The Water Baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13

[TomL]

TomL said:
And then of course we have your confession that the baptism with water and with the holy ghost is inseparable

yet another inconsistency

There was no water baptism in Acts 2:1-4

That is not inconsistent with anything. Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21 and other passages all state that baptism (in water) in addition to the action of the Spirit are necessary to receive salvation.

That nothing more than bald denial

There was no inseparable union between water baptism and the baptism en the Spirit here


Acts 2:1–4 (LEB) — 1 And when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in the same place. 2 And suddenly a sound like a violent rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues like fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages as the Spirit gave them ability to speak out.

you are in error

BTW they were filled with the Spirit - that is indwelling and another hole in your position

end pt6

 

[TomL]

You have improperly defined "baptism 'en' the Spirit". Baptism "en" the Spirit does not include receiving miraculous empowerment of the Spirit (although that can be one of the gifts which He gives to those who have been baptized "en" the Spirit). Baptism "en" the Spirit is the same as salvation, the indwelling of the Spirit, being reborn of the Spirit, being "in Christ". Baptism "en" the Spirit and the miraculous gifts of the Spirit are not mutually inclusive.

You have failed to show any such thing.

looking at your affirmation however

Acts 11:15–17 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?”

You just confessed the gentiles were saved before water baptism

Your position is in tatters

end pt7

 

[TomL]

Their hearts were cleansed when they demonstrated their faith in obedience to the Gospel. They were not cleansed by the Spirit falling on them in miraculous power.

The text

Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

contains not a word about water baptism

The Spirit testified they were believers - had faith by giving them the spirit

And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

not by water baptism which does not appear in the text

Your position is contrary to scripture here

end pt8

 

[TomL]

Excursion on the absurd

That is your interpretation colored by your preconception. It is not TRUTH! Speaking in tongues is NOT evidence of salvation/indwelling of the Spirit. Balaam's donkey is evidence that the gift of tongues can be given to the unsaved (donkeys having no soul to save in the first place).

When you can show it is stated the donkey received or was given the spirit, your citation might have some value. As such is never stated anywhere in scripture, your citing of the donkey's experience is absurd.

BTW it is never stated the donkey had the gift of tongues either

 

[Doug Brents]

Um

Do you really want to claim

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

the gift of the holy spirit does not include the indwelling

You don't read very clearly, or you are only reading what you want to hear.
As I said earlier, those you have been baptized into Christ receive the indwelling automatically, so that is naturally included in this verse. But this passage is also indicating that miraculous empowerment was also available to those Jews to whom Peter was speaking.

The same gift was seen here

Acts 10:45–46 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said,

This is speaking only of the miraculous empowerment (tongues and praise) which could be seen, not the indwelling which cannot be seen.

Note the Spirit was received

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

speaking of the indwelling

Yes, the Spirit was received. But what part of the Spirit, what manifestation of His working, was received in each of the cases above? In some, it was tongues and praise (miraculous empowerment); in some it was the indwelling; in some it was both. You have to consider the context of each event, and consider the truths found in 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19, Acts 8:36, Acts 22:16 and others that show that salvation is received in water baptism, and never without water baptism.

 

[TomL]

Um

Do you really want to claim

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

the gift of the holy spirit does not include the indwelling

Doug brent

You don't read very clearly, or you are only reading what you want to hear.
As I said earlier, those you have been baptized into Christ receive the indwelling automatically, so that is naturally included in this verse. But this passage is also indicating that miraculous empowerment was also available to those Jews to whom Peter was speaking.

There should've been a question mark there

For your position is the gift of the Holy does speak of the indwelling

And Mine as well

if you read all my post you will see that

and I use the fact that the gift of the spirit references the indwelling of the spirit when I stated

Acts 10:44–47 (LEB) — 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who were listening to the message. 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”

So the gentiles received the gift of the spirit as had the believers from the circumcision.

the gift of the spirit being the reception of the spirit.

The giving of the spirit as God had given to the Jews

Acts 15:8 (LEB) — 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us.

that truly smacks of denial that anyone would claim being given the gift of the spirit, receiving the spirit, being given the spirit refers only to an empowerment by the Spirit


There is no scriptural support for such a claim

BTW seeing as you have confirmed the gift of the spirit includes the indwelling

the gentiles were indwelt

Acts 10:45 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,

Again it is absurd you claim this is mere empowerment

when scripture claims they were given the gift of the spirit, were given the spirit, had received the spirit


BTW it was you who did not read clearly as this is what I stated

TomL said:
and your position is that gift included the indwelling

and you stated no that is not my position

 

[dwight92070]

Nope. The two are not connected. Cornelius did not need to be saved in order for the Holy Spirit to empower them. He empowered a donkey (Num 22:22-35), He can empower rocks (Matt 3:9-10), He can empower

Your interpretation is false. Peter said that they received the Holy Spirit Just like he and the rest of the 120 did, so he concluded that they not only had been instantly saved, but baptized in the Holy Spirit. Because of that, he said they were candidates to be baptized. You can't rightfully compare the baptism of the Holy Spirit with what the Spirit did in the Old Testament. The Old Testament occurrences were NOT the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which was something totally new that only Jesus Himself did.

This conclusion does not fit with all Scripture. John 3:5 says that to enter the Kingdom of God they (and everyone else as well) need to be born again of both water and the Spirit. If they had only received the Spirit, then they were not born again. 1 Pet 3:21 says that it is through water baptism that we receive salvation. In order for this to be fulfilled, the Holy Spirit falling on Cornelius would not save him. You are trying to make Scripture fit your preconceptions, but it is your preconceptions that must change to fit what Scripture says.

Where is that stated in Scripture? That is just your personal conclusion, that is not supported by Scripture at all.

Again, in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit only falls on someone who has already been saved - or , as in this case, at the same time as their salvation. You can't expect that the activity of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament will be the same as in the Old Testament. In the New Testament the baptism of the Holy Spirit never occurs with an unbeliever - only on those who have already put their faith in Jesus. There was no such thing as the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, even though you try to equate the two.
Where is that stated in Scripture?

 

[TomL]

Your interpretation is false. Peter said that they received the Holy Spirit Just like he and the rest of the 120 did, so he concluded that they not only had been instantly saved, but baptized in the Holy Spirit. Because of that, he said they were candidates to be baptized. You can't rightfully compare the baptism of the Holy Spirit with what the Spirit did in the Old Testament. The Old Testament occurrences were NOT the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which was something totally new that only Jesus Himself did.

Again, in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit only falls on someone who has already been saved - or , as in this case, at the same time as their salvation. You can't expect that the activity of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament will be the same as in the Old Testament. In the New Testament the baptism of the Holy Spirit never occurs with an unbeliever - only on those who have already put their faith in Jesus. There was no such thing as the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, even though you try to equate the two.
Where is that stated in Scripture?

Correct. It is so obvious they had received the spirit himself and been indwelt

 

[TomL]

Doug brent




There should've been a question mark there

For your position is the gift of the Holy does speak of the indwelling

And Mine as well

if you read all my post you will see that

and I use the fact that the gift of the spirit references the indwelling of the spirit when I stated

Acts 10:44–47 (LEB) — 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who were listening to the message. 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”

So the gentiles received the gift of the spirit as had the believers from the circumcision.

the gift of the spirit being the reception of the spirit.

The giving of the spirit as God had given to the Jews

Acts 15:8 (LEB) — 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us.

that truly smacks of denial that anyone would claim being given the gift of the spirit, receiving the spirit, being given the spirit refers only to an empowerment by the Spirit


There is no scriptural support for such a claim

BTW seeing as you have confirmed the gift of the spirit includes the indwelling

the gentiles were indwelt

Acts 10:45 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,

Again it is absurd you claim this is mere empowerment

when scripture claims they were given the gift of the spirit, were given the spirit, had received the spirit


BTW it was you who did not read clearly as this is what I stated

TomL said:
and your position is that gift included the indwelling

and you stated no that is not my position

Addendum

this

TomL said:
and your position is that gift included the indwelling

was in reference to Acts 2:38 where the promise was to receive the gift of the spirit

 

[mailmandan]

Excursion on the absurd

When you can show it is stated the donkey received or was given the spirit, your citation might have some value. As such is never stated anywhere in scripture, your citing of the donkey's experience is absurd.

BTW it is never stated the donkey had the gift of tongues either

One of the most ludicrous arguments that I have ever heard by folks who attend the CoC (in a desperate effort to accommodate their biased church doctrine at all costs) and "get around" the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 had already believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift which is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism is that Balaam's donkey also spoke in tongues, but that does not prove the donkey was saved either.

In the first place, the Lord simply opened the mouth of the donkey to speak in order to rebuke Balaam. The donkey did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit or the spiritual gift of tongues, which is for the body of Christ ONLY. This same ludicrous argument concludes that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 merely received the gift of tongues, but not the gift of the Holy Spirit. Just unbelievable!

 

[TomL]

One of the most ludicrous arguments that I have ever heard by folks who attend the CoC (in a desperate effort to accommodate their biased church doctrine at all costs) and "get around" the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 had already believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift which is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism is that Balaam's donkey also spoke in tongues, but that does not prove the donkey was saved either.

In the first place, the Lord simply opened the mouth of the donkey to speak in order to rebuke Balaam. The donkey did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit or the spiritual gift of tongues, which is for the body of Christ ONLY. This same ludicrous argument concludes that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 merely received the gift of tongues, but not the gift of the Holy Spirit. Just unbelievable!

It truly is absurd.

The donkey had not received the spirit, was not given the Spirit.

And the claim

that the Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 merely received the gift of tongues, but not the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Is contrary to scripture

Acts 10:45 (NASB95) — 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

 

[JLB]

And what did they receive when the Spirit fell ON (not into) them? They received tongues and praise; miraculous empowerment, not indwelling.

Totally false.

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 10-48

The Holy Spirit was “pour out” upon the believers on the day of Pentecost in which the believers were filled with the Holy Spirit.

And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4

The evidence someone has received and are filled with the Holy Spirit is they speak in tongues. A spiritual language.

 

[Doug Brents]

TomL said:
And then of course we have your confession that the baptism with water and with the holy ghost is inseparable

yet another inconsistency

There was no water baptism in Acts 2:1-4

Correct, there is no water there, but I never said that baptism with the Holy Ghost requires water. I said baptism "en" the Holy Ghost (the indwelling of the Spirit) and baptism in water are inseparable.

That nothing more than bald denial

There was no inseparable union between water baptism and the baptism en the Spirit here

Acts 2:1–4 (LEB) — 1 And when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in the same place. 2 And suddenly a sound like a violent rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues like fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages as the Spirit gave them ability to speak out.

you are in error

Nope, no error here on my part. The people here received miraculous empowerment of the Spirit in these verses. They already had the indwelling of the Spirit (notice the distinction between the two).

BTW they were filled with the Spirit - that is indwelling and another hole in your position

There are dozens of people mentioned in the OT who were "filled with the Spirit", but not a single one of them was indwelt by the Spirit (the Spirit did not indwell anyone until after Jesus was glorified (John 7:39), so to claim that being "filled with the Spirit" denotes the indwelling is simply a cleverly conceived fiction on your part with no truth in it.

You have failed to show any such thing.

looking at your affirmation however

Acts 11:15–17 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?”

You just confessed the gentiles were saved before water baptism

The Gentiles were NOT saved before water baptism. They received miraculous empowerment (tongues and praise (Acts 10:46 - compare with Acts 2:4)) and nothing more. They were not reborn of water and the Spirit (John 3:5) until they were baptized in water in Acts 10:48.

Your position is in tatters

In your erroneous opinion, maybe. But in truth, my position is completely vindicated.

The text

Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

contains not a word about water baptism

Notice, if you will, that there is a separation between the giving of the Holy Spirit (miraculous empowerment) in verse 8 and the cleansing of their hearts by faith (which includes the indwelling) in verse 9.

The Spirit testified they were believers - had faith by giving them the spirit

And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

not by water baptism which does not appear in the text

Your position is contrary to scripture here

These Gentiles were already God fearing men (Acts 10:2), and would have been saved under the OT if the Covenants had not changed. But they did change, and so they needed to receive the Gospel of the New Covenant in Christ in order to be saved under the NT. Their hearts had already been cleansed by faith in God under the Old Covenant.

Also, their hearts were cleansed by faith; faith, not miraculous empowerment by the Spirit. Faith is not real unless it includes action on the part of the person in obedience to God, and that includes all the actions that He says lead to/result in receiving salvation.

When you can show it is stated the donkey received or was given the spirit, your citation might have some value. As such is never stated anywhere in scripture, your citing of the donkey's experience is absurd.

Num 22:28 says that "the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey". God (the Spirit) is working through the donkey to give it the power of speech. This wasn't Satan, it wasn't some other spirit, it was the Spirit of God. And He gave the donkey the ability to speak, reason, and to perceive the angelic spirit that blocked Balaam's path.

BTW it is never stated the donkey had the gift of tongues either

What other gift would you call it when the Holy Spirit causes an animal (that normally cannot speak) to speak in a voice and language that the rider could understand?

 

[Doug Brents]

Your interpretation is false. Peter said that they received the Holy Spirit Just like he and the rest of the 120 did, so he concluded that they not only had been instantly saved, but baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Where is that conclusion in Scripture? It is not in Scripture, but only in your own mind. What part of the Spirit did the 120 on Pentecost receive? They already had the indwelling of the Spirit from back in John 20:22. They did not receive more indwelling, or a reindwelling. All they received on Pentecost ("at the beginning" (Acts 11:15)) was miraculous empowerment of the Spirit. The 120 were already saved, and only needed empowerment. That is what Peter says the Gentiles received. And this empowerment does not indicate or demonstrate their salvation in any way.

Because of that, he said they were candidates to be baptized. You can't rightfully compare the baptism of the Holy Spirit with what the Spirit did in the Old Testament. The Old Testament occurrences were NOT the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which was something totally new that only Jesus Himself did.

The indwelling of the Spirit is indeed something new and different from what occurred in the OT. But the miraculous empowerment seen in Acts 2:3-4 and 10:46 should not be confused with the indwelling of the Spirit seen in John 20:22 and that is received when one is reborn in Christ (John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, etc.).

Again, in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit only falls on someone who has already been saved - or , as in this case, at the same time as their salvation. You can't expect that the activity of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament will be the same as in the Old Testament.

Why would you expect them to be different? What is the OT given to us for if not so that we would be able to see how God interacted with man consistently all through time. God does not change, which means that the way the Holy Spirit empowers man does not change. The only difference in the OT and the NT in that respect is that the Holy Spirit now lives within the hearts of those who are in Christ, and does not just empower and be with us.

In the New Testament the baptism of the Holy Spirit never occurs with an unbeliever - only on those who have already put their faith in Jesus.

Certainly the indwelling of the Spirit is only for those who have received salvation already. But there is no place in all Scripture where it says that the Holy Spirit cannot empower those who have not been saved. He can give power where He chooses, and miraculous empowerment is not connected to salvation in any way.

There was no such thing as the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, even though you try to equate the two.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not synonymous with salvation. I have never said that there was "baptism of the Holy Spirit" in the OT. But there is clearly empowerment of the Holy Spirit all through the OT, and it was not related to salvation either in the OT or the NT.

 

[Doug Brents]

Totally false.

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 10-48

The Holy Spirit was “pour out” upon the believers on the day of Pentecost in which the believers were filled with the Holy Spirit.

And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4

Joseph was filled with the Spirit of God (Genesis 41:38).
The craftsmen who built the tabernacle were filled with the Spirit of God (Exodus 31:3).
Joshua was filled with the Spirit of God (Numbers 27:18).
The judge Othniel was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 3:10).
The judge Gideon was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 6:34).
The judge Jephthah was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 11:29).
The judge Samson was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 13:5, 14:6, 14:19, 15:14).
Saul was filled with the Spirit of God (1 Samuel 10:9-10).
David was filled with the Spirit of God (1 Samuel 16:13)

Being filled with the Spirit is not evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit.

The evidence someone has received and are filled with the Holy Spirit is they speak in tongues. A spiritual language.

None of the people listed above spoke in tongues but they were all filled with the Spirit, so speaking in tongues is not the only evidence that someone has received and is filled with the Holy Spirit.

Where do you get the idea that speaking in tongues means speaking in a "spiritual language"? When the 120 on Pentecost spoke in tongues all the people around them heard them speaking in their own native language (not a spiritual language).

 

[TomL]

Correct, there is no water there, but I never said that baptism with the Holy Ghost requires water. I said baptism "en" the Holy Ghost (the indwelling of the Spirit) and baptism in water are inseparable.

Well Water baptism and the baptism en the Holy ghost were clearly separated in Acts 2:1-4

So they can occur at separate times.

And that is what we see at Acts 10 with the gentiles, Acts 8 with the samaritans, and Acts 19 with some disciples

Nope, no error here on my part. The people here received miraculous empowerment of the Spirit in these verses. They already had the indwelling of the Spirit (notice the distinction between the two).

You are trying to claim Acts 2:1-4 was not an example of the baptism en the holy Ghost?

Thought Jesus himself had stated

Acts 1:5 (NASB95) — 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

at the time of his resurrection on the day of pentecost, Witnessed to by speaking in tongues?

Though Peter knew the Gentiles had been baptised en the spirit

Acts 11:15–16 (NASB95) — 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

based upon the fact they had spoken in tongues

Acts 10:45–46 (NASB95) — 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,

No you are in error

There are dozens of people mentioned in the OT who were "filled with the Spirit", but not a single one of them was indwelt by the Spirit (the Spirit did not indwell anyone until after Jesus was glorified (John 7:39), so to claim that being "filled with the Spirit" denotes the indwelling is simply a cleverly conceived fiction on your part with no truth in it.

Your problem is I argued not on the filling of the Spirit but upon the fact of receiving the spirit, being given the Spirit, and receiving the gift of the Spirit

Acts 10:44–47 (NASB95) — 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

Acts 11:15–17 (NASB95) — 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 “Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

Acts 15:8 (NASB95) — 8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

you do not address this

end pt1

 

[TomL]

The Gentiles were NOT saved before water baptism. They received miraculous empowerment (tongues and praise (Acts 10:46 - compare with Acts 2:4)) and nothing more. They were not reborn of water and the Spirit (John 3:5) until they were baptized in water in Acts 10:48.

According to scripture, they received the Spirit, Were given the spirit, received the gift of the Spirit, were baptized en the Spirit

Your substitution of that for just miraculous empowerment is a denial of text and error

In your erroneous opinion, maybe. But in truth, my position is completely vindicated.

Hard to see how when you have ignored so many obvious facts

The text

Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

contains not a word about water baptism

Notice, if you will, that there is a separation between the giving of the Holy Spirit (miraculous empowerment) in verse 8 and the cleansing of their hearts by faith (which includes the indwelling) in verse 9.

sorry, no there is no separation.

The two verses are joined by the conjuction and

8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

BTW nowhere in scripture do we see that giving the Spirit means giving miraculous empowerment

This is something you invented apart from scripture

Further tongues is a gift for the body (of Christ-saved christians)

1 Corinthians 12:1–12 (NASB95) — 1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware. 2 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. 4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. 12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.

end pt2

 

[TomL]

TomL had said:

The Spirit testified they were believers - had faith by giving them the spirit

And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

not by water baptism which does not appear in the text

Your position is contrary to scripture here

These Gentiles were already God fearing men (Acts 10:2), and would have been saved under the OT if the Covenants had not changed. But they did change, and so they needed to receive the Gospel of the New Covenant in Christ in order to be saved under the NT. Their hearts had already been cleansed by faith in God under the Old Covenant.

No not according to the text

Acts 15:7–11 (NASB95) — 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 “Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

God testified to their faith

Their faith was testified to by God giving of the Spirit

As scripture informs

John 7:38–39 (NASB95) — 38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

A promise of indwelling

Given these facts Peter concludes the Gentiles were saved in verse 11 completely demolishing your theology.

Num 22:28 says that "the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey". God (the Spirit) is working through the donkey to give it the power of speech. This wasn't Satan, it wasn't some other spirit, it was the Spirit of God. And He gave the donkey the ability to speak, reason, and to perceive the angelic spirit that blocked Balaam's path.

What other gift would you call it when the Holy Spirit causes an animal (that normally cannot speak) to speak in a voice and language that the rider could understand?

Empowerment with which you mistakening attribute to the Gentiles being given the Spirit, receiving the Spirit, being given the gift of the holy spirit , receiving the baptism en the holy Ghost

Not a single one of these other things was or can be said to apply to the donkey

so that argument remains absurd and just ignores the obvious differences

 

[Doug Brents]

Well Water baptism and the baptism en the Holy ghost were clearly separated in Acts 2:1-4

So they can occur at separate times.

The baptism in Acts 2:1-4 is not baptism "en" the Holy Spirit. It is miraculous empowerment. Baptism "en" the Holy Spirit is the indwelling, and they already had that.

And that is what we see at Acts 10 with the gentiles, Acts 8 with the samaritans, and Acts 19 with some disciples

These three cases show the distinction between the indwelling and miraculous empowerment of the Spirit. They are not the same as you seem to want to insist that they are.

You are trying to claim Acts 2:1-4 was not an example of the baptism en the holy Ghost?

Thought Jesus himself had stated

Acts 1:5 (NASB95) — 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

at the time of his resurrection on the day of pentecost, Witnessed to by speaking in tongues?

Though Peter knew the Gentiles had been baptised en the spirit

Acts 11:15–16 (NASB95) — 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

based upon the fact they had spoken in tongues

Acts 10:45–46 (NASB95) — 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,

No you are in error

I am not saying that the Holy Spirit did not come upon them. I am not saying that the Holy Spirit did not empower them with miraculous gifts. But these things are NOT evidence of their salvation.

Your problem is I argued not on the filling of the Spirit but upon the fact of receiving the spirit, being given the Spirit, and receiving the gift of the Spirit

Acts 10:44–47 (NASB95) — 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

Acts 11:15–17 (NASB95) — 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 “Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

Acts 15:8 (NASB95) — 8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

you do not address this

I did address this. The Holy Spirit falling on the Apostles on Pentecost is not evidence of their salvation (they already had salvation and the indwelling from John 20:22), so it is not evidence of the salvation of the Gentiles in Acts 10.

According to scripture, they received the Spirit, Were given the spirit, received the gift of the Spirit, were baptized en the Spirit

Your substitution of that for just miraculous empowerment is a denial of text and error

It is your assumption that the Spirit falling on them in Acts 10 is evidence of their salvation that is in error.

Hard to see how when you have ignored so many obvious facts

The text

Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

contains not a word about water baptism

It contains emphatic reference to their hearts being purified by FAITH. There is no faith in the Spirit falling on them in power. Faith is only present in their actions subsequent to the falling of the Spirit.

sorry, no there is no separation.

The two verses are joined by the conjuction and

8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

That conjunction does not mean they are the same thing, or happened in the same event. He (God) testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit in the same way that the Spirit was given to the Apostles (at the beginning (Acts 11:15)). And He showed that they were all the same (no distinction) by cleansing their hearts THROUGH FAITH (not through the falling of the Spirit in power, but through faith).

BTW nowhere in scripture do we see that giving the Spirit means giving miraculous empowerment
This is something you invented apart from scripture

This is everywhere in the OT.
The Spirit empowered the workers on the Tabernacle with knowledge, wisdom, and skill.
The Spirit empowered Daniel with skill and wisdom.
The Spirit empowered Solomon with wisdom greater than anyone else in human history.
And the list goes on and on.

Further tongues is a gift for the body (of Christ-saved christians)

1 Corinthians 12:1–12 (NASB95) — 1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware. 2 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. 4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. 12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.

That is your interpretation of that passage, but it is not truth. Yes, there was a gift of tongues that came from the Spirit for those who were in Christ in the first century. But that gift is not present in the world today, so it cannot be the litmus test for Spiritual empowerment. Nor was it exclusive to those in the New Covenant, nor even to humans.

No not according to the text

Acts 15:7–11 (NASB95) — 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 “Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

God testified to their faith

Their faith was testified to by God giving of the Spirit

As I said before: the Gentiles were already righteous, devout, and God fearing before Peter was sent to them. They were saved under the Old Covenant, but the Covenants had changed and they needed to learn about Jesus in order to be saved under the New Covenant. The Holy Spirit testified to them to show the Jews that they (Gentiles) could enter into the Church as equals with the Jews. His falling on them was not evidence of their salvation.

As scripture informs

John 7:38–39 (NASB95) — 38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

A promise of indwelling

Given these facts Peter concludes the Gentiles were saved in verse 11 completely demolishing your theology.

The Gentiles were saved when they were born again through both the Spirit AND water (John 3:5). If they were saved by just the Spirit falling on them, then John 3:5 and 1 Pet 3:21 become lies (and there are no lies in Scripture).

Empowerment with which you mistakening attribute to the Gentiles being given the Spirit, receiving the Spirit, being given the gift of the holy spirit , receiving the baptism en the holy Ghost

Not a single one of these other things was or can be said to apply to the donkey

so that argument remains absurd and just ignores the obvious differences

Do donkeys speak on their own? Has any other donkey ever spoken? What does Num 22:28 mean when it says that "the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey"? It means that God (the Holy Spirit) empowered the donkey with a supernatural power of speech in a language that Balaam understood. It also means that, if all animals are not naturally empowered to do so (which no Scripture mentions or implies), He also empowered the donkey to see spiritual beings (the Angel).

 

[JLB]

Joseph was filled with the Spirit of God (Genesis 41:38).
The craftsmen who built the tabernacle were filled with the Spirit of God (Exodus 31:3).
Joshua was filled with the Spirit of God (Numbers 27:18).
The judge Othniel was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 3:10).
The judge Gideon was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 6:34).
The judge Jephthah was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 11:29).
The judge Samson was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 13:5, 14:6, 14:19, 15:14).
Saul was filled with the Spirit of God (1 Samuel 10:9-10).
David was filled with the Spirit of God (1 Samuel 16:13)

Being filled with the Spirit is not evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit.

Of course it is.

Being filled with the Spirit means “filled” with the Spirit; your spirit is filled with the Spirit.

Endued with power within your spirit, to do the works that Jesus did.


Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” Luke 24:49