The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

Heretics (Unitarians, Judaizers, Muslims, JWs, etc...) are all the same. They all seem to have come from the same school. First they say that the Bible aligns with their beliefs. And when they realize that the Bible doesn't align then they start to disparage it as being altered/corrupted. The Bible then becomes your Bible. It's like when your wife says to talk to your son about something he's done. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

CC: @praise_yeshua , @civic
Well, just be aware that the same thing they often think about you.
That's the challenge we must face.
Both sides think that the others are cherry-picking what fits their pre-established theories.
 
I can share my opinion and I would like to know yours.

"Becoming flesh" means that all thoughts, words and acts reflect perfectly God's Message (God's Word).

You know what my answer is..... you've my read commentary for how long now?

Flesh is flesh. Remember those words?

"thoughts, words, and acts" are not themselves "flesh". They come through flesh but they are not flesh themselves.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

If you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd know this already.

You "conflate" everything as if there are no distinct delineations anywhere. I stopped communicating with you for a reason. Christianity is not a requirement in your theology. You're a practicing Universalist. There are NO absolutes with you.
 
Rev 3:21 says that Jesus sat down with His Father in His Father's Throne and that proves that the Father's "Right Hand" is not amputated away metaphorically, positionally, or any other way you want to spin it.
The Bible presents Jesus repeatedly and consistently sitting or standing outside the throne where God sits.
When I say "repeatedly and consistently" I mean more than 10 verses, including the Book of Revelation itself.
There is no way to sit on the right of the throne while being sitting on such throne.

One single verse cannot contradict 12 or 15, and certainly Revelation 3:21 does not contradict them. Revelation 3:21 is speaking of "throne" as government. What's the evidence? Revelation 3:21 itself! Millions are able to sit in the same government of Christ, without being Christ, such as Christ sits in God's government, without being God.
 
Well, just be aware that the same thing they often think about you.
That's the challenge we must face.
Both sides think that the others are cherry-picking what fits their pre-established theories.

There is no peace to be found until the Prince of Peace establishes His Eternal Kingdom. Jesus Christ will destroy those that reject Him.

Satan lives in every "false sense of peace" you try to establish outside of Jesus Christ.
 
My book as a good 157 pages. What claim are you referring to when you say I failed to address the rebuttal to the claim of my book?
When jesus became God


He is Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness.” Barnabas (c. 70–130, E), 1.139.

Let us reverence the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood was given for us. Clement of Rome (c. 96, W), 1.11.

God Himself was manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.58.

Continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ, our God. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.68.

I pray for your happiness forever in our God, Jesus Christ. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.96.

The Christians trace the beginning of their religion to Jesus the Messiah. He is called the Son of the Most High God. It is said that God came down from heaven. He assumed flesh and clothed Himself with it from a Hebrew virgin. And the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. Aristides (c. 125, E), 9.265.

Truly God Himself, who is Almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, the One who is the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word.… God did not, as one might have imagined, send to men any servant, angel, or ruler.… Rather, He sent the very Creator and Fashioner of all things—by whom He made the heavens.… As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so God sent Him. He sent Him as God. Letter to Diognetus (c. 125–200), 1.27.

Brethren, it is fitting that you should think of Jesus Christ as of God—as the Judge of the living and the dead. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.517.

We reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.

The Word, … He is Divine. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.

The Father of the universe has a Son. And He, being the First-Begotten Word of God, is even God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.184.

Next to God, we worship and love the Word who is from the unbeggoten and ineffable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.193.

For Christ is King, Priest, God, Lord, Angel, and Man. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.211.

[TRYPHO, A JEW:] You utter many blasphemies, in that you seek to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, and spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.213.

Moses … declares that He who appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre is God. He was sent with the two angels in His company to judge Sodom by another One, who remains ever in the supercelestial places, invisible to all men, holding personal contact with no one. We believe this other One to be the Maker and Father of all things.… Yet, there is said to be another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things. And He is also called an Angel, because he announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things—above whom there is no other God—wishes to announce to them. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.223.

He deserves to be worshipped as God and as Christ. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.229.

David predicted that He would be born from the womb before the sun and moon, according to the Father’s will. He made Him known, being Christ, as God, strong and to be worshipped. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.237.

The Son ministered to the will of the Father. Yet, nevertheless, He is God, in that He is the First-Begotten of all creatures. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.262.

If you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the Only, Unbegotten, Unutterable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.263.

“Rejoice, O you heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship Him” [Deut. 32:43]. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.264.

He is forever the first in power. For Christ, being the First-Born of every creature, became again the chief of another race regenerated by Himself through water, faith, and wood. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.268.

Then did the whole creation see clearly that for man’s sake the Judge was condemned, and the Invisible was seen, and the Illimitable was circumscribed, and the Impassible suffered, and the Immortal died, and the Celestial was laid in the grave. Melito (c. 170, E), 8.756.

God was put to death, the King of Israel slain! Melito (c. 170, E), 8.758.

There is the one God and the Logos proceeding from Him, the Son. We understand that the Son is inseparable from Him. Athenagoras (c. 175, E), 2.137.

God by His own Word and Wisdom made all things. Theophilus (c. 180, E), 2.91.

“Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; the scepter of Your kingdom is a right scepter. You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity. Therefore, God, Your God, has anointed You.” For the Spirit designates by the name of God—both Him who is anointed as Son, and He who anoints, that is, the Father. And again, “God stood in the congregation of the gods; He judges among the gods.” Here he refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.419.

For He fulfills the bountiful and comprehensive will of His Father, inasmuch as He is Himself the Savior of those who are saved, and the Lord of those who are under authority, and the God of all those things that have been formed, the Only-Begotten of the Father. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.443.

I have shown from the Scriptures that none of the sons of Adam are, absolutely and as to everything, called God, or named Lord. But Jesus is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word.… He is the Holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.449.

Thus He indicates in clear terms that He is God, and that His advent was in Bethlehem.… God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.451.

He is God, for the name Emmanuel indicates this. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.452.

Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.467.

Now the father of the human race is the Word of God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.505.

How can they be saved unless it was God who worked out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has first passed into man? Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.507.

It is plain that He was Himself the Word of God, who was made the son of man. He received from the Father the power of remission of sins. He was man, and He was God. This was so that since as man He suffered for us, so as God He might have compassion on us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.545.

He is God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand. And with the form of God, He is God. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.210.

There is a suggestion of the divinity of the Lord in [Isaac’s] not being slain. Jesus rose again after His burial, having suffered no harm—just like Isaac was released from being sacrificed. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.

O the great God! O the perfect child! The Son in the Father and the Father in the Son.… God the Word, who became man for our sakes. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.

The Father of all is alone perfect, for the Son is in Him and the Father is in the Son. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.222.

Our Instructor is the holy God Jesus, the Word. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.223.

Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one—that is, God. For He has said, “In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God.” Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.225.

He who has the Almighty God, the Word, is in want of nothing. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.281.

Pointing to the First-Begotten Son, Peter writes, accurately comprehending the statement, “In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.” And He is called Wisdom by all the prophets. This is He who is the Teacher of all created beings. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.493.


David W. Bercot, ed., “Christ, Divinity Of,” A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1998), 93–95.
 
The Bible presents Jesus repeatedly and consistently sitting or standing outside the throne where God sits.
When I say "repeatedly and consistently" I mean more than 10 verses, including the Book of Revelation itself.
There is no way to sit on the right of the throne while being sitting on such throne.

One single verse cannot contradict 12 or 15, and certainly Revelation 3:21 does not contradict them. Revelation 3:21 is speaking of "throne" as government. What's the evidence? Revelation 3:21 itself! Millions are able to sit in the same government of Christ, without being Christ, such as Christ sits in God's government, without being God.

Weasel words. Conflation. Misdirection.

Define a "throne".
 
The Bible presents Jesus repeatedly and consistently sitting or standing outside the throne where God sits.
When I say "repeatedly and consistently" I mean more than 10 verses, including the Book of Revelation itself.
There is no way to sit on the right of the throne while being sitting on such throne.

One single verse cannot contradict 12 or 15, and certainly Revelation 3:21 does not contradict them. Revelation 3:21 is speaking of "throne" as government. What's the evidence? Revelation 3:21 itself! Millions are able to sit in the same government of Christ, without being Christ, such as Christ sits in God's government, without being God.

Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
 
That was in the God's Word translation as I had already showed.

John 1 (God's Word Translation)
14The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.
Where do you get the "it" from???? :unsure:

δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός literally translates to Glory for only child of the Father.

(John 1:14) Καὶ ὁ Λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας.

Your Greek is the pits, man.
 
There is no peace to be found until the Prince of Peace establishes His Eternal Kingdom.
You are already citizen of such Eternal Kingdom. And you are not alone.
So, let's keep building the eternal kingdom in our homes, workplaces, and communities.
Jesus Christ will destroy those that reject Him.
They are already destroyed. They live in hell. They give food to the pigs while they themselves are starving.
I'm happy to know, though, that they are still seen by God as His children. They may have rejected Him, but He still loves them.
The shepherd will go after them, even after the last one, and bring him home happy.

Satan lives in every "false sense of peace".
The false sense of peace is that experienced by people who are not living in love and submission to God's will. Jesus illustrated this by alluding to those in the days of Noah, who were involved in their own short-term pleasures: eating, drinking, having sex.
 
Well, just be aware that the same thing they often think about you.
That's the challenge we must face.
Both sides think that the others are cherry-picking what fits their pre-established theories.
The difference is that I've never disowned the Greek NT, or the Greek OT. Muslims do it all the time. Heretics are all the same.
 
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As long as it disproves Jesus is God then let's go with the Father not being Lord for the sake of argument, though that is simply not the case. While it's true that Jesus is called the one Lord in 1 Cor. 8:6, Jesus is never called the One God throughout all of Scripture, yet the Father is indeed called the One God, the only God, the true God, and even the One Lord in Eph. 4:4-6. Since that's the case, then the common denominator is that Jesus is not God.

The factor you fail to consider is that the Father is indeed called the Lord. Jesus, a man with human hands, referred to the Father as the Lord of heaven and earth in Matthew 11:25:

Matthew 11:25(NIV)​
25At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.​

While in Acts 17:24,25, Paul referred to God as the Lord of heaven and earth and Creator, saying He is not served by human hands:

Acts 17 (NIV)​
24“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else​

Since the post-resurrected Jesus retained his human hands when he stated in Matthew 28:18 "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" then we can conclude that despite Jesus' authority that he was given after his resurrection that Jesus is not God. Jesus is not the creator. Jesus is not the Lord of heaven and earth. That's Sola Scriptura.

Where you are getting lost is that as far as the Lordship of God and Jesus go, there is a hierarchy in the kingdom of heaven. This is fundamental to understand and something that I have observed the Trinitarian school of thought slowly adopting. The Father is God and is the one Lord overall, Jesus is Lord over the church.

Ephesians 4 (NIV)​
4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.​
Well unfortunately for you The Father is also lord so the verse is not actually limiting

And you failed to deal with my evidence Jesus is Jehovah based upon the Shema of Israel and the greek translation and the verse 1 Cor 8:6

1 Corinthians 8:6 (NASB 2020) — 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Jesus is the one lord (heis kyrios)

Heis kyrios are the words greek speaking Hebrews used to denote one YHWH in the shema of Israel

Here it is in the New Testament

Mark 12:29 (KJV 1900) — 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

So the heis kyrios of 1cor 8:6 is the lord our God of Mark 12:29

As noted previously, john 17:3 does not state the father alone is the one true God

In Trinitarianism The Father, son , and the Holy Spirit are all the one true God

So a statement saying the Father is the one true God does not disprove trinitarianism

So you merely beg the question assuming your view only the father can be the one true God

And your interpretation of Eph 4 leaves you stuck with a declaration The father is not Lord

Ephesians 4:5–6 (KJV 1900) — 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

As we have seen Jesus is that one Lord 1Cor 8:6

and the Bible does point to Jesus the word being God

John 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 20:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

and because you prefer modern bibles

Titus 2:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2 Peter 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 SIMON Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

and approve of the NWT

(NWT) Joh 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

and lets not leave off the old testament modern or old translation

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: And the government shall be upon his shoulder: And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

BTW Christ is over all

Romans 9:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Revelation 17:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
 
You are already citizen of such Eternal Kingdom. And you are not alone.
So, let's keep building the eternal kingdom in our homes, workplaces, and communities.

That is why this world in its entirety will all pass away and be dissolved. You find peace and refugee here. I find peace in Jesus Christ alone.

They are already destroyed. They live in hell. They give food to the pigs while they themselves are starving.
I'm happy to know, though, that they are still seen by God as His children. They may have rejected Him, but He still loves them.
The shepherd will go after them, even after the last one, and bring him home happy.

Loving someone doesn't establish a relationship. There is more to a relationship than just love. Love spurned makes the heart sick.........

The false sense of peace is that experienced by people who are not living in love and submission to God's will. Jesus illustrated this by alluding to those in the days of Noah, who were involved in their own short-term pleasures: eating, drinking, having sex.

Like you're not consumed with such yourself. Such is the human existence.

I seek heavens wherein dwells righteousness. Isn't interesting how they all perished in the flood? I mean can't even see judgement in anything.
 
Seeing as you incorrectly believe the pronoun must use the nearest noun as its antecedent then

1 John 5:20 (NASB 2020) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

You must believe Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life
If the Word is the Creator in John 1:2-3 then Jesus is not the True God in 1 John 5:20. Either way you run you lose something. Which direction shall you run sir? Do you want to lose Jesus as the true God or the Word as the Creator?
 
The Bible presents Jesus repeatedly and consistently sitting or standing outside the throne where God sits.
When I say "repeatedly and consistently" I mean more than 10 verses, including the Book of Revelation itself.
There is no way to sit on the right of the throne while being sitting on such throne.

One single verse cannot contradict 12 or 15, and certainly Revelation 3:21 does not contradict them. Revelation 3:21 is speaking of "throne" as government. What's the evidence? Revelation 3:21 itself! Millions are able to sit in the same government of Christ, without being Christ, such as Christ sits in God's government, without being God.
A true belief does not contradict the Bible at all. The fact that your belief contradicts the Bible means that it's back to the drawing board for you.
 
If the Word is the Creator in John 1:2-3 then Jesus is not the True God in 1 John 5:20. Either way you run you lose something. Which direction shall you run sir? Do you want to lose Jesus as the true God or the Word as the Creator?

No contradictions at all.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
 
Where do you get the "it" from???? :unsure:

δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός literally translates to Glory for only child of the Father.

(John 1:14) Καὶ ὁ Λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας.

Your Greek is the pits, man.
yes they are calling God an it not a who.
 
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