The mediocrity of Unitarianism. Where are the "John the Beloveds" in Unitarianism?

[praise_yeshua]

Talking and praying aren't the same thing. You talk to people, but you aren't praying to them. You pray, and it involves talking, but it's more nuanced than that. People do talk to Jesus in the Bible and elsewhere, but are never said to have prayed to him. Once again, you don't study enough and you talk too much before you think clearly about what you're saying.

How predictable. You show little you know about prayer.

Asking is praying.

Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Praying is asking......

Don't let synonyms get in your way of understanding. You're a pitiful excuse for a "teacher". You are your own idol in your own mind.

 

[Runningman]

How predictable. You show little you know about prayer.

Asking is praying.

Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Praying is asking......

Don't let synonyms get in your way of understanding. You're a pitiful excuse for a "teacher". You are your own idol in your own mind.

So when you ask any of your friends and family for something, you're praying to them?

 

[praise_yeshua]

So when you ask any of your friends and family for something, you're praying to them?

I ask for things I need from them. That is pray that they will help me when I can't help myself.

You need to realize you need Jesus. You can't be what you claim to be with help from Jesus.

Jesus often went to a mountain apart to pray. Pray includes fellowship. Understanding. We needs those too....

I would to God that stop this nonsense you're believing.

 

[Runningman]

I ask for things I need from them. That is pray that they will help me when I can't help myself.

You need to realize you need Jesus. You can't be what you claim to be with help from Jesus.

Jesus often went to a mountain apart to pray. Pray includes fellowship. Understanding. We needs those too....

I would to God that stop this nonsense you're believing.

So you show awareness that there is a difference between praying, talking, and asking. Let me introduce you to the fact that the Bible has no examples of anyone praying to Jesus. I am sure you will argue, but you won't find any specific commandments or examples where they are said to use to word "pray" or "prayer" to describe talking to Jesus. Start with Matthew 6:6,9 and that will be your ticket to know who to pray to and how to pray.

 

[TomL]

So you show awareness that there is a difference between praying, talking, and asking. Let me introduce you to the fact that the Bible has no examples of anyone praying to Jesus. I am sure you will argue, but you won't find any specific commandments or examples where they are said to use to word "pray" or "prayer" to describe talking to Jesus. Start with Matthew 6:6,9 and that will be your ticket to know who to pray to and how to pray.

False

These note prayer to Jesus

John 14:13–14 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
Acts 7:59–60 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
1 Cor 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
James 5:13–18 (NASB 95) — 13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. 18 Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.

 

[FreeInChrist]

So you show awareness that there is a difference between praying, talking, and asking. Let me introduce you to the fact that the Bible has no examples of anyone praying to Jesus. I am sure you will argue, but you won't find any specific commandments or examples where they are said to use to word "pray" or "prayer" to describe talking to Jesus. Start with Matthew 6:6,9 and that will be your ticket to know who to pray to and how to pray.

Actually, the New Testament records several clear examples of people praying directly to Jesus calling on His name, crying out to Him for help, thanking Him, and even worshipping Him in prayer. Here are the clearest ones:”

Acts 7:59–60 – Stephen’s martyrdom (the clearest example)“While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, ‘Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.’ Then he fell on his knees and cried out, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’”.. He addresses Jesus directly as “Lord” (Κύριε Ἰησοῦ) and asks Him to receive his spirit and forgive sins—classic elements of prayer.

Acts 9:14, 21 / 1 Corinthians 1:2 – Early Christians “call on the name of the Lord Jesus ”Paul’s former persecuting authority was that Christians “call on [Jesus’] name.” Paul later defines the church as “all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor 1:2)..... “Calling on the name of the Lord” is Old Testament language for prayer/worship (Joel 2:32, quoted in Acts 2:21 & Rom 10:13), now applied directly to Jesus.

John 14:14 – Jesus Himself invites prayer to Him “If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.” (Some manuscripts read “ask Me”; even if it’s “ask anything in My name,” the early church clearly understood it as praying to Jesus.)

Acts 9:10–16 – Ananias speaks to the Lord Jesus in a vision Ananias says, “Lord, I have heard…” and the Lord (explicitly identified as Jesus in v. 17) answers him directly.

Acts 22:16 – Paul is told, “Get up, be baptized… calling on his name.”

2 Corinthians 12:8–9 – Paul prays to the Lord three times for the thorn to be removed The Lord (explicitly Christ, see v. 9: “My grace is sufficient for you…”) answers him personally.

Revelation 22:20 – The final prayer in the Bible“Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!” ...direct prayer to Jesus asking Him to return.

Thomas’ confession in John 20:28“My Lord and my God!” ... uttered directly to the risen Jesus, and Jesus accepts it as proper worship.

The Lord’s Supper – “This do in remembrance of Me” (1 Cor 11:23–26) was understood by the earliest Christians as addressing Christ Himself present at the Table (see 1 Cor 10:16, 21).

So the New Testament actually gives us multiple examples.....Stephen, Paul, Ananias, Thomas, the entire early church, and even the last verse of Revelation..........all praying to Jesus or calling on the name of Jesus. The idea that ‘no one in the Bible ever prayed to Jesus’ simply doesn’t match what the text actually records.

It helps to read the bible.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I'm 71, been Unitarian all my life, and I find you to be disgusting.

I love Jesus with all my heart. I sing and play instruments to praise and honor his name.

Jesus was divine. The trinity triangle is 100% hogwash.

divine /dĭ-vīn′/

adjective​

1. Having the nature of or being a deity.
2. Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity.
   "sought divine guidance through meditation."
3. Being in the service or worship of a deity; sacred.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition

So you got it right about Jesus.... Jesus is God.

 

[Durg]

How many times does the Old Testament say God cannot be a man?

Numbers 23:19 KJV
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29 KJV
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Hosea 11:9 KJV
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Job 9:32 KJV
For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.

Hebrews 6:18
So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

Numbers 23:19 KJV
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29 KJV
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent

Hosea 11:9 KJV
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Job 9:32 KJV
For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.\par

Hebrews 6:18
So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

If they are equal, why did Jesus say in John 14:28

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."

Why did he say in John 10:29,

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

And why did Jesus say in John 13:16

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

 

[Durg]

I have no problems with Jesus being divine - I have problems with the nonsense that he, Jesus, who is fully human in every way, can ALSO be God and can also be another person whom we have no name for - the holy spirit!

 

[mikesw]

How many times does the Old Testament say God cannot be a man?

Numbers 23:19 KJV
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29 KJV
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Hosea 11:9 KJV
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Job 9:32 KJV
For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.

Hebrews 6:18
So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

Numbers 23:19 KJV
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29 KJV
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent

Hosea 11:9 KJV
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Job 9:32 KJV
For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.\par

Hebrews 6:18
So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

If they are equal, why did Jesus say in John 14:28

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."

Why did he say in John 10:29,

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

And why did Jesus say in John 13:16

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

The odd thing is that none of those verses deny the incarnation to flesh. The OT passages of course are correct that God is not a man. The essential point is that God does not make decisions in the flesh and foolish way of man. None of those OT passages deny God's ability to send the One who was with the Father in creation into flesh.
You have some catching up to do to see all the flaws of unitarianism that have been shared. Are you then Christadelphian?

 

[civic]

I have no problems with Jesus being divine - I have problems with the nonsense that he, Jesus, who is fully human in every way, can ALSO be God and can also be another person whom we have no name for - the holy spirit!

You are describing oneness or Modalism

 

[Durg]

You are describing oneness or Modalism

I don't label my rejection of trinity as anything other than God if the Father, Jesus is His son, and the holy spirit is the power of God. No complications, no mystery.

 

[Durg]

The odd thing is that none of those verses deny the incarnation to flesh. The OT passages of course are correct that God is not a man. The essential point is that God does not make decisions in the flesh and foolish way of man. None of those OT passages deny God's ability to send the One who was with the Father in creation into flesh.
You have some catching up to do to see all the flaws of unitarianism that have been shared. Are you then Christadelphian?

Why do so many of you label your Christianity? I'm Catholic at heart, raised Catholic. Was a Pentecostal preacher in the 70's. I currently go to Christ the King Parish where THEY KNOW I'm non trinitarian. I've studied enough to know Trinity is diabolical nonsense.

 

[Durg]

You are describing oneness or Modalism

Call it what you like I don't care because you guys think you know everything there is to know about - everything there is to know about.

 

[mikesw]

Why do so many of you label your Christianity? I'm Catholic at heart, raised Catholic. Was a Pentecostal preacher in the 70's. I currently go to Christ the King Parish where THEY KNOW I'm non trinitarian. I've studied enough to know Trinity is diabolical nonsense.

that's kind of weird anti-knowledge about the Trinity. The Trinity makes the most sense of scripture so I hold that. Other views diminish who Christ is. The most critical is recognizing the deity of Christ in pre-existence. That of course is the concern. It is interesting though about the two groups you have been part of -- if I read you history correctly.

I could accept a different view than the Trinity if it ends up making more sense of scripture. That is why I first went into the View of the Trinity thread.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I have no problems with Jesus being divine - I have problems with the nonsense that he, Jesus, who is fully human in every way, can ALSO be God and can also be another person whom we have no name for - the holy spirit!

Can you explain Philippians 2:7?

 

[civic]

Call it what you like I don't care because you guys think you know everything there is to know about - everything there is to know about.

The Trinity is not the three are one person which is modalism, but that the 3 Persons are the One God.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The Trinity is not the three are one person which is modalism, but that the 3 Persons are the One God

Question.

Why so you think it is so difficult for so many to not understand this?

 

[civic]

Question.

Why so you think it is so difficult for so many to not understand this?

Its a spiritual issue 100 %. When a person is close minded, bias and reading the bible with the presupposition that Jesus is not God then over time its like a callous that over time gets harder and harder until finally like we read in Romans 1 God will turn them over to their own depraved minds. The mind of the flesh is hostile towards the things of the spirit and cannot understand or discern them- as Paul says they are "foolishness" to them. And we also have the enemy of blinds them to the truth and the glory that is hidden in Christ as per 2 Cor 4:4. So they are getting it from both ends- God and satan. Think of it as a type of " double" jeopardy. Its a spiritual war against the Holy Spirit, Son and Father. They already have 3 strikes against them and the 4th which is satan. Actually after thinking about it they also have a 5th strike against them- the testimony of scriptures as a witness against them. Thats allot of strikes against someone.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Durg]

that's kind of weird anti-knowledge about the Trinity. The Trinity makes the most sense of scripture so I hold that. Other views diminish who Christ is. The most critical is recognizing the deity of Christ in pre-existence. That of course is the concern. It is interesting though about the two groups you have been part of -- if I read you history correctly.

I could accept a different view than the Trinity if it ends up making more sense of scripture. That is why I first went into the View of the Trinity thread.

It absolutely does NOT diminish who Christ is! It builds up who he is!

Think about this - AGAIN, if Jesus was God in the flesh, he would not have to overcome sin because God cannot sin or be tempted to sin! Jesus was the creator/designer of THIS planet, and this is the ONE he died for. He did exist before Abraham but he had a beginning. Angels are called sons of God.

The word firstborn implies having a beginning and being created. The word FIRSTBORN is used 117 times in the bible. Only 7 times in the NT.

Here are ALL the places I've found where the word FIRSTBORN is used. Show me where it implies ETERNAL!

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"firstborn" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.

www.blueletterbible.org

Strong's... "who came into being through God prior to the entire universe of created things (R. V. the firstborn of all creation)"

You can't do it because ONE doesn't exist!

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn G4416 son: and he called his name JESUS.

And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn G4416 of every creature:

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn G4416 from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.\par

Through faith he kept the Passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten G4416 of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

In every instance where the word 'firstborn' is used, whether it's about the firstborn among the brethren, or the firstborn over all creation, or the firstborn from among the dead, or the firstborn into the world - or anything else - it always implies a beginning!

NOT ONCE does it imply ETERNAL. The Textus Receptus uses the terminology, "BEFORE-most-BROUGHT-FORTH."