The Water Baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13

[dwight92070]

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews of Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one spirit."

If this was referring to water baptism, then it would be true that water baptism, being the point at which we enter into the body of Christ, would be necessary for salvation - in fact it would be the very point of salvation.

However, how many of us know beyond all doubt that we were born again - saved BEFORE we were baptized in water? For me, water baptism was about 2 weeks later. I was saved by reading the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, specifically when I came to Matthew 5:6. I knew Jesus was telling me that my spiritual hunger and thirst for meaning in life, which started at least one or two months before reading this - was being satisfied right then. I knew at that moment that I was saved - born again - both terms that I had heard growing up in a Baptist church, but never knew whether I had experienced that or not, until that day in September 1970 in my Air Force barracks at Kelly Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas.

So I was saved or born again by reading the words of Jesus and believing them and knowing that whatever Jesus would say after Matthew 5:6 (because I had NEVER read through the New Testament before, and I was 21 years old, but now I had started to read the entire New Testament) I knew that WHATEVER HE SAID would be true and that I was going to believe it.

This totally affirms Peter's words in 1 Peter 1:23:
"for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God."

Did you catch that? I was born again through the words of Jesus - NOT BY WATER BAPTISM, which happened two weeks later. We do not enter into the body of Christ through water baptism. In fact, we must be in the body of Christ before we even consider being baptized in water.

Therefore, the verse in 1 Peter affirms that 1 Corinthians 12:13 is NOT speaking of water baptism, but of being saved, being born again. Peter plainly says that we are born again by (our faith in) the word of God, (spoken by Jesus - nothing else). Galatians 3:27 uses the same terminology for the new birth, as does Romans 6:3.

Apparently, Doug Brents, you didn't read my whole post, or you ignored the rest of it.

 

[Doug Brents]

water baptism no more saved in the NT that circumcision did in old

50% correct, that's a failing grade just about anywhere. Circumcision was not about salvation in the OT (although if you did not have it you could not be part of the community of God, hmmm).

 

[Doug Brents]

Notice I said "IF this was referring to water baptism".

I did note that, and that "if" is 100% correct: it IS referring to water baptism.

And of course I went on to demonstrate that I was saved/born again - and thereby put into the body of Christ - about 2 weeks BEFORE I was baptized.

You think you were, but God is the one who sets that timing, not you. And He told us when it is that we enter into His Kingdom, again, not you.

 

[dwight92070]

I did note that, and that "if" is 100% correct: it IS referring to water baptism.

You think you were, but God is the one who sets that timing, not you. And He told us when it is that we enter into His Kingdom, again, not you.

I know when I was saved and God knows - you don't. My salvation is based on the words of Jesus Himself and my faith in Him (NOT in my water baptism, in which you put YOUR faith), so even though you go around trying to destroy my faith in His salvation, and others as well, everyone knows who the author of stealing, killing, and destroying is - that would be Satan. So you are doing the works of your father. By God's grace, your lies can't budge my faith in Jesus and His word.

 

[Doug Brents]

I know when I was saved and God knows - you don't. My salvation is based on the words of Jesus Himself and my faith in Him (NOT in my water baptism, in which you put YOUR faith), so even though you go around trying to destroy my faith in His salvation, and others as well, everyone knows who the author of stealing, killing, and destroying is - that would be Satan. So you are doing the works of your father. By God's grace, your lies can't budge my faith in Jesus and His word.

You're right, I don't know much about you at all. But I do know the Word of God, and I know what He says about what it takes to be saved and when He will save someone. He does not save based on knowing His Word; He does not save based on a feeling you have in your mind, heart, spirit, or intellect; and He does not save just because you come to accept the truth of His Gospel. He saves because you have obeyed the commands He says lead to and result in receiving His gift of salvation. Just as all the people in the OT didn't receive their blessings until they did what He said to do to get them, we don't receive the blessing of salvation until we do what He says we have to do to get it. You can have all the feelings in the world, but until you did what He said you didn't receive anything.

These truths are not meant to steal, kill, or destroy your faith. They are meant to bring you to a true and greater faith. I pray that you accept the truth before it is too late.

 

[dwight92070]

Why don't you just come right out and say what you mean? - He saves because you have obeyed His commands by confessing that Jesus is Lord and being baptized in water. However, those are the things that Christians do after they get saved, not before. Before I got saved, I did not go around confessing that Jesus is Lord, nor did I get baptized. The only reason I eventually DID do those things, is because two weeks earlier, I DID get saved.
But if we want to be justified or saved, we are instructed to "not work, but to believe in Him who justifies the ungodly" Romans 4:5 - then and ONLY then will "our faith be credited as righteousness."

 

[Doug Brents]

Why don't you just come right out and say what you mean? - He saves because you have obeyed His commands by confessing that Jesus is Lord and being baptized in water. However, those are the things that Christians do after they get saved, not before.

Not according to Scripture. Confession of Jesus as Lord RESULTS IN receiving salvation (Rom 10:9-10). Repentance must be done SO THAT sins can be forgiven (Acts 3:19). And salvation is actually received during baptism in water (1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27).

Before I got saved, I did not go around confessing that Jesus is Lord, nor did I get baptized. The only reason I eventually DID do those things, is because two weeks earlier, I DID get saved.

Confession of Jesus as Lord should be the confession you give when you are baptized (in water) into Christ. No, you don't go around confessing Jesus as Lord for weeks before you are saved. Nor do you get baptized before you are saved (you are saved WHEN you are baptized).

But if we want to be justified or saved, we are instructed to "not work, but to believe in Him who justifies the ungodly" Romans 4:5 - then and ONLY then will "our faith be credited as righteousness."

Again you demonstrate that you think "believe" means "intellectual assent" rather than its actual meaning of "faith". We are instructed to "not work, but to have faith in Him..." and then "our faith is credited as righteousness". Faith is not just intellectual assent. It REQUIRES action, or it is not real.

 

[dwight92070]

Not according to Scripture. Confession of Jesus as Lord RESULTS IN receiving salvation (Rom 10:9-10). Repentance must be done SO THAT sins can be forgiven (Acts 3:19). And salvation is actually received during baptism in water (1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27).

Confession of Jesus as Lord should be the confession you give when you are baptized (in water) into Christ. No, you don't go around confessing Jesus as Lord for weeks before you are saved. Nor do you get baptized before you are saved (you are saved WHEN you are baptized).

Again you demonstrate that you think "believe" means "intellectual assent" rather than its actual meaning of "faith". We are instructed to "not work, but to have faith in Him..." and then "our faith is credited as righteousness". Faith is not just intellectual assent. It REQUIRES action, or it is not real.

No, the actual meaning of faith for justification has nothing to do with works. Romans 4:5 makes that clear. Good works, including confession of Jesus as Lord and water baptism, naturally are the fruit of salvation, not the means whereby we get saved.

"For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus" (You see that God is the ONLY ONE who does any work when we are created in Christ Jesus - or saved. The only thing we do is believe, which Rom.4:5 tells us is NOT a work.) (This new creation that only God can do is synonymous with "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body ...") "FOR GOOD WORKS" - Ephesians 2:10 - So the good works FOLLOW OUR SALVATION, THEY ARE NOT PERFORMED IN ORDER TO RECEIVE SALVATION.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT OF GOD; NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast."

Salvation is a gift of God which we receive by faith. No, baptism or confession cannot and does not bring about salvation. If they did, then we would have something to boast about. But the only thing we can boast about is His grace in forgiving us when we repented of our sins, and believed in Jesus Christ.

I believe you are misinterpreting Rom. 10:9-10. Paul is speaking to Roman Christians - they are already saved. They don't need to learn how to be saved. Rather, they need Paul to affirm or confirm their salvation. He is giving them assurance of the faith that they already have in them. Listen to his words here: "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart - that is the word of faith which we are preaching." They ALREADY HAD THAT FAITH IN THEM. He is assuring them that they are indeed saved, because they have both confessed with their mouth Jesus as Lord AND believed in their heart that God raised Him from the dead.

Some translations of those verses use "leading to" or "resulting in" righteousness and salvation, giving the impression that someone is receiving righteousness for the first time and receiving salvation for the first time, which contradicts the context. The context is Paul speaking to Christians who are already saved, but needing assurance of that salvation. If they didn't need that assurance, then Paul wouldn't have given these words to them. The actual Greek word is "eis" (1519 in the Strong's Concordance) which literally means "to" or "into" - NOT "leading to" or "resulting in".

So Romans 10:10 could be translated more accurately as follows:
"for with the heart a person believes into (or to) righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, into (or to) salvation."

Now the question is, using those literal translations, what is Paul saying? In context, these Romans were already saved, they had already received righteousness. So the translations "leading to" or "resulting in" cannot be correct, because they imply that a lost person is getting saved and receiving righteousness for the first time. The only reasonable explanation is that Paul is affirming and assuring them that because they have already confessed Jesus as Lord and already believed in their hearts that God raised Him from the dead - that they have indeed already received His righteousness and His salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

No, the actual meaning of faith for justification has nothing to do with works. Romans 4:5 makes that clear.

There is only one "faith". The faith by which we are justified is the same faith that we exhibit after we are saved. Rom 4:5 does not in any way indicate that there is no action necessary to receive salvation. It reiterates that we cannot "earn" salvation, but it does not say that all actions of faith come after salvation is received.

Good works, including confession of Jesus as Lord and water baptism, naturally are the fruit of salvation, not the means whereby we get saved.

Again, that is not what Scripture says.

"For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus" (You see that God is the ONLY ONE who does any work when we are created in Christ Jesus - or saved. The only thing we do is believe, which Rom.4:5 tells us is NOT a work.) (This new creation that only God can do is synonymous with "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body ...") "FOR GOOD WORKS" - Ephesians 2:10 - So the good works FOLLOW OUR SALVATION, THEY ARE NOT PERFORMED IN ORDER TO RECEIVE SALVATION.

Repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism are not "good works". There is absolutely no moral value in them, they do not fall under "pure religion" (James 1:27), and they are not a service that would bring glory to God. They are simply the actions that He commanded that He said lead to our receiving His gift.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT OF GOD; NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast."

Salvation is a gift of God which we receive by faith. No, baptism or confession cannot and does not bring about salvation. If they did, then we would have something to boast about. But the only thing we can boast about is His grace in forgiving us when we repented of our sins, and believed in Jesus Christ.

And again, this does NOT mean that there is no action necessary to receive salvation. It means that there is no action by which we can EARN salvation, no action by which we can merit salvation. Salvation is a gift and we cannot earn it, but we MUST do what He said is required to receive it.

I believe you are misinterpreting Rom. 10:9-10. Paul is speaking to Roman Christians - they are already saved.

And if I talk to you about you before you were saved, or about others who are not yet saved, do I not speak about you as if the things that you had to do to receive salvation are still ahead of you? Yes, the Romans to whom Paul is writing are already saved. But Paul is taking them back to before they were saved to the foundations of the Christian faith, and walking them through what was required for them and what is still required for everyone else who wants to receive salvation.

They don't need to learn how to be saved. Rather, they need Paul to affirm or confirm their salvation. He is giving them assurance of the faith that they already have in them. Listen to his words here: "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart - that is the word of faith which we are preaching." They ALREADY HAD THAT FAITH IN THEM. He is assuring them that they are indeed saved, because they have both confessed with their mouth Jesus as Lord AND believed in their heart that God raised Him from the dead.

You are making my point for me in what I highlighted in your comment. These were conditions upon which their reception was based, and are conditions upon which everyone else's salvation is also based. You cannot receive salvation if you have not done what it takes to receive it.

Some translations of those verses use "leading to" or "resulting in" righteousness and salvation, giving the impression that someone is receiving righteousness for the first time and receiving salvation for the first time, which contradicts the context.

That contradicts your preconception, so you want to reject it and rewrite the passage. But it does not contradict the context.

The context is Paul speaking to Christians who are already saved, but needing assurance of that salvation. If they didn't need that assurance, then Paul wouldn't have given these words to them. The actual Greek word is "eis" (1519 in the Strong's Concordance) which literally means "to" or "into" - NOT "leading to" or "resulting in".

The Greek "eis" can indeed mean "to" or "into", but those do not exclude the idea of "leading to" or "resulting in". If you go "into", you started outside and move to a position inside. This is exactly the concept of "resulting in". Before you confess Jesus as Lord you are outside of Christ, but confessing Him as Lord moves you toward being in Christ.

So Romans 10:10 could be translated more accurately as follows:
"for with the heart a person believes into (or to) righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, into (or to) salvation."

Precisely, you are outside of righteousness and salvation before you believe and confess, and when you believe and confess you move into Christ (receive salvation). This is not saying that you are already inside Christ before you believe and confess, which is what you are trying to make it say.

 

[dwight92070]

I agree there is one faith, but that faith can be directed toward different purposes or even persons. How many times did Jesus tell someone that He had just healed: "Your faith has saved (or healed) you." They put their faith in Him to be healed. When we put our faith in Jesus to save us, we trust only in Him and what He has done (His works) to save us. "We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works ..."

The only works done in salvation are His works, His workmanship, He creates us IN Christ Jesus, He causes us to be born again - for good works, which we will do AFTER He has saved us - such as confessing that Jesus is Lord, getting baptized in water, and then a whole lifetime of walking in good works.

Romans 4:5 says precisely that no physical actions on our part are required to receive salvation or justification. Our ONLY requirement is to believe in Him who justifies (saves) the ungodly. That's it! No confession that Jesus is Lord, no baptism in water - those would be works that we do. God will not accept our works to be saved.

Cain thought he could please God with the vegetables and fruit that he worked so hard to produce. God was not pleased with that. Abel, on the other hand, killed an animal and offered a blood sacrifice, which of course was a type of Christ's sacrifice for our sins. God was pleased with that. It did not represent man's works, but it represented the work of God.

To say that confession that Jesus is Lord and water baptism are required for salvation - is adding to what Jesus did on the cross. God accepts His sacrifice, nothing else - for our salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

I agree there is one faith, but that faith can be directed toward different purposes or even persons.

That would be different faiths. There is only one faith in Jesus, and it is the same before salvation is received as it is after.

How many times did Jesus tell someone that He had just healed: "Your faith has saved (or healed) you." They put their faith in Him to be healed. When we put our faith in Jesus to save us, we trust only in Him and what He has done (His works) to save us. "We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works ..."

The only works done in salvation are His works, His workmanship, He creates us IN Christ Jesus, He causes us to be born again -

I have never said any differently. Yes, it is His works that save us, and His righteousness that we receive.

for good works, which we will do AFTER He has saved us - such as confessing that Jesus is Lord, getting baptized in water, and then a whole lifetime of walking in good works.

The lifetime of walking in good works comes after we receive salvation. But repenting, confessing Jesus, and begin baptized must come BEFORE we receive salvation (or salvation is not received). That is what it means when Scripture says that these things RESULT IN salvation.

Romans 4:5 says precisely that no physical actions on our part are required to receive salvation or justification. Our ONLY requirement is to believe in Him who justifies (saves) the ungodly. That's it! No confession that Jesus is Lord, no baptism in water - those would be works that we do. God will not accept our works to be saved.

Again, you are saying that "belief" is just "intellectual assent", but that is not what Scripture says it is.

Cain thought he could please God with the vegetables and fruit that he worked so hard to produce. God was not pleased with that. Abel, on the other hand, killed an animal and offered a blood sacrifice, which of course was a type of Christ's sacrifice for our sins. God was pleased with that. It did not represent man's works, but it represented the work of God.

That is a very surface level understanding of what happened. Looking more deeply, we see that Cain offered "some" of the fruits of the land, But Abel offered the first and best of the flock he raised (Gen 4:3-4). And what was God's admonition to Cain? "If you do well, will your face not be cheerful? And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door;" (Gen 4:7).

To say that confession that Jesus is Lord and water baptism are required for salvation - is adding to what Jesus did on the cross. God accepts His sacrifice, nothing else - for our salvation.

You are taking away from what God said in Scripture so that it will fit with your chosen doctrine. Your doctrine must be molded to fit what Scripture says, not the other way around.

 

[TomL]

The baptism in Acts 2:1-4 is not baptism "en" the Holy Spirit. It is miraculous empowerment. Baptism "en" the Holy Spirit is the indwelling, and they already had that.

Really?

Acts 1:4–5 (LEB) — 4 And while he was with them, he commanded them, “Do not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for what was promised by the Father, which you heard about from me. 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Jesus shows you are in error

end pt1

 

[TomL]

The baptism in Acts 2:1-4 is not baptism "en" the Holy Spirit. It is miraculous empowerment. Baptism "en" the Holy Spirit is the indwelling, and they already had that.

These three cases show the distinction between the indwelling and miraculous empowerment of the Spirit. They are not the same as you seem to want to insist that they are.

Lets see

You are trying to claim Acts 2:1-4 was not an example of the baptism en the holy Ghost?

Thought Jesus himself had stated

Acts 1:5 (NASB95) — 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

at the time of his resurrection on the day of pentecost, Witnessed to by speaking in tongues?

This is important there existed the evidence of speaking in tonguesThe evidence

Though Peter knew the Gentiles had been baptised en the spirit

Acts 11:15–16 (NASB95) — 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

based upon the fact they had spoken in tongues

Acts 10:45–46 (NASB95) — 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,


Hello tongues are an evidence of having been baptised en the spirit

You remain in error and Your statement is inconsistent with scripture.

 

[TomL]

I did address this. The Holy Spirit falling on the Apostles on Pentecost is not evidence of their salvation (they already had salvation and the indwelling from John 20:22), so it is not evidence of the salvation of the Gentiles in Acts 10.

Let's see

First In Act 2:1-4 the Holy Spirit fell on more than the apostles

Second, John 20:22 was not the baptism en the holy Ghost, for they were later told

Acts 1:4–5 (LEB) — 4 And while he was with them, he commanded them, “Do not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for what was promised by the Father, which you heard about from me. 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

And seeing as you affirm the baptism en the Holy ghost as saving, you are contradicted

Regarding the salvation of the gentiles

I noted they were baptized en the Spirit which you claimed as saving

Acts 11:15–16 (NASB95) — 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

based upon the fact they had spoken in tongues

Acts 10:45–46 (NASB95) — 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,

thus you are refuted once again

Previously I also noted


The the fact the gentiles were stated to have received the spirit, to have been given the Spirit, and to have received the gift of the Spirit as well as been baptized en the spirit

Acts 10:44–47 (NASB95) — 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

Acts 11:15–17 (NASB95) — 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 “Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

Acts 15:8 (NASB95) — 8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

The gift of the Holy Spirit is what is promised here

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

and you call that saving and the gentiles received it thus refuting your claims once again

I also noted those facts led the Jews to conclude

Acts 11:15–18 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?” 18 And when they heard these things, they became silent and praised God, saying, “Then God has granted the repentance leading to life to the Gentiles also!”
Acts 15:8–9 (LEB) — 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.


The gentiles had faith and had as a result, had their heart purified and were granted life

your arguments are filled with error upon error

 

[Doug Brents]

You are trying to claim Acts 2:1-4 was not an example of the baptism en the holy Ghost?

Thought Jesus himself had stated

Acts 1:5 (NASB95) — 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

at the time of his resurrection on the day of pentecost, Witnessed to by speaking in tongues?

This is important there existed the evidence of speaking in tonguesThe evidence

Though Peter knew the Gentiles had been baptised en the spirit

Acts 11:15–16 (NASB95) — 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

based upon the fact they had spoken in tongues

Acts 10:45–46 (NASB95) — 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,


Hello tongues are an evidence of having been baptised en the spirit

You remain in error and Your statement is inconsistent with scripture.

You are inconsistent. First you claim that baptism "en" the Holy Spirit is not referring to miraculous empowerment, but now you claim that it is. Which is it?
Acts 2:1-4 describes how the Apostles (and the rest of the 120 in the upper room) who already had the indwelling of the Spirit (John 20:22) were empowered by the Holy Spirit with miraculous gifts. So if baptism "en" the Holy Spirit refers to miraculous empowerment, then yes, Acts 2:1-4 is an example of baptism "en" the Holy Spirit. But if baptism "en" the Holy Spirit is referring to salvation and the indwelling of the Spirit, then it is NOT an example of baptism "en" the Holy Spirit.

First In Act 2:1-4 the Holy Spirit fell on more than the apostles

Second, John 20:22 was not the baptism en the holy Ghost, for they were later told

Acts 1:4–5 (LEB) — 4 And while he was with them, he commanded them, “Do not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for what was promised by the Father, which you heard about from me. 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Ahh, so then baptism "en" the Holy Spirit IS referring to miraculous empowerment.

And seeing as you affirm the baptism en the Holy ghost as saving, you are contradicted

Regarding the salvation of the gentiles

I noted they were baptized en the Spirit which you claimed as saving

Acts 11:15–16 (NASB95) — 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Again, if baptism "en" the Holy Spirit refers to salvation, then this is not an example of it. But if baptism "en the Holy Spirit is referring to salvation then this is NOT an example of it.

based upon the fact they had spoken in tongues

Acts 10:45–46 (NASB95) — 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,

thus you are refuted once again

The fact that they spoke in tongues is evidence of miraculous empowerment, not salvation.

The the fact the gentiles were stated to have received the spirit, to have been given the Spirit, and to have received the gift of the Spirit as well as been baptized en the spirit

Acts 10:44–47 (NASB95) — 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

Acts 11:15–17 (NASB95) — 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 “Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

Acts 15:8 (NASB95) — 8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

And again, the gift of miraculous empowerment is not evidence of salvation.

BTW the gift of the Holy Spirit is what is promised here

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

and you call that saving and the gentiles received it

The indwelling of the Spirit does indeed occur during water baptism (the point at which we receive salvation). And the people on Pentecost were promised the gift of the Holy Spirit which in this verse is referring to both the indwelling and miraculous empowerment.

I also noted those facts led the Jews to conclude

Acts 11:15–18 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?” 18 And when they heard these things, they became silent and praised God, saying, “Then God has granted the repentance leading to life to the Gentiles also!”
Acts 15:8–9 (LEB) — 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

The gentiles had faith and had as a result had their heart purified and were granted life

your arguments are filled with error after error

The Gentiles had faith when they obeyed the Gospel message Peter brought to them and were baptized (in water) so that they could receive forgiveness of their sins, not when the Spirit fell on them in miraculous power.

 

[TomL]

You are inconsistent. First you claim that baptism "en" the Holy Spirit is not referring to miraculous empowerment, but now you claim that it is. Which is it?
Acts 2:1-4 describes how the Apostles (and the rest of the 120 in the upper room) who already had the indwelling of the Spirit (John 20:22) were empowered by the Holy Spirit with miraculous gifts. So if baptism "en" the Holy Spirit refers to miraculous empowerment, then yes, Acts 2:1-4 is an example of baptism "en" the Holy Spirit. But if baptism "en" the Holy Spirit is referring to salvation and the indwelling of the Spirit, then it is NOT an example of baptism "en" the Holy Spirit.

You are rather confused. Quote me

Show where I claim the baptism en the holy ghost has no empowerment rather than denying it is a mere empowerment transmitting a sp;iritual gift.

But lets for the moment stick to scripture

Acts 1:5 (LEB) — 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Did Jesus not tell the apostles they would be baptized en the spirit a few days from now

Did you not state the baptism en the Holy Ghost is saving

How then can you consistently argue the apostles (and what about all the others on the day of pentecost) were already saved

Ahh, so then baptism "en" the Holy Spirit IS referring to miraculous empowerment.

Um you claimed it was saving

You are now contradicted yourself

first you conflate my comments and then you contradict yourself.

Again, if baptism "en" the Holy Spirit refers to salvation, then this is not an example of it. But if baptism "en the Holy Spirit is referring to salvation then this is NOT an example of it.

Once again we have your statement it is saving

and we have Jesus statement

Acts 1:5 (LEB) — 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

BTW your sentence repeats the same thing twice

and all you are doing is denying the evidence

The evidence shows the baptism en the spirit was accompanied by a speaking in tongues

for regarding the gentiles, we see

Acts 11:15–16 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

They were baptized en the Spirit.

Acts 10:45–46 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said,

and they spoke in tongues

just as we see at Pentecost

So on the day of Pentecost we had a baptism en the Spirit just as Jesus had stated there would be

As a result your doctrine is completely convoluted and you wind up contradicting yourself

 

[Doug Brents]

But lets for the moment stick to scripture

Acts 1:5 (LEB) — 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Did Jesus not tell the apostles they would be baptized en the spirit a few days from now

Did you not state the baptism en the Holy Ghost is saving

How then can you consistently argue the apostles (and what about all the others on the day of pentecost) were already saved

The Apostles had already received the indwelling of the Spirit when Jesus gave Him to them in John 20:22. Jesus also told them that they were already clean (John 13:10). The Apostles, along with the rest of the 120 in the upper room, were already saved on Pentecost. That is why the Holy Spirit was able to ADD to their number rather than starting from zero on Pentecost.

Thus, the Holy Spirit falling on them in power was not a salvation event. It was simply the Holy Spirit empowering them just as Jesus said He would.

Um you claimed it was saving

You are now contradicted yourself

first you conflate my comments and then you contradict yourself.

No contradictions. You are the one confusing this. The baptism of the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus, received by the Apostles on Pentecost and Cornelius in his house, is not a salvation event. It is NOT referring to the indwelling of the Spirit that all who are saved receive.

So define your term (baptism "en" the Holy Spirit). Are you referring to the indwelling? Or are you referring to miraculous empowerment?
If you are referring to the indwelling, then you cannot apply it to Pentecost, or Cornelius, or any other miraculous work of the Spirit.
If you are referring to miraculous empowerment, then it is what happened on Pentecost and with Cornelius, but is not related to salvation.

 

[dwight92070]

That would be different faiths. There is only one faith in Jesus, and it is the same before salvation is received as it is after.

I have never said any differently. Yes, it is His works that save us, and His righteousness that we receive.

The lifetime of walking in good works comes after we receive salvation. But repenting, confessing Jesus, and begin baptized must come BEFORE we receive salvation (or salvation is not received). That is what it means when Scripture says that these things RESULT IN salvation.

Again, you are saying that "belief" is just "intellectual assent", but that is not what Scripture says it is.

That is a very surface level understanding of what happened. Looking more deeply, we see that Cain offered "some" of the fruits of the land, But Abel offered the first and best of the flock he raised (Gen 4:3-4). And what was God's admonition to Cain? "If you do well, will your face not be cheerful? And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door;" (Gen 4:7).

You are taking away from what God said in Scripture so that it will fit with your chosen doctrine. Your doctrine must be molded to fit what Scripture says, not the other way around.

The scripture DOES NOT SAY that confessing and baptizing RESULT in salvation, as you said in #1051. First of all, Romans 10:9-10 says NOTHING about baptism. You're pulling baptism into these verses, but it's not even there. In fact, if confessing Jesus as Lord results in salvation, then there would no need to add baptism to ensure salvation, would there?

 

[Doug Brents]

The scripture DOES NOT SAY that confessing and baptizing RESULT in salvation, as you said in #1051. First of all, Romans 10:9-10 says NOTHING about baptism. You're pulling baptism into these verses, but it's not even there. In fact, if confessing Jesus as Lord results in salvation, then there would no need to add baptism to ensure salvation, would there?

ALL SCRIPTURE must be considered, consulted, and accepted before any doctrine can be accepted.
You cannot take Rom 10:9-10 as being all there is to being saved unless it is the ONLY verse that speaks of what is required to be saved. But we have 1 Pet 3:21, and Acts 22:16, and John 3:16, and Acts 3:19, and so many other passages that talk about what is required to be saved.

You are right, Rom 10:9-10 does not speak about baptism of any kind. But 1 Pet 3:21 does, and it says that baptism in water saves us. And Rom 6:1-7 talks about baptism as being the point at which we die to sin and are united to Christ's resurrection. And Eph 4:5 says that there is only one baptism in the NT Church, so these must be the same baptism. And Acts 8:36 tells us that Philip taught the eunuch about water baptism as part of the Gospel, and when they came to water the eunuch requested to be baptized. And Jesus said that we cannot be saved (enter the Kingdom of God) without being born again of both the Spirit and water.

All of these passages must be considered together, not in isolation, not exclusively, not standing alone. They all come from the same inerrant voice (God's), and as such must all be true at the same time.

 

[dwight92070]

So if 1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism in water saves us, but Romans 10:10 tells us that confession of Jesus as Lord saves us and Ephesians 2:8 tells us that we are saved by grace through faith - which is it?

Well, 2 of these are physical works done by man. Only one of these is a work of the heart, done by God, creating us in Christ Jesus by grace through faith - not through confession nor through baptism. Biblical salvation is supernatural.