Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Peterlag]

I asked AI for Scripture in the Gospels that state Jesus is the Messiah and below is some of the data that came back...

• John 6:69 - And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
• Luke 2:11 - For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord
• John 20:31 - But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
• Matthew 16:16 - And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God
• Luke 9:20 - He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
• Luke 4:41 - And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God.
• Matthew 16:20 - Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ
• Mark 8:29 - And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
• John 11:27 - She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
• John 1:41 - He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

Then I asked for a list of Scripture in the Gospels that state Jesus is God and below is what came back...

There is no Scripture in the Gospels that explicitly uses the phrase "Jesus is God."

 

[Runningman]

ok. that means you can neglect the various meanings of Mark 10:17-18.

Next you can determine that the meaning of the Father teaching him means that Jesus's cannot be God incarnate. I presume you know the metaphysical restrictions that limit God from working within this model. You can share your source of that metaphysical inability of God.
Essentially, you are making a metaphysical argument against passages that identify Jesus as God.

Plain text is superior to the convoluted, illogical, and unintuitive arguments you are making. You are just be an apologist. I am being a realist.

 

[mikesw]

Plain text is superior to the convoluted, illogical, and unintuitive arguments you are making. You are just be an apologist. I am being a realist.

Uh huh. I would hope few people would be so deeply ingrained in the odd world of unitarian logic. You just assume your arguments have merit despite failing on many levels. I'm surprised you convinced yourself of anything.
Also, if you have such great intuition, maybe you can explain how you know that God cannot possibly do incarnation of his Son without there being the Father teaching the Son. You have not even explained how Jesus was doing what the Father taught him if Jesus is not divine. And maybe the more critical explanation you would need is why Jesus would even consider avoiding action the Father teaches. I think you are asking Jesus to reject the Father in the way unitarians do it.

 

[Runningman]

Uh huh. I would hope few people would be so deeply ingrained in the odd world of unitarian logic. You just assume your arguments have merit despite failing on many levels. I'm surprised you convinced yourself of anything.

It's not Unitarian logic. Jesus isn't the good teacher because God was Jesus' teacher. So what Jesus said is an appropriate statement. God is the good teacher, not Jesus, because Jesus isn't God. That's how the Bible reads.

 

[Runningman]

I asked AI for Scripture in the Gospels that state Jesus is the Messiah and below is some of the data that came back...

• John 6:69 - And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
• Luke 2:11 - For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord
• John 20:31 - But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
• Matthew 16:16 - And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God
• Luke 9:20 - He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
• Luke 4:41 - And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God.
• Matthew 16:20 - Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ
• Mark 8:29 - And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
• John 11:27 - She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
• John 1:41 - He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

Then I asked for a list of Scripture in the Gospels that state Jesus is God and below is what came back...

There is no Scripture in the Gospels that explicitly uses the phrase "Jesus is God."

It's sad that AI has a better spiritual compass than trinitarians.

 

[mikesw]

It's not Unitarian logic. Jesus isn't the good teacher because God was Jesus' teacher. So what Jesus said is an appropriate statement. God is the good teacher, not Jesus, because Jesus isn't God. That's how the Bible reads.

That is your idea. And you are right. There is no true unitarian logic and thus their arguments are not useful or convincing.

 

[mikesw]

I asked AI for Scripture in the Gospels that state Jesus is the Messiah and below is some of the data that came back...

• John 6:69 - And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
• Luke 2:11 - For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord
• John 20:31 - But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
• Matthew 16:16 - And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God
• Luke 9:20 - He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
• Luke 4:41 - And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God.
• Matthew 16:20 - Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ
• Mark 8:29 - And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
• John 11:27 - She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
• John 1:41 - He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

Then I asked for a list of Scripture in the Gospels that state Jesus is God and below is what came back...

There is no Scripture in the Gospels that explicitly uses the phrase "Jesus is God."

you ask a stupid question and you get the answer you expect.

 

[Runningman]

That is your idea. And you are right. There is no true unitarian logic and thus their arguments are not useful or convincing.

I mean, there isn't a Unitarian logic because it's the same as common sense. It doesn't require any indoctrination. It only leverages what people already naturally have, which is why Jesus and Unitarianism are so successful. People can read the Bible and see the Father is the only true God and that Jesus is not. They don't need a masters class from seminary to understand it nor complicated theology classes to defend it. The words of the Bible stand on their own two feet regardless of how many darts you throw at them. You can't change what the Bible says or undo it.

 

[mikesw]

I mean, there isn't a Unitarian logic because it's the same as common sense. It doesn't require any indoctrination. It only leverages what people already naturally have, which is why Unitarianism is so successful. People can read the Bible and see the Father is the only true God and that Jesus is not. They don't need a masters class from seminary to understand it nor complicated theology classes to defend it. The words of the Bible stand on their own two feet regardless of how many darts you throw at them. You can't change what the Bible says or undo it.

unitarianism is successful? You reject the passages point out Jesus as God and disregard the passages about his pre-existence and that is how your logic works. Basically, if it does not fit your paradigm, you gloss over it. It is easy to make doctrine you like if you reject the rest of scripture.
If you had reasonable arguments, they would have convinced people here to change to your doctrine. You simply have not addressed the difficult passages.

 

[Runningman]

unitarianism is successful? You reject the passages point out Jesus as God and disregard the passages about his pre-existence and that is how your logic works. Basically, if it does not fit your paradigm, you gloss over it. It is easy to make doctrine you like if you reject the rest of scripture.

Which passage would that be? Please explain why you think Jesus is God. Anything about Jesus sharing the same divine characteristics as God? Anything about Jesus being the creator? Anything about Jesus pre-existing as God? Any claims about Jesus being God? I think you guys have already been through them all and every argument was contradicted by Scripture.

 

[mikesw]

Which passage would that be? Please explain why you think Jesus is God. Anything about Jesus sharing the same divine characteristics as God? Anything about Jesus being the creator? Anything about Jesus pre-existing as God? Any claims about Jesus being God? I think you guys have already been through them all and every argument was contradicted by Scripture.

haha. No. The passages were rejected by you via your unitarian logic rather than reasoning. Your arguments have failed but you glory in those failures. I know the functioning of that. A person shares an argument or verse or even a longer discussion while thinking they have made something convincing. I have done that. You are doing it now. Live with it or figure out what you are doing wrong.

 

[Runningman]

haha. No. The passages were rejected by you via your unitarian logic rather than reasoning. Your arguments have failed but you glory in those failures. I know the functioning of that. A person shares an argument or verse or even a longer discussion while thinking they have made something convincing. I have done that. You are doing it now. Live with it or figure out what you are doing wrong.

You say no to make any sort of Biblical argument but you keep the conversation down mire by just talking smack and complaining all day. If you think I am wrong, do something about it if you can. Put me in my place Mike. Show me where the Bible refutes the Father being the only true God. Show me where Jesus is acting in the capacity of God. Show me there is a trinity God. Show me the Scripture. There is a reason why they call us Biblical Unitarians. We rely on Sola Scriptura.

 

[Peterlag]

 

[Runningman]

View attachment 2297

I once met a trinitarian who thought that saying "I am" in any sentence, in any context, was a claim to being God. I even showed him some places in the Bible where someone said "I am." I forgot what story he told to worked around it or dismiss it though. It's just amazing how deeply entrenched the conditioning is in some of them.

 

[Peterlag]

I once met a trinitarian who thought that saying "I am" in any sentence, in any context, was a claim to being God. I even showed him some places in the Bible where someone said "I am." I forgot what story he told to worked around it or dismiss it though. It's just amazing how deeply entrenched the conditioning is in some of them.

"I am" was a common phrase and it isn't the name of anyone.

 

[Runningman]

"I am" was a common phrase and it isn't the name of anyone.

I am in agreement with you.

 

[Runningman]

I had some fun with what AI could come up with playing satirically with the Trinity diagram. Check these out.

 

[Peterlag]

The Trinity folks often argue that since Revelation, Paul, and other New Tesrament texts depict Jesus as Judge using Old Testament language originally applied to Yahweh and then they say this proves Jesus is Yahweh himself and therefore God Almighty.

But this is a category error: in Scripture, God often delegates His own roles, titles, and judgments to His chosen agent. The Son carries out judgment because the Father appointed him (John 5:22, 27) — not because he is the same being as the Father.

cc: @FreeInChrist
@Capbook
@101G

 

[Capbook]

The Trinity folks often argue that since Revelation, Paul, and other New Tesrament texts depict Jesus as Judge using Old Testament language originally applied to Yahweh and then they say this proves Jesus is Yahweh himself and therefore God Almighty.

For me, that's a strawman argument, text below speaks of Jesus as an Advocate. And Bible lexicon defined "Advocate," in Greek "παράκλητος paraklētos" as one who pleads another’s cause before a judge, an intercessor, legal assistant, and etc.
That proves your point is wrong.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

παράκλητος paraklētos
Thayer Definition:
1) summoned, called to one’s side, especially called to one’s aid
1a) one who pleads another’s cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate
1b) one who pleads another’s cause with one, an intercessor

 

[101G]

The Trinity folks often argue that since Revelation, Paul, and other New Tesrament texts depict Jesus as Judge using Old Testament language originally applied to Yahweh and then they say this proves Jesus is Yahweh himself and therefore God Almighty.

But this is a category error: in Scripture, God often delegates His own roles, titles, and judgments to His chosen agent. The Son carries out judgment because the Father appointed him (John 5:22, 27) — not because he is the same being as the Father.

cc: @FreeInChrist
@Capbook
@101G

GINOLJC, to all.
you said, " God often delegates His own roles, titles, and judgments to His chosen agent. The Son carries out judgment because the Father appointed him (John 5:22, 27) — not because he is the same being as the Father."

"God delegates His own roles, titles" ok, glad you said that. listen closely, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you."

God said that he will come and save us..... so, Pete, who came and saved us? your answer please.

101G.