So then obviously it must be the baptism en the spirit is the one true baptism. Water did not supply the Spirit in Acts 8, 10, 19.
If you are going to make being born of water - water baptism, then born of the spirit must be Spirit baptism.
The Water Baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
If you are going to make being born of water - water baptism, then born of the spirit must be Spirit baptism.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Baptism "en" the Spirit occurs during water baptism. The two are inseparable.
Baptism "en" the Spirit did not occur when the Spirit fell on Cornelius in Acts 10:34, but it did occur in Acts 10:48 during their water baptism.
Baptism "en" the Spirit occurred in Acts 19:5. In Acts 6, the Samaritans received the same gift of the Spirit that Cornelius did in Acts 10:34 (miraculous signs).
Well, guess what?
The gentiles were baptized en the Spirit before water baptism
Water baptism did not supply the baptism en the Spirit to the Samaritans.
The disciples in Acts 19 were not baptized until Paul layed hands on them
Peterlag
Well-known member
Water baptism is a carryover from part of the Levitical Law. There are many examples of people in the Old Testament who would wash themselves with water as a final step to being clean. Water baptism was an outward sign of washing, and then you would be clean to God. Baptism in water, and the need to be circumcised passed away with the coming of Pentecost, as did the other Levitical Laws. To be led by the spirit is to not be under the yoke of bondage with the extreme of legalism, seeking the works of the flesh from the old covenant concerning the past Law administration that was written to Israel.
It's clear from the gospels that water baptism had to do with the kingdom, which was ministered by John who was known as the Baptizer, and not a minister for the Church of God. John who was a prophet functioning under the old covenant was appointed by God to prepare and confirm the promises made to Israel. His message was to tell those who lived under the old covenant that the king had come and “the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” He used water as a sign to baptize those who believed the promised Messiah would be coming in just a matter of months and to illustrate that he would be the Christ, who would baptize them not with material water, but with holy spirit, which is “power from on high.” From the habit of tradition, and only for a short period of time, a small handful of people were baptized with water into the New Testament, but never again afterwards.
In the epistles written just a little bit past the beginning of the New Testament is where we read the only time water baptism is mentioned is to note there is no more need for it, and that we are now to be baptized with holy spirit. And this is why in Acts 2:38, Peter commands “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ.” In Acts 8:16, Peter and John “baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” In Acts 10:48, Peter “commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.” In Romans 6:3, it declares “that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ.” There is not one exception to this practice where we see water baptism, which belonged to the time period when Christ walked the earth, being used once the Church of God had become established. To suggest water baptism has anything to do with the only begotten resurrected Son of God, who is functioning within the New Testament as the head of the body of Christ, has led to nothing but confusion and has provided a bomb that has blown the local churches into pieces.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
According to your self-deception. But not according to Scripture.
Yes, it did.
"When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying."
So according to you they were not baptized until Paul laid hands on them. Scripture says you are wrong. They were baptized (in which they were saved and received the indwelling of the Spirit), and THEN Paul laid hands on them and they received miraculous empowerment of the Spirit.. Hmmm.
Um this is scripture
Acts 11:15–17 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?”
Acts 10:44–47 (LEB) — 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who were listening to the message. 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”
You are plainly in denial
Again you speak contrary to scripture
The Spirit had not fallen on them
Acts 8:14–19 (LEB) — 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who went down and prayed for them so that they would receive the Holy Spirit. 16 (For he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then they placed their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now Simon, when he saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, offered them money, 19 saying, “Give to me also this power, so that whomever I place my hands on may receive the Holy Spirit!”
It was not until hands were placed on the Samaritans that they were baptized en the Spirit. A fact Simon could see.
The Holy Spirit came upon them when Paul layed hands on them, not when they were water baptised
Notice the sign of the baptism en the spirit
they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
This was a common sign back then
They were not baptized en the spirit until this happened
Sorry the passage does not state they received the Spirit during water baptism
Sorry there was no water baptism in Acts 2:1-18
Acts 2:1–18 (LEB) — 1 And when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in the same place. 2 And suddenly a sound like a violent rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues like fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages as the Spirit gave them ability to speak out. 5 Now there were Jews residing in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd gathered and was in confusion, because each one was hearing them speaking in his own language. 7 And they were astounded and astonished, saying, “Behold, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how do we hear, each one of us, in our own native language? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and those residing in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya toward Cyrene, and the Romans who were in town, 11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own languages the great deeds of God!” 12 And all were amazed and greatly perplexed, saying to one another, “What can this mean?” 13 But others jeered and said, “They are full of sweet new wine!” 14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them, “Judean men, and all those who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and pay attention to my words! 15 For these men are not drunk, as you assume, because it is the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel: 17 ‘And it will be in the last days,’ God says, ‘I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams. 18 And even on my male slaves and on my female slaves I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
There are three baptisms in scripture, identified by three different baptizers.
Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1 Corinthians 10:1-2
- all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
The baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:3 refers to the Holy Spirit baptizing us into Christ, which corresponds to being baptized into Moses.
This occurs when we are first saved by believing the Gospel, and we are born again; born of the Spirit. This is the work of the Spirit.
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13
- by one Spirit we were all baptized
Next we have baptism in water, in which man does the baptizing. This was initially done by John the Baptist, then continued by the disciples.
- for John truly baptized with water
This correlates to being baptized in the sea.
And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5
Finally, we have the baptism with the Holy Spirit, in which Jesus Christ is the Baptizer.
- for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit
I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Mark 1:8
This correlates to being baptized in the cloud.
JLB
Additionally
Matthew 20:22–23 (KJV 1900) — 22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. 23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Mark 10:38–39 (LEB) — 38 But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking! Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?” 39 And they said to him, “We are able.” So Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup that I drink, and you will be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with,
mailmandan
Well-known member
Yes, and in Luke 12:50, Jesus said, "But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!"
Now of course, Jesus was not distressed about water baptism, but being "immersed" into suffering, namely His sacrificial death on the cross.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
You are confusing miraculous empowerment with the indwelling of the Spirit. Miraculous empowerment is not evidence of salvation, indwelling is. You cannot see the indwelling of the Spirit directly. But you can see/hear miraculous empowerment (speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc.), and this is what Simon saw and wanted to buy. The indwelling of the Spirit is received at the instant of salvation, which is why the Samaritans, Cornelius, etc. received it during water baptism. But they all received miraculous empowerment at different times, some before salvation and some after.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Please show me where I said there was.
Um you stated the baptism en the spirit happens during water baptism
Hello You have been shown multiple examples where it did not, As evidenced with signs following
Doug Brents
Well-known member
And how does that relate to Acts 2:1-18? There is nothing in that passage about baptism "en" the Holy Spirit. It only relates to miraculous empowerment of the Spirit to those who already had the indwelling of the Spirit from John 20:22.
Are you saying that baptism "en" the Holy Spirit only refers to miraculous empowerment, and has nothing to do with salvation?
Sorry you denied plain scripture
Acts 11:15–17 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?”
Peter clearly shows the gentiles were baptized en the Spirit
Acts 10:44–47 (LEB) — 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who were listening to the message. 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”
You are plainly in denial as tongues were an evidence of being baptized en the Spirit
Again you speak contrary to scripture
The Spirit had not fallen on them
Acts 8:14–19 (LEB) — 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who went down and prayed for them so that they would receive the Holy Spirit. 16 (For he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then they placed their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now Simon, when he saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, offered them money, 19 saying, “Give to me also this power, so that whomever I place my hands on may receive the Holy Spirit!”
It was not until hands were placed on the Samaritans that they were baptized en the Spirit. A fact Simon could see. Obviously there was a sign accompanying their being baptized en the spirit
The Holy Spirit came upon them when Paul layed hands on them, not when they were water baptised
Notice the sign of the baptism en the spirit
they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
This was a common sign back then
They were not baptized en the spirit until this happened
Sorry the passage does not state they received the Spirit during water baptism
What did Jesus state?
Acts 1:4–5 (LEB) — 4 And while he was with them, he commanded them, “Do not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for what was promised by the Father, which you heard about from me. 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
What did Peter state
Acts 11:15–16 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
The gentiles were baptized en the spirit
and tongues was the evidence of both
Acts 2:1–4 (LEB) — 1 And when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in the same place. 2 And suddenly a sound like a violent rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues like fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages as the Spirit gave them ability to speak out.
Acts 10:45–46 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said,
BTW I have never stated or implied the baptism en the Holy ghost only refers to miraculous empowerment
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I denied nothing. You interpret all mentions of "receiving the Spirit" as baptism "en" the Spirit. But that is not proper interpretation. Just because one is "baptized with the Holy Spirit" doesn't mean that they are saved, nor does it require salvation for the Holy Spirit to impart miraculous gifts.
They did indeed receive miraculous gifts, but that does not mean that they received the indwelling of the Spirit. We have been through this already, but you refuse to accept the truth.
Tongues are indeed evidence of the working of the Spirit, but they are not evidence of salvation and the indwelling of the Spirit.
The Spirit had not given them miraculous gifts (which Simon would be able to see), but they had been baptized into Christ, and had therefore received the indwelling of the Spirit. Again, these are two different functions of the Holy Spirit which you are equating as one.
Um you denied the verse posted
Acts 11:15–17 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?”
What Peter saw reminded him of Christ's promise to baptize with the Spirit
They received the Spirit
The gift of the Spirit which is mentioned in Acts 2:38 which you hold speaks of the indwelling
Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10:45 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,
You need to stop denying scripture
They are evidence of the baptism en the Spirit
And that men have received the gift of the Spirit (Acts 2:38 again and your position this includes the indwelling.)
Acts 10:45–46 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said,
tongues were evidence they had received that promise
Your theology is contrary to scripture
Sorry scripture states they had not received the spirit. If they were indwelt, they would have received the spirit.
Again your claims are contrary to scripture
You appear to be contradicting yourself now
You had previously stated men are baptized en the Spirit during water baptism and that the water by itself just makes wet
Your statements below
so it must be the baptism en the spirit that saves
And your position is in tatters
Last edited:
Doug Brents
Well-known member
And you think this refers to a salvation event? No, the Apostles had already received salvation, and the indwelling of the Spirit (John 20:22). So the baptism of the Holy Spirit mentioned here does not equate to salvation. It only refers to the reception of miraculous empowerment.
Again, only indicating miraculous empowerment, not salvation/indwelling.
Miraculous empowerment, not salvation.
Again, miraculous empowerment, not salvation.
Then it only refers to salvation, and the cases you point out above are not baptism "en" the Holy Spirit.
Similar threads
