The Unitarian belief that Jesus is not God causes those who offer worship to the Father's Throne (where Jesus sits) to be guilty of idolatry.

[synergy]

If the Word is the Creator in John 1:2-3 then Jesus is not the True God in 1 John 5:20. Either way you run you lose something. Which direction shall you run sir? Do you want to lose Jesus as the true God or the Word as the Creator?

The Trinity always works in unison. The Trinity was present at Christ's Baptism. The Trinity was present at Christ's Cross. Etc....

 

[civic]

The Trinity always works in unison. The Trinity was present at Christ's Baptism. The Trinity was present at Christ's Cross. Etc....

and the beginning, creation.

they try and escape the Plural Pronouns for the Plural God of the Bible.

 

[Runningman]

There is no difference. Establish the difference. All you're doing is deflecting.

Lust IS sin. You're okay with ignoring the sin of LUST. Like always, in works, you deny God.

Lusting refers to a desire. The desire being conceived refers to acting on the desire and thus sinning. One can desire without sinning, one can be tempted without sinning, hence being tempted is not a sin in and of itself. Why aren't you reading what the verse says? Jesus was tempted in "ALL WAYS AS WE ARE." Got it? That's Sola Scriptura.

Hebrews 4
15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

James 1
14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

 

[Runningman]

Why should I when I already know the answer? I use Google to find your comments.



I have bible and linguistic software. However, I don't google for my answers. You do.



Name the manuscript. You haven't looked up anything.

@civic @synergy @TomL

Notice the charge of Trinitarians "changing the bible". He is a Muslim.



You have openly tarnished the reputation of Jesus Christ. Claiming I'm "anti-Christ" is silly.

What Quran do you follow?

See you think you already know everything and cannot be helped, taught, or reached with the truth. Why do you have a problem with people who look up Bible verses or use a search engine to look up commentaries? You're probably stepping on the toes of a lot of people here. We all use the Internet.

I have never read much of the Quran.

 

[Runningman]

You may try to claim Christianity but it rather obvious if you claim you are.... then you came to Christianity through Islam. You're obviously one of the various sects of the Arab world that believe Jesus is nothing more than a prophet. There are strange mixes of various theologies that survive where Christianity and Islam collide. Syrian?

So you've seen Christ "face to face"? Where? You must be blessed. I haven't seen the risen Christ except through the "eye of faith".

Christ laid down His life. No man took it from Him. No man could beat Jesus enough to actually kill Him. You would have died in the first beating Jesus received. The power that raised Jesus from the dead was/is Innate to the Son. Notice the words "commandment" in the words you don't understand. Not power.

Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God while I do. What I believe is not compatible with Islam and if I was a true Muslim I would not lie about this since it would be considered blasphemy to them.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Lusting refers to a desire. The desire being conceived refers to acting on the desire and thus sinning. One can desire without sinning, one can be tempted without sinning, hence being tempted is not a sin in and of itself. Why aren't you reading what the verse says? Jesus was tempted in "ALL WAYS AS WE ARE." Got it? That's Sola Scriptura.

Hebrews 4
15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

James 1
14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

It is more than just desire. We can desire good things. There is a Greek word for desire. It is αἰτέω.

Lust itself is sin. Which is why Jesus said that for a man to "lust after a women" is to commit adultery. ἐπιθυμέω.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You don't know Greek much less English.

 

[Runningman]

that's only "ONE" Person. for in the Godhead, "WITH" is the same ONE Person. example, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." two different persons? NO, and here's why, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." the same ONE PERSON who is First and Last, the same ONE PERSON. just as in John 1:1 the Word "WITH" God and was GOD, the same one one person in the ECHAD of the EQUAL SHARE of his OWNSELF. this is just too easy.

101G.

They didn't make up a new language to confuse everyone with in the Bible. They spoke what people could understand and they followed conventional reason and thought. You are using a convoluted and subjective interpretation that only you can see to explain the Bible which speaks to your mental state. Are you promoting diversified oneness or trinitarianism here?

 

[praise_yeshua]

See you think you already know everything and cannot be helped, taught, or reached with the truth.

I don't see where you've helped me at all. We can help one another. I will change. I have changed. I doubt there are very few people here that have changed more than I have in my life. I go where the information leads me.

However, I know more about Trinitarianism than you do. Far more. I can prove it but you will not even discuss the teaching of the Hypostatic Union. I know why. You can't. You don't know it. I do.

Why do you have a problem with people who look up Bible verses or use a search engine to look up commentaries? You're probably stepping on the toes of a lot of people here. We all use the Internet.

Being reminded is one thing. "Making things up as you go" is another. You have no proven defense. You're just "making it up as you go". It shows.

I have never read much of the Quran.

Okay. How does that change what I wrote? I never said anything about how much you read the Quran.

 

[JoshebB]

That's a dodge.

No, the dodge is failing to acknowledge the misuse of scripture.

And I will waste no more time on you until I read an acknowledgment the verses cited do not say what was claimed.

 

[Runningman]

Pathetic you just ignored the text'

John 1:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Who was in the world

Who did the world not receive

Who did John announce

Whose glory was seen

John 1:6–18 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Hello It was not the father

you are living in an alternate universe apart from reality

The context of John 1:10 refers to who was mentioned in John 1:9. Jesus isn't being spoken of about here. Catching on yet? John doesn't believe Jesus is God. John 1:1-14 is a Unitarian proof text passage. You're watching me take it all from you bit by bit, step by step.

 

[Runningman]

First you begin by ignoring my point


Where have you addressed the meaning of πρωτότοκος

Where have you addressed the logic

If all things were created by him, he could not be created for he could not create himself

That's right you didn't

Then you assume what col 1:15 does not say

There is nothing in col 1:15 denying Christ is deity (god)

you are assuming your theology once again

You completely ran away from my post and barely addressed anything while I completely addressed you. I will take that as you losing ground. You can't be lazy in these debates Tom. If this was being livestream, you would have been an embarrassment in front of your entire religion. Come on. Get some energy and address what I said.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Narrow it down to what you're referencing in your comments.

1. A throne as a chair

1. Mark 14:61,62,
2. Acts 2:33,
3. Acts 5:30-31,
4. Romans 8:34
5. Ephesians 1:17-20,
6. Hebrews 8:1
7. Hebrews 10:12
8. Hebrews 12:2
9. 1 Peter 3:21,22,
10. Revelation 4:2 + 5:1

In these texts, God sits in the throne and Jesus sits or stands on the right hand of that throne, as corresponds to a person who is being honored over anyone else by the person sitting on the throne.
The illustration below shows how a person sits on the right hand of somebody on the throne.



2. A throne as a government

Revelation 3:21 “To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."

Since only one person can fit in one chair, and not the million of those who "overcome", the term "throne" in Rev 3:21 is not about a chair, but about a shared government (definition #2), where we rule with Christ as Christ rules with God. By making us sit in his throne, he has "made us kings and priests to His God and Father" (Revelation 1:6) "they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev 20:6)

Therefore, the claim in the OP is unsupported.
The only one sitting at the CHAIR in Revelation 4 is God, The Father of Jesus. Jesus, "The Lamb", is on his right. So, people who worship the One on the Chair in Revelation 4 are worshiping The Father.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God while I do. What I believe is not compatible with Islam and if I was a true Muslim I would not lie about this since it would be considered blasphemy to them.

Not exactly true. There are Muslims that try to live in both worlds. I meet a few of them in my life. I once "converted" a very loyal Muslim that thought I was a his new "leader". I greatly disappointed him with insisting that he find value in following Jesus Christ alone.

This is where I see you at.......

I might be wrong. My senses might be doing doing me a "disservice" at the moment but don't believe I'm entirely wrong. The way you're answer me tells me that I'm not entirely wrong.

Muslims have no problems at all with lying. In fact, they often taught that "lying can be beneficial" to the "cause".

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

A true belief does not contradict the Bible at all.

I agree.
And that's why you can't say that Jesus sits in the throne of God, since that would contradict 10 verses.
What you can say is that Jesus rules with God, as we rule with Jesus. That you can say and everything is now in harmony.

Dear @praise_yeshua and @synergy

If you have any better explanation to harmonize the 10 verses with the 1 verse, please bring your proposal to the Forum.

 

[praise_yeshua]

1. A throne as a chair where only One Person can sit is used in

1. Mark 14:61,62,
2. Acts 2:33,
3. Acts 5:30-31,
4. Romans 8:34
5. Ephesians 1:17-20,
6. Hebrews 8:1
7. Hebrews 10:12
8. Hebrews 12:2
9. 1 Peter 3:21,22,
10. Revelation 4:2 + 5:1

In these texts, God sits in the throne and Jesus sits or stands on the right hand of that throne, as corresponds to a person who is being honored over anyone else by the person sitting on the throne.
The illustration below shows how a person sits on the right hand of somebody on the throne.

View attachment 1001

So you're really going to insist upon a "chair". What value does the "chair" bring? You're making rudimentary mistakes and endlessly conflating.

Care to give one single verse that details a chair associated with God.

2. A throne as a government is used in
Revelation 3:21 “To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."

Since only one person can fit in one chair, and not the million of those who "overcome", the term "throne" in Rev 3:21 is not about a chair, but about a shared government (definition #2), where we rule with Christ as Christ rules with God. By making us sit in his throne, he has "made us kings and priests to His God and Father" (Revelation 1:6) "they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev 20:6)

Therefore, the claim in the OP is unsupported.
The only one sitting at the CHAIR in Revelation 4 is God, The Father of Jesus. Jesus, "The Lamb", is on his right. So, people who worship the One on the Chair in Revelation 4 are worshiping The Father.

Many governmental "thrones" have benches. You're so caught up in your own silliness, that you miss the simplest of things.

By all means, try again.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I agree.
And that's why you can't say that Jesus sits in the throne of God, since that would contradict 10 verses.
What you can say is that Jesus rules with God, as we rule with Jesus. That you can say and everything is now in harmony.

Dear @praise_yeshua and @synergy

If you have any better explanation to harmonize the 10 verses with the 1 verse, please bring your proposal to the Forum.

I already have. Read my last post. You have no idea what you're doing.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Muslims have no problems at all with lying. In fact, they often taught that "lying can be beneficial" to the "cause".

Dear @Runningman

Thousands of Christians, Jews, Muslisms and Baha'is have been murdered through history because of a discourse of prejudice.
All of them have been accused of the most ridiculous immoralities.
There is absolutely no moral difference among any of these, inasmuch as they are committed to a life of submission to the will of God.

I firmly reject the statement posted by @praise_yeshua

 

[praise_yeshua]

Dear @Runningman

Thousands of Christians, Jews, Muslisms and Baha'is have been murdered through history because of a discourse of prejudice.
All of them have been accused of the most ridiculous immoralities.
There is absolutely no moral difference among any of these, inasmuch as they are committed to a life of submission to the will of God.

I firmly reject the statement posted by @praise_yeshua

I told the truth. He knows I did. There are various sects of Islamic beliefs that teach that lying to an enemy is righteous. He considers those that teach Jesus Christ as God to be enemies.

You on the "other hand"..... keep showing your true Unitarian Universalist "colors".

 

[TomL]

You completely ran away from my post and barely addressed anything while I completely addressed you. I will take that as you losing ground. You can't be lazy in these debates Tom. If this was being livestream, you would have been an embarrassment in front of your entire religion. Come on. Get some energy and address what I said.

Funny how you can imagine that

when you did not addresss the term the firstborn

and you did not address the logic that if Christ created all things he could not himself be a creation

and that was the whole of my argument of which you addressed nothing

all you did was change the subject, assuming if he is the exact image of God he could not be God

Begging the question once again assuming the godhead must only be one person

 

[synergy]

1. A throne as a chair

1. Mark 14:61,62,
2. Acts 2:33,
3. Acts 5:30-31,
4. Romans 8:34
5. Ephesians 1:17-20,
6. Hebrews 8:1
7. Hebrews 10:12
8. Hebrews 12:2
9. 1 Peter 3:21,22,
10. Revelation 4:2 + 5:1

In these texts, God sits in the throne and Jesus sits or stands on the right hand of that throne, as corresponds to a person who is being honored over anyone else by the person sitting on the throne.
The illustration below shows how a person sits on the right hand of somebody on the throne.

View attachment 1001

Rev 3:21 says that Jesus sat down with His Father in His Father's Throne.

Is that fellow, to the right of the King, in the King's Throne?

Nope, your example fails.

Side Note: Did you notice that the fellow has three legs?