The Trinity and the Incarnation

[FreeInChrist]

Look unis are told all the time that they have to believe Jesus is God for salvation but yet no scripture claims that so out of approximately 31,102 scripture - I would like ONE scripture that says God is Triune.
I would like ONE scripture that actually says we must believe Jesus is God.
I want ONE scripture that actually says one must believe I that God is three persons YET ONE GOD.
I would like ONE scripture that actually says Jesus is God because if it's that important of a doctrine it should be plainly and clearly taught by SOMEONE.
I would like ONE scripture that calls Jesus God the Son.
I would like ONE scripture that says Jesus is a god-man, or 100%God 100%man.

I'm pretty sure God would have set in his word the way in which humanity should be saved and I believe he did.
Thanks.

So demanding of the Heavenly Father.

Try this on for size.

You wanted one scriptures......

God the Father has sent his Son into the world. You have got to believe in the deity of Jesus.

It says, in Psalm 49:7, that no man can pay a ransom for another man.

And just a few verses later, it says that God will pay the ransom (Psalm 49:15).

So, he couldn’t have used John, or Peter, or Paul to die for us. He (God the Father) had to have the God-man die for us.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Jesus had a beginning - he was conceived in the womb of Mary. He had an end - He died on the cross and was dead, in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights BUT God raised him from the dead giving him eternal life and Jesus became a life- giving spirit.

How did the WORD start. Please give us all the scriptures for His start.

Include, please, what He, The Word did.

Also include what happened to Him.

Here is a clue from the Holy Bible, the Septuagint, and the Interlinear so you know no Trin bible needs be applied not a RCC influenced one.

Question... There is one bible that was never RCC influenced, or considered a Trin bible.

You should research it and read it like many of us have done.

The Ethiopian Bible.

History of the Ethiopian Bible, a unique and ancient scripture with 88 books, untouched by Western canon. Find out why the Ethiopian Bible got banned and removed from the Holy Bible.

When you can get certain parts of it it is worth reading ....

If you want more info.... https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/ethiopian-bible-why-the-ethiopian-bible-got-banned which is an interesting and good read.

 

[amazing grace]

That is hyperliteralism taking over in your thought. You fail to recognize allegory. That makes you deny all of John 1

When it comes to John 1:1, I think it's safer to rely on what is written. If that is hyperliteralism - so be it.

I can recognize and understand figures of speech, such as when scripture says: Then shall all the trees of the forest sing for joy . . . I know that the trees did not literally sing. And this statement: Why does your anger smoke against the sheep of your pasture? .... I know that God's anger didn't literally smoke. There are more than 200 figures used in scripture, I surely do not know them all nor claim to.

That misses the whole text. Jesus does not say "the Father says I have tried to gather you..." Jesus speaks of his own voice. That is the problem of unitarians reading into the text anything to deny who Jesus is.

I said nothing about Jesus saying 'the Father says, etc.'
I know Jesus is speaking in his own voice . . . I asked "Why would he have to be deity to know how long his Father has tried to gather Jerusalem?" Or "Wouldn't Jesus have known that Jerusalem was the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it?" Does having that knowledge require him to be deity?

Christians just follow what John says -- You do not say someone came in the flesh unless he also is something beyond that. John shows he is God. It is hard to deny that despite some people denying that.

Then Christians should follow everything the author of John says NOT base their theology on the first verse of the prologue of John. The Gospel of John is the only one with an explicit and direct purpose statement so I would not take that lightly.

The author of John reiterated the fact that Jesus 'came in the flesh' because of the Gnostics he was dealing with who believed that anything MATERIAL was EVIL - Gnosticism is characterized by a fundamental split between the spiritual (good) and the material (bad).....flesh was material matter and evil. They saw the spirit as good and the body as a prison and that Jesus only appeared to be human. So, in contention with the gnostics, John had to continue to say that Jesus had come in the flesh. Saying or repeating that Jesus came in the flesh doesn't mean that Jesus was something beyond that and if John meant something beyond that ----- he would have plainly acknowledged something so important.

I try to make it easier for you to follow, but you just deny what God can do.

Sorry you find the account of Jesus laughable.

Your sentence from above in red: WHO did God send who is of the same God????
'God was able to send ONE to the earth who also is of the same God. He is Jesus who also is Christ' . . . you are really trying hard not to say 'God came to earth in the flesh' --- it would truly be laughable if it was so sad.

You know good and well that it is not the account of Jesus that I found laughable. It is your attempt to avoid saying 'God came to earth in the flesh.'

It only is confusing when you do not understand John 1. It reflects two in the Godhead.

Where's the third?
Not confusing at all - God is not his own anointed Son.....Jesus is the Lord's Christ, the Lord's Messiah.

Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. And he came in the Spirit into the temple, and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the Law.......for my eyes have seen your salvation; that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to your people Israel.

 

[amazing grace]

So demanding of the Heavenly Father.

Try this on for size.

You wanted one scriptures......

God the Father has sent his Son into the world. You have got to believe in the deity of Jesus.

It says, in Psalm 49:7, that no man can pay a ransom for another man.

And just a few verses later, it says that God will pay the ransom (Psalm 49:15).

So, he couldn’t have used John, or Peter, or Paul to die for us. He (God the Father) had to have the God-man die for us.

Nope you didn't do it . . .
I love it when people desperately try to use this: Psalm 49:7-9 those who trust in their wealth and boast of the abundance of their riches? Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, that he should live on forever and never see the pit.

Don't trust in wealth or abundance of riches for NO man can pay the price for another or give God the price for another because their life is to costly for any amount of wealth or riches that he should live on forever. It's talking about someone paying with wealth and riches to ransom one from the pit.

But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. How does God accomplish that? NOT by John, or Peter, or Paul but by sending his only Son, Jesus Christ, to pay the penalty for my sins and through faith in his Son, Jesus Christ, I too will live forever in the resurrection. It cost God his Son and it cost Jesus his life much more than wealth or riches!

 

[amazing grace]

How did the WORD start. Please give us all the scriptures for His start.

Include, please, what He, The Word did.

Also include what happened to Him.

Jesus? Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary -
The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. (genealogy: genesis - source, origin; a book of one's lineage, i.e. in which his ancestry or progeny are enumerated) Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” [Matt. 1:1, 18-21]

And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. [Luke 1:35]

What Jesus did and what happened to him?
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, [Acts 10:38,39]

Here is a clue from the Holy Bible, the Septuagint, and the Interlinear so you know no Trin bible needs be applied not a RCC influenced one.

Question... There is one bible that was never RCC influenced, or considered a Trin bible.

You should research it and read it like many of us have done.

The Ethiopian Bible.

History of the Ethiopian Bible, a unique and ancient scripture with 88 books, untouched by Western canon. Find out why the Ethiopian Bible got banned and removed from the Holy Bible.

When you can get certain parts of it it is worth reading ....

If you want more info.... https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/ethiopian-bible-why-the-ethiopian-bible-got-banned which is an interesting and good read.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Jesus? Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary -
The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. (genealogy: genesis - source, origin; a book of one's lineage, i.e. in which his ancestry or progeny are enumerated) Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” [Matt. 1:1, 18-21]

And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. [Luke 1:35]

What Jesus did and what happened to him?
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, [Acts 10:38,39]

So it is another lie of John in John 1...

In the beginning was the Word.

and John 1:18

And the Word became flesh.

The Word existed before the oincarnation.

So how much before?

The Word has been said to be the voice of God in Genesis.....

You deny this of course... but if John is a viable source then the Word existed before Jesus was born.

HOW LONG?

 

[charismaticlady]

No, Jesus was not the Angel of the LORD - an actual angel was the Angel of the LORD. Jesus wasn't the 'burning bush' either . . . Jesus is not God. To arrive at that conclusion from what is not WRITTEN is to read into scripture.

No angel allowed themselves to be worshiped. The burning bush spoke that He was God of Abraham and His name was I AM THAT I AM. The same thing Jesus said of Himself. That is what Scripture says CLEARLY.

 

[amazing grace]

No angel allowed themselves to be worshiped. The burning bush spoke that He was God of Abraham and His name was I AM THAT I AM. The same thing Jesus said of Himself. That is what Scripture says CLEARLY.

The BURNING BUSH did not speak . . . it was the Angel of the LORD who spoke out of the bush AS IF HE was God.

That is the Jewish Law of Agency: (Heb. Shaliah): The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself” (Ned. 72B; Kidd, 41b). Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principal, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent.”

God sent his angel to represent him --- to speak on his behalf to Moses. The Angel acted as the agent of God and therefore could speak as God. There are a lot of these instances in the OT.

 

[amazing grace]

So it is another lie of John in John 1...

In the beginning was the Word.

You asked How did the WORD start and I asked you "Jesus?" and responded from that point - giving you all the scriptures for his start.
In the beginning was the Word . . . correct, I never said that John 1 was a lie.
I don't believe that is referring to a person in the OT.
I believe that it was actually the word of God which was in the beginning; that God spoke creation into being ---- or God's wisdom in the beginning.

and John 1:18

Yes ....... No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. Jesus Christ made God aka the Father, known - Jesus declared him.

And the Word became flesh.

Yes ...... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word existed before the oincarnation.

In the beginning God spoke - AND GOD SAID and IT WAS SO.

So how much before?

The Word has been said to be the voice of God in Genesis.....

You deny this of course... but if John is a viable source then the Word existed before Jesus was born.

HOW LONG?

I have no idea what you are talking about. God's word was not a person - it's God's speech, what he said - In the beginning God spoke - AND GOD SAID and IT WAS SO.

HOW LONG WHAT!?

 

[civic]

The BURNING BUSH did not speak . . . it was the Angel of the LORD who spoke out of the bush AS IF HE was God.

That is the Jewish Law of Agency: (Heb. Shaliah): The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself” (Ned. 72B; Kidd, 41b). Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principal, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent.”

God sent his angel to represent him --- to speak on his behalf to Moses. The Angel acted as the agent of God and therefore could speak as God. There are a lot of these instances in the OT.

Angels or messengers cannot be worshiped it’s a violation of Gods commandment and is condemned by God as idolatry.

Next fallacy

 

[FreeInChrist]

You asked How did the WORD start and I asked you "Jesus?" and responded from that point - giving you all the scriptures for his start.
In the beginning was the Word . . . correct, I never said that John 1 was a lie.
I don't believe that is referring to a person in the OT.
I believe that it was actually the word of God which was in the beginning; that God spoke creation into being ---- or God's wisdom in the beginning.

Yes ....... No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. Jesus Christ made God aka the Father, known - Jesus declared him.

Yes ...... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

In the beginning God spoke - AND GOD SAID and IT WAS SO.

I have no idea what you are talking about. God's word was not a person - it's God's speech, what he said - In the beginning God spoke - AND GOD SAID and IT WAS SO.

HOW LONG WHAT!?

It is biblical that the Word was before Jesus' birth. How long before Jesus' birth do you think he was around?

I asked you "How did the WORD start. Please give us all the scriptures for His start. Reply 945 above.

You provided the key sentence starting with "Jesus? Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary -"

IOW you are of the opinion the Word, who became Jesus John 1:14 had his beginning right then?

You say this Word was not a person, yet John disagrees.

John 1:14 NASB95 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So whatever the Word was He became Jesus. That is fact.

Lets set John aside and see how the following plays with The Word as an individual before He became flesh....

Paul (in letters no one disputes) still says the same Son who died on the cross is the One who personally created the universe (Col 1:16, Heb 1:2).He says Christ Jesus already existed ‘in the form of God’ before He was born as a human baby (Phil 2:5–8).Even Jesus Himself, in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, talks as if He was personally sent from the Father’s presence into the world. So the pre-existence of the Son isn’t just a ‘Johannine’ idea—it’s all over the New Testament.”

One thing people, including you, seem to fail to realize is that when it comes to the deity we have God the Father, God the Son who had at one point been the Word until the Angel said to name the baby Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

The deity is seeming not big into given names.... Remember, God even said His name was I am.......

The Word was not called Jesus until he was born. But He existed before that.

That’s a very solid case that doesn’t lean on John 1 at all.

Are you one of those people who reject the pre-existence of the Son and have dismissed Paul, Hebrews, and Jesus’ own words in the Synoptics too .....?

 

[FreeInChrist]

You asked How did the WORD start and I asked you "Jesus?" and responded from that point - giving you all the scriptures for his start.
In the beginning was the Word . . . correct, I never said that John 1 was a lie.
I don't believe that is referring to a person in the OT.
I believe that it was actually the word of God which was in the beginning; that God spoke creation into being ---- or God's wisdom in the beginning.

Yes ....... No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. Jesus Christ made God aka the Father, known - Jesus declared him.

Yes ...... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

In the beginning God spoke - AND GOD SAID and IT WAS SO.

I have no idea what you are talking about. God's word was not a person - it's God's speech, what he said - In the beginning God spoke - AND GOD SAID and IT WAS SO.

HOW LONG WHAT!?

Let's try it this way.

What was the Word doing while waiting for Mary to be made pregnant?

 

[civic]

Are you one of those people who reject the pre-existence of the Son and have dismissed Paul, Hebrews, and Jesus’ own words in the Synoptics too .....?

every uni rejects His preexistence as God.

 

[civic]

Let's try it this way.

What was the Word doing while waiting for Mary to be made pregnant?

holding the universe together like He did after becoming man.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

 

[amazing grace]

Angels or messengers cannot be worshiped it’s a violation of Gods commandment and is condemned by God as idolatry.

Next fallacy

Who said anything about angels or messengers being worshiped?

Moses was instructed to remove his sandals because the place where he was standing was holy ground.

 

[amazing grace]

It is biblical that the Word was before Jesus' birth. How long before Jesus' birth do you think he was around?

The word is an inanimate object and yes, it was there in the beginning when God spoke creation into being.
Nine months - the gestation period for a human being.

I asked you "How did the WORD start. Please give us all the scriptures for His start. Reply 945 above.

You provided the key sentence starting with "Jesus? Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary -"

IOW you are of the opinion the Word, who became Jesus John 1:14 had his beginning right then?
You say this Word was not a person, yet John disagrees.

Jesus had his beginning at conception being conceived by the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High.

John 1:14 NASB95 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So whatever the Word was He became Jesus. That is fact.

I have already agreed . . . Yes.....And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. Haven't I already addressed all of this???

Lets set John aside and see how the following plays with The Word as an individual before He became flesh....

Paul (in letters no one disputes) still says the same Son who died on the cross is the One who personally created the universe (Col 1:16, Heb 1:2).

Nope, that's not what that says - Paul would never contradict scripture:

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

He says Christ Jesus already existed ‘in the form of God’ before He was born as a human baby (Phil 2:5–8).Even Jesus Himself, in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, talks as if He was personally sent from the Father’s presence into the world. So the pre-existence of the Son isn’t just a ‘Johannine’ idea—it’s all over the New Testament.”

Jesus did not exist before his birth. How did Jesus come from God? How was Jesus sent from the Father? How did Jesus come into the world? Matthew and Luke tell us exactly HOW.

One thing people, including you, seem to fail to realize is that when it comes to the deity we have God the Father, God the Son who had at one point been the Word until the Angel said to name the baby Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
The deity is seeming not big into given names.... Remember, God even said His name was I am.......

The Word was not called Jesus until he was born. But He existed before that.

That’s a very solid case that doesn’t lean on John 1 at all.

Are you one of those people who reject the pre-existence of the Son and have dismissed Paul, Hebrews, and Jesus’ own words in the Synoptics too .....?

There is no God the Son . . . Yep, I'm one of those people who doesn't believe Jesus preexisted.
What was he in his preexistent state? What was he doing?

I believe scripture:

Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. [Hebrews 2:17]

None of us preexisted our birth. We might have existed in the mind of our parents who were planning out their family but we did not literally exist. In the same manner, Jesus preexisted in the foreknowledge of God.

He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you [1 Peter 1:20]

 

[FreeInChrist]

The word is an inanimate object and yes, it was there in the beginning when God spoke creation into being.

In Genesis 1, the repeated phrase is "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light" (and similarly for each day of creation). The question "Who did the speaking?" comes from connecting this to the New Testament prologue of John:

"In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. … And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us…" (John 1:1–3, 14)

So, from a Christian theological perspective (especially in Trinitarian theology), the answer is yes—the divine "Word" (the second Person of the Trinity, the eternal Son of God, who later became incarnate as Jesus) is the one through whom the Father spoke creation into existence.

Here are some key supporting points in Scripture and classic theology:

Genesis 1 constantly says "God said" (וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים / vayomer Elohim). Jewish and Christian interpreters both noticed that creation happens by God's speech.

John 1 explicitly identifies "the Word" as the agent of creation: "All things were made through him" (πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο).

Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 1:2 reinforce that the Son is the one "through whom" God made the universe. (That would be
Jesus.)

Hebrews 11:3 says, "By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God (ῥήματι θεοῦ)" .... linking God's spoken word directly to creation.

Early Church Fathers (e.g., Athanasius, Augustine, Basil the Great) routinely taught that when Genesis says "God said," it is the Father speaking by or through His Word (the Son), with the Spirit active as well (e.g., "the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters," Gen 1:2).

A memorable quote from Athanasius (On the Incarnation, §3):

"For the Father creates and governs all things through His Word."

So, in short~ The voice that spoke in Genesis 1 is the voice of God the Father, but He utters that creative speech through His eternal Word (the Logos, the pre-incarnate Christ). Therefore, "the Word" is the one doing the speaking by which all things were made.

And this is all I am going to say because until you grasp the significance of these truths
any other reply to anything below is taken care of with the knowledge that the Word spoke for God and all else is moot.

Nine months - the gestation period for a human being.

Jesus had his beginning at conception being conceived by the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High.

I have already agreed . . . Yes.....And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. Haven't I already addressed all of this???

Nope, that's not what that says - Paul would never contradict scripture:

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Jesus did not exist before his birth. How did Jesus come from God? How was Jesus sent from the Father? How did Jesus come into the world? Matthew and Luke tell us exactly HOW.

There is no God the Son . . . Yep, I'm one of those people who doesn't believe Jesus preexisted.
What was he in his preexistent state? What was he doing?

I believe scripture:

Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. [Hebrews 2:17]

None of us preexisted our birth. We might have existed in the mind of our parents who were planning out their family but we did not literally exist. In the same manner, Jesus preexisted in the foreknowledge of God.

He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you [1 Peter 1:20]

 

[civic]

Who said anything about angels or messengers being worshiped?

Moses was instructed to remove his sandals because the place where he was standing was holy ground.

The angel of the Lord was worshipped by several of Gods chosen in the OT.

Gideon refers to the Messenger of YHWH as adoni.
Since the Messenger of YHWH is YHWH demonstrates Gideon was referring to YHWH as adoni.

Judges 6:11-23
11 The Messenger of the Lord came and sat under the oak tree in Ophrah that belonged to Joash from Abiezer’s family. Joash’s son Gideon was beating out wheat in a winepress to hide it from the Midianites.
12 The Messenger of the Lord appeared to Gideon and said, “The Lord is with you, brave man.”
13 Gideon responded, “Excuse me, sir! But if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all the miracles our ancestors have told us about? Didn’t they say, ‘The Lord brought us out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and has handed us over to Midian.”
14 The Lord turned to him and said, “You will rescue Israel from Midian with the strength you have. I am sending you.”
15 Gideon said to him, “Excuse me, sir! How can I rescue Israel? Look at my whole family. It’s the weakest one in Manasseh. And me? I’m the least important member of my family.”
16 The Lord replied, “I will be with you. You will defeat Midian as if it were only one man.”
17 Gideon said to him, “If you find me acceptable, give me a sign that it is really you speaking to me.
18 Don’t leave until I come back. I want to bring my gift and set it in front of you.”
“I will stay until you come back,” he said.
19 Then Gideon went into his house and prepared a young goat and unleavened bread made with 18 quarts of flour. He put the meat in a basket and the broth in a pot. Then he went out and presented them to the Messenger of the Lord under the oak tree.
20 The Messenger of the Lord told him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, put them on this rock, and pour the broth over them.” Gideon did so.
21 Then the Messenger of the Lord touched the meat and the bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared up from the rock and burned the meat and the bread. Then the Messenger of the Lord disappeared.
22 That’s when Gideon realized that this had been the Messenger of the Lord. So he said, “Lord God! I have seen the Messenger of the Lord face to face.”
23 The Lord said to him, “Calm down! Don’t be afraid. You will not die.” (GW)



Verse 12 - The Messenger of YHWH appears unto Gideon.
Verse 14 - The Messenger is described as the Lord (YHWH) which spoke unto Gideon.
Verse 17, 18 - Gideon asks "Him" (the Messenger of YHWH) not to depart.
Verse 18 - The Messenger of YHWH says He will wait until Gideon returns.
Verse 19 - Gideon brings out the food unto the Messenger of YHWH under the oak tree. This is where the Messenger of YHWH was originally (verse 11).
Verses 20-22 - Describes what the Messenger of YHWH did to Gideons' offer.

Notice also in verse 22 that Gideon realized that the Messenger to whom he referred to as "sir" (adoni) in Judges 6:13 was in fact YHWH! By seeing the Messenger (YHWH) face to face Gideon was in fear that he would die (cf. Exodus 33:20). This is why in the very next verse (23) YHWH assures Gideon that he will not die even though Gideon saw YHWH face to face.

The Angel of the Lord in the OT was the pre incarnate Son which is why He is identified as YHWH and worshiped as God unlike the created angels who are not worshiped.

Gen 22:11-14
But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"

"Here I am," he replied.

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided."


Exodus 3:2, 5

And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed…And he said, Draw not nigh thither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”


Well the main function or a general definition of a "shaliach" is as follows:

A shaliaḥ (שָלִיחַ; pl. שְלִיחִים, sheliḥim) in Halakha is a Jewish legal or agent. Accordingly, a shaliaḥ performs an act of legal significance for the benefit of the sender, as opposed to him or herself.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach


A Chabad shliach (שליח, pl. שליחים/שלוחים, shlichim/shluchim) is a Chabad member sent out to promulgate Judaism and Chasidut around the world. Chabad shluchim today number about 4,000 worldwide, and can be found in many of even the most remote worldly locales.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach_(Chabad)

Now, I am bringing this up for a very good reason and I want to cut to the chase of my point in this little exercise. The basic job of a "shaliach or the definition is an agent sent on a specfic mission to represent the interst of someon else. In short there are restrictions to the function of a shaliach and I will give you the best example.

Now, you have at Genesis 16:7 the very first appearance of the angel of the Lord. If you read the context from verse 7 to Genesis 17:1-2 you will discover that the Lord God Almighty is the speaker even though the the angel of the Lord is actually speaking. At verse 10 the angel of the Lord says that He will greatly multiply the descendents of Hagar. Then at Genesis 17:1 and 2 it's the Lord God Almighty who will multiply his descendents. You cannot get away from the fact that the same being is taking in the passages. Even at Genesis 16:13 Hagar says I have see the Lord God and am still alive.

Now, lets jump to Genesis 22 where God is going to test Abraham. You have the Lord God Almighty speaking from Genesis 22:1-10. There is no question about this fact. At verse 11 it states, "But the angel of the Lord called to him (Abraham) from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." Then at verse 15 the angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time." (Note: why does the angel of the Lord have to call out for God Himself a second time from heaven?) Is not the Lord God Himself capable of calling out from heaven Himself. I mean He did call out from heaven at Mark 1:11. He did not need the so-called shaliah then.

After the angel of the Lord calls out from heaven the second time which is Genesis 22:15 here is what this so-called shaliach/emissary says, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld you son, you only son. Indeed, I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore etc."

So you see from following the sequence of events a shaliach is limited or he can only do so much on behalf of the sender. He cannot swear an oath for the sender as you see the scriptures say. He cannot multiply the seed of anyone as you see the scriptures say.

Not only that but the real kicker of all of this is found in the NT at Hebrews 6:13. The writer of the Hebrews states, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, VS14, SAYING, "I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU , AND I WILL MULTIPLY YOU." This text is referring back to Genesis 22 and Abraham. A shaliach cannot swear an oath on behalf of the sender and it even says God swore by Himself. In short, the shaliach argument will not work and I maintain that the messenger of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ

hope this helps !!!

 

[amazing grace]

In Genesis 1, the repeated phrase is "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light" (and similarly for each day of creation). The question "Who did the speaking?" comes from connecting this to the New Testament prologue of John:

Who did the speaking? God did the speaking . . . God spoke his word.

So, from a Christian theological perspective (especially in Trinitarian theology), the answer is yes—the divine "Word" (the second Person of the Trinity, the eternal Son of God, who later became incarnate as Jesus) is the one through whom the Father spoke creation into existence.

From this Christian's theological perspective . . . God spoke HIS word - God created by His SPOKEN word.
There is no Trinity and therefore no second person of the Trinity - No Triune God and thus no second person of the Triune God.

Here are some key supporting points in Scripture and classic theology:

Genesis 1 constantly says "God said" (וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים / vayomer Elohim). Jewish and Christian interpreters both noticed that creation happens by God's speech.

John 1 explicitly identifies "the Word" as the agent of creation: "All things were made through him" (πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο).

Yep, Genesis 1 repeatedly says God said.....And God said and it was so. Yes, creation happens by God's speech, God's word.
All things were made through 'him' or all things were made through the word, i.e. God's speech, God's word.
"HIM" is a personification of God's word the same as "SHE" is a personification of God's wisdom.

Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 1:2 reinforce that the Son is the one "through whom" God made the universe. (That would be
Jesus.)

Hebrews 11:3 says, "By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God (ῥήματι θεοῦ)" .... linking God's spoken word directly to creation.

Early Church Fathers (e.g., Athanasius, Augustine, Basil the Great) routinely taught that when Genesis says "God said," it is the Father speaking by or through His Word (the Son), with the Spirit active as well (e.g., "the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters," Gen 1:2).

A memorable quote from Athanasius (On the Incarnation, §3):

So, in short~ The voice that spoke in Genesis 1 is the voice of God the Father, but He utters that creative speech through His eternal Word (the Logos, the pre-incarnate Christ). Therefore, "the Word" is the one doing the speaking by which all things were made.

And this is all I am going to say because until you grasp the significance of these truths
any other reply to anything below is taken care of with the knowledge that the Word spoke for God and all else is moot.

I don't need a grasp on what YOU are saying is the TRUTH. I already knew that it was God doing the speaking in Genesis creation - that God created through his speech, i.e. his word and his word was/is not a person.

There is no God the Son . . . Yep, I'm one of those people who doesn't believe Jesus preexisted.
What was he in his preexistent state? What was he doing?

I really would like an answer to the above questions. It seems I can never get my questions answered from any of you guys.

 

[amazing grace]

The angel of the Lord was worshipped by several of Gods chosen in the OT.

Gideon refers to the Messenger of YHWH as adoni.
Since the Messenger of YHWH is YHWH demonstrates Gideon was referring to YHWH as adoni.

Judges 6:11-23
11 The Messenger of the Lord came and sat under the oak tree in Ophrah that belonged to Joash from Abiezer’s family. Joash’s son Gideon was beating out wheat in a winepress to hide it from the Midianites.
12 The Messenger of the Lord appeared to Gideon and said, “The Lord is with you, brave man.”
13 Gideon responded, “Excuse me, sir! But if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all the miracles our ancestors have told us about? Didn’t they say, ‘The Lord brought us out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and has handed us over to Midian.”
14 The Lord turned to him and said, “You will rescue Israel from Midian with the strength you have. I am sending you.”
15 Gideon said to him, “Excuse me, sir! How can I rescue Israel? Look at my whole family. It’s the weakest one in Manasseh. And me? I’m the least important member of my family.”
16 The Lord replied, “I will be with you. You will defeat Midian as if it were only one man.”
17 Gideon said to him, “If you find me acceptable, give me a sign that it is really you speaking to me.
18 Don’t leave until I come back. I want to bring my gift and set it in front of you.”
“I will stay until you come back,” he said.
19 Then Gideon went into his house and prepared a young goat and unleavened bread made with 18 quarts of flour. He put the meat in a basket and the broth in a pot. Then he went out and presented them to the Messenger of the Lord under the oak tree.
20 The Messenger of the Lord told him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, put them on this rock, and pour the broth over them.” Gideon did so.
21 Then the Messenger of the Lord touched the meat and the bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared up from the rock and burned the meat and the bread. Then the Messenger of the Lord disappeared.
22 That’s when Gideon realized that this had been the Messenger of the Lord. So he said, “Lord God! I have seen the Messenger of the Lord face to face.”
23 The Lord said to him, “Calm down! Don’t be afraid. You will not die.” (GW) Verse 12 - The Messenger of YHWH appears unto Gideon.

The angel of the LORD - God's agent (sent by God to Gideon)

Verse 14 - The Messenger is described as the Lord (YHWH) which spoke unto Gideon.

The LORD turned toward him, i.e. the angel of the LORD turned toward him - the LORD in the person of his agent turned toward Gideon. (the Jewish Law of Agency - shaliah “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself”)
The angel of the LORD is there on the LORD'S behalf working and acting in God's stead.

Verse 17, 18 - Gideon asks "Him" (the Messenger of YHWH) not to depart.
Verse 18 - The Messenger of YHWH says He will wait until Gideon returns.
Verse 19 - Gideon brings out the food unto the Messenger of YHWH under the oak tree. This is where the Messenger of YHWH was originally (verse 11).
Verses 20-22 - Describes what the Messenger of YHWH did to Gideons' offer.

Notice also in verse 22 that Gideon realized that the Messenger to whom he referred to as "sir" (adoni) in Judges 6:13 was in fact YHWH! By seeing the Messenger (YHWH) face to face Gideon was in fear that he would die (cf. Exodus 33:20). This is why in the very next verse (23) YHWH assures Gideon that he will not die even though Gideon saw YHWH face to face.

Gideon says he had seen the Angel of the LORD face to face - NOT YHWH - Then Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the Lord. And Gideon said, “Alas, O Lord God! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.”

He had seen him this whole time and was not dead - Remember this was not God himself but the Angel of the LORD.