contention.

Yes the verses I referred to support exactly what my point is. The very same Jesus who said he is a man and needed to be taught by the Father is the same one who said "I am." He wasn't claiming to be God.

 

[Runningman]

What? They started repeating your deceitful doctrines? Yikes!
People do not need to know the details of the Trinity. However, it would help if they were aware of it so they could be protected against heresies. Also, the awareness of the Triune God distinguishes the true God from the false religions who try to make it seem that all ideas of gods are the same -- like the Bahai group.

No idea what you're talking about. I just preach what the Bible does. Did you know that there were other trinity gods in history? I am pretty sure I have put up a source on this a few times. So what makes you think yours isn't just another one of the pagan religions when yours has so much in common with them?

 

[mikesw]

Yes the verses I referred to support exactly what my point is. The very same Jesus who said he is a man and needed to be taught by the Father is the same one who said "I am." He wasn't claiming to be God.

so the Jews were just pretending to get ready to kill Jesus for blasphemy? I'm not sure in what world that makes sense, nor any other aspect of your eisegesis here.

 

[mikesw]

No idea what you're talking about. I just preach what the Bible does. Did you know that there were other trinity gods in history? I am pretty sure I have put up a source on this a few times. So what makes you think yours isn't just another one of the pagan religions when yours has so much in common with them?

If you like to apply distinctly different Pagan doctrines, that just shows you just follow pagan religions. Those pagan ideas are distinctly different -- not a Triune God. Also, Satan could create crude parallels in other religions (making sense only within the pagan pantheon conception) to distract from the true God.
The reason I follow the Trinity is that it best explains scripture, not because you call God as being defined by pagans.

 

[Peterlag]

I don't know Peter. I really wishy I could say why. I remember long ago I was going to church where they taught the Trinity. It was a mixed bag. There were those who seemed to have a pretty good grasp on it and others who couldn't comprehend it. Most people avoided the topic completely unless asked about it directly. Though none could explain it or provide any Biblical support for the Trinity, it was what they believed and it was part of their identity. I think that's probably just how it is. I see the Trinity doctrine as part of their tradition and culture. They've just been repeating the same lies long enough that they don't even know why they are doing it still.

If I'm right and I believe I'm 100 percent right concerning this trinity. And since it's a false concept of Christianity. Then there has to be a big reason why the devil came up with it and continues to fight for it. I think it's a form of idolatry as one worships a God-Man. And if you can't go through Jesus to get to God then God does not get His worship. The spirit of Christ is destroyed because that has been wiped out when they made the spirit God. So what you have left is no Christian base, but self being worshiped as they try to be good and walk like Jesus did.

 

[Peterlag]

I don't see Protestantism is really so much different than Catholicism, but if the Catholics are wrong about it all, it would certainly be beneficial to vet the trinity doctrine carefully.

Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.

 

[Peterlag]

Your argument just sounds like something the father of lies would say. You never make even the start of a case against the deity of Christ. You just ask that God write scripture to say things in the way you might recognize of the deity of Christ. That is not God's obligation to you.

I don't make a case against the deity? I post stuff often. Data like this...

The supposed “dual nature” of Christ is never stated in the Bible and contradicts the Bible and the laws of nature that God set up. Nothing can be 100% of two different things. Jesus cannot be 100% God and 100% man, and that is not a “mystery” but it's a contradiction and a talk of nonsense. A fatal flaw in the “dual nature” theory is that both natures in Jesus would have had to have known about each other. The Jesus God nature would have known about his human nature, and (according to what the Trinitarians teach) his human nature knew he was God, which explains why Trinitarians say Jesus taught that he was God. The book of Hebrews is wrong when it says Jesus was “made like his brothers in every respect” if Jesus knew he was God (Hebrews 2:17). Jesus was not made like other humans in every way if Jesus was 100% God and 100% human at the same time. In fact, he would have been very different from other humans in many respects.

For example, in his God nature he would not have been tempted by anything (James 1:13), and his human part would not have been tempted either since his human nature had access to that same knowledge and assurance. It is written he was tempted in every way like we all are (Hebrews 4:15). Furthermore, God does not have the problems, uncertainty, and anxieties that humans do, and Jesus would not have had those either if he knew he was God. Also, Luke 2:52 says Jesus grew in wisdom, but his human part would have had access to his God part, which would have given him infinite and inherent wisdom. Hebrews says Jesus “learned obedience” by the things that he suffered, but again, the human part of Jesus would have accessed the God part of him and he would not have needed to learn anything.

Kenotic Trinitarians claim that Jesus put off or limited His God nature, but that theology only developed to try to reconcile some of the verses about what Christ experienced on the earth. The idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is not taught or explained in Scripture, and Kenotic Trinitarianism has been rejected by orthodox Trinitarians for exactly that reason. The very simple way to explain the “difficult verses” that Kenotic Trinitarians are trying to explain about Christ’s human experiences is to realize that Jesus was a fully human being, and not both God and man at the same time. Some assert we have to take the Trinity “by faith” but that is not biblical either.

 

[mikesw]

Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.

Did you regret your days as a Roman Catholic and thus ascribe everything you hate about God to Catholicism?

 

[mikesw]

I don't make a case against the deity? I post stuff often. Data like this...

The supposed “dual nature” of Christ is never stated in the Bible and contradicts the Bible and the laws of nature that God set up. Nothing can be 100% of two different things. Jesus cannot be 100% God and 100% man, and that is not a “mystery” but it's a contradiction and a talk of nonsense. A fatal flaw in the “dual nature” theory is that both natures in Jesus would have had to have known about each other. The Jesus God nature would have known about his human nature, and (according to what the Trinitarians teach) his human nature knew he was God, which explains why Trinitarians say Jesus taught that he was God. The book of Hebrews is wrong when it says Jesus was “made like his brothers in every respect” if Jesus knew he was God (Hebrews 2:17). Jesus was not made like other humans in every way if Jesus was 100% God and 100% human at the same time. In fact, he would have been very different from other humans in many respects.

For example, in his God nature he would not have been tempted by anything (James 1:13), and his human part would not have been tempted either since his human nature had access to that same knowledge and assurance. It is written he was tempted in every way like we all are (Hebrews 4:15). Furthermore, God does not have the problems, uncertainty, and anxieties that humans do, and Jesus would not have had those either if he knew he was God. Also, Luke 2:52 says Jesus grew in wisdom, but his human part would have had access to his God part, which would have given him infinite and inherent wisdom. Hebrews says Jesus “learned obedience” by the things that he suffered, but again, the human part of Jesus would have accessed the God part of him and he would not have needed to learn anything.

Kenotic Trinitarians claim that Jesus put off or limited His God nature, but that theology only developed to try to reconcile some of the verses about what Christ experienced on the earth. The idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is not taught or explained in Scripture, and Kenotic Trinitarianism has been rejected by orthodox Trinitarians for exactly that reason. The very simple way to explain the “difficult verses” that Kenotic Trinitarians are trying to explain about Christ’s human experiences is to realize that Jesus was a fully human being, and not both God and man at the same time. Some assert we have to take the Trinity “by faith” but that is not biblical either.

Okay. YOu philosophically dislike what God did. Possibly you could find a weakness of some Trinitarian doctrinal understanding, but if you cannot find an alternative more reasonable theory, then you are just pushing harm on people.

 

[Peterlag]

Okay. YOu philosophically dislike what God did. Possibly you could find a weakness of some Trinitarian doctrinal understanding, but if you cannot find an alternative more reasonable theory, then you are just pushing harm on people.

Alternative? Here's one...

It's important to know who they really are in order to fully love and worship God and Jesus. God, the Father, is the Creator of the universe, the Author of the plan of Salvation, the Father of Jesus Christ, and our One God, and removing Him from that exalted position and having Him share His position as “God” with two other “Persons” diminishes who He really is and what He alone has done. Making Jesus into God actually diminishes who he was, and who he is today, and what he accomplished and is still doing. It demeans Jesus because his courage, mental tenacity, love, great faith, and his true greatness is lost if he is made to be God.

Believing Jesus is God also demonstrates disbelief in his own words when he made statements such as “my father is greater than I” and when he prayed to the Father as “the only true God.” The Father has the unique and singular position as God, and should receive all the worship, credit, respect and awe that He deserves as the One True God. Jesus Christ has the unique and singular position to receive all the worship, credit, respect and awe that he deserves as the man approved of God—the only-begotten Son of the Father.

 

[Peterlag]

Did you regret your days as a Roman Catholic and thus ascribe everything you hate about God to Catholicism?

I was never Catholic. But I know the history of the trinity. A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[mikesw]

I was never Catholic. But I know the history of the trinity. A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ. The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.

well. you know some history of the clarification of what scripture shows.

 

[mikesw]

Alternative? Here's one...

It's important to know who they really are in order to fully love and worship God and Jesus. God, the Father, is the Creator of the universe, the Author of the plan of Salvation, the Father of Jesus Christ, and our One God, and removing Him from that exalted position and having Him share His position as “God” with two other “Persons” diminishes who He really is and what He alone has done. Making Jesus into God actually diminishes who he was, and who he is today, and what he accomplished and is still doing. It demeans Jesus because his courage, mental tenacity, love, great faith, and his true greatness is lost if he is made to be God.

Believing Jesus is God also demonstrates disbelief in his own words when he made statements such as “my father is greater than I” and when he prayed to the Father as “the only true God.” The Father has the unique and singular position as God, and should receive all the worship, credit, respect and awe that He deserves as the One True God. Jesus Christ has the unique and singular position to receive all the worship, credit, respect and awe that he deserves as the man approved of God—the only-begotten Son of the Father.

wow. you are happy to dismiss what God has done by saying it detracts of who God is.
The real truth is that we need to accept what God has done if some people think that sending his Son to humble himself among humanity is below God's dignity. All I can see in your arguments is a philosophical repulsion to God's existence in a Triune sense.

 

[Peterlag]

wow. you are happy to dismiss what God has done by saying it detracts of who God is.
The real truth is that we need to accept what God has done if some people think that sending his Son to humble himself among humanity is below God's dignity. All I can see in your arguments is a philosophical repulsion to God's existence in a Triune sense.

You believe in the trinity so you say wow, I must not believe the Bible and what God choose to do.

I do not believe in the trinity so I say wow, I must believe the Bible and what God choose to not do.