The Trinity and the Incarnation

[civic]

Thomas said it. Why didn't Jesus correct him? The apostles knew He was God. How could He take away our sin and create in us a new nature if He wasn't God? Jesus is the creator of this earth, sun and moon and everything else that exists. And you keep saying He isn't God.

Many people believe in order to be saved we must believe that Jesus is God. I don't as I know I was saved before I received the Spirit filled truth, a rhema, that Jesus was and is God in the flesh.

Amen sister preach it

 

[Runningman]

I cannot find one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. A teaching... a whole paragraph or chapter. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. Trinitarians piece together statements that are scattered all over the Bible. They basically use bits and pieces of words and half verses along with their own human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions as they pick one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here, and a clue there, and then they construct their "own God" which is the product of their own human thinking. This is why they cannot present one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Such an important subject matter like the Trinity and the Bible is silent on all of it.

True, trinitarianism is not demonstrated to have been practiced or something that people believed in in Scripture. It's not Biblical Christianity and it's a dangerous heresy.

 

[Peterlag]

Thomas said it. Why didn't Jesus correct him? The apostles knew He was God. How could He take away our sin and create in us a new nature if He wasn't God? Jesus is the creator of this earth, sun and moon and everything else that exists. And you keep saying He isn't God.

Many people believe in order to be saved we must believe that Jesus is God. I don't as I know I was saved before I received the Spirit filled truth, a rhema, that Jesus was and is God in the flesh.

John 20:28 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. “My Lord and my God” can easily be understood that Thomas had realized the power of God working in Jesus, and in saying “my Lord and my God” he was pointing out that Jesus did reveal God in a unique and powerful way. In seeing the resurrected Jesus, Thomas clearly saw both the Lord Jesus, and the God who raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus always taught that he only did what God guided him to do, and said that if you had seen him you had seen the Father. In that light, there is good evidence that “doubting Thomas” was saying that in seeing Jesus he was also seeing the Father.

We have to remember that Thomas’ statement occurred in a moment of surprise and even perhaps shock. Only eight days earlier, Thomas had vehemently denied Jesus’ resurrection. Thomas could no longer deny that Jesus was alive and that God had raised him from the dead. Thomas, looking at the living Jesus, saw both Jesus and the God who raised him from the dead. When Thomas saw the resurrected Christ, he became immediately convinced that Jesus was raised from the dead. But did he suddenly have a revelation that Jesus was God? That would be totally outside of Thomas’ knowledge and belief. Jesus had never claimed to be God despite Trinitarian claims that he had.

In other places in the Bible where the apostles speak about the resurrection of Jesus, they do not declare “This proves Jesus is God!” Rather, they declare that God raised the Lord Jesus from the dead. The confession of the two disciples walking along the road to Emmaus demonstrated the thoughts of Jesus’ followers at the time. Speaking to the resurrected Christ, whom they mistook as just a traveler, they talked about Jesus. They said Jesus “was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and they crucified him." The disciples thought Jesus was the Messiah, a “Prophet” and the Son of God, but not God Himself.

Are we to believe that somehow Jesus taught the Trinity, something that went against everything the disciples were taught and believed, but there is no mention of Jesus ever teaching it anywhere, and yet the disciples somehow got that teaching? That seems too incredible to believe. There is no evidence from the gospel accounts that Jesus’ disciples believed him to be God, and Thomas upon seeing the resurrected Christ was not birthing a new theology in a moment of surprise.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

 

[Runningman]

John 20:28 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. “My Lord and my God” can easily be understood that Thomas had realized the power of God working in Jesus, and in saying “my Lord and my God” he was pointing out that Jesus did reveal God in a unique and powerful way. In seeing the resurrected Jesus, Thomas clearly saw both the Lord Jesus, and the God who raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus always taught that he only did what God guided him to do, and said that if you had seen him you had seen the Father. In that light, there is good evidence that “doubting Thomas” was saying that in seeing Jesus he was also seeing the Father.

We have to remember that Thomas’ statement occurred in a moment of surprise and even perhaps shock. Only eight days earlier, Thomas had vehemently denied Jesus’ resurrection. Thomas could no longer deny that Jesus was alive and that God had raised him from the dead. Thomas, looking at the living Jesus, saw both Jesus and the God who raised him from the dead. When Thomas saw the resurrected Christ, he became immediately convinced that Jesus was raised from the dead. But did he suddenly have a revelation that Jesus was God? That would be totally outside of Thomas’ knowledge and belief. Jesus had never claimed to be God despite Trinitarian claims that he had.

In other places in the Bible where the apostles speak about the resurrection of Jesus, they do not declare “This proves Jesus is God!” Rather, they declare that God raised the Lord Jesus from the dead. The confession of the two disciples walking along the road to Emmaus demonstrated the thoughts of Jesus’ followers at the time. Speaking to the resurrected Christ, whom they mistook as just a traveler, they talked about Jesus. They said Jesus “was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and they crucified him." The disciples thought Jesus was the Messiah, a “Prophet” and the Son of God, but not God Himself.

Are we to believe that somehow Jesus taught the Trinity, something that went against everything the disciples were taught and believed, but there is no mention of Jesus ever teaching it anywhere, and yet the disciples somehow got that teaching? That seems too incredible to believe. There is no evidence from the gospel accounts that Jesus’ disciples believed him to be God, and Thomas upon seeing the resurrected Christ was not birthing a new theology in a moment of surprise.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

Right. They are simply repeating the same talking points that all of their apologetics books say. That's why I say they have a playbook, because they do. It's confined to a handful of the same shallow talking points and you've already seen them all. John 20:28 is one of them and they typically temporarily pretend like the rest of the gospels didn't exist. The only God Jesus ever mentioned is the Father. He did it so much it's not even funny.

 

[charismaticlady]

John 20:28 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. “My Lord and my God” can easily be understood that Thomas had realized the power of God working in Jesus, and in saying “my Lord and my God” he was pointing out that Jesus did reveal God in a unique and powerful way. In seeing the resurrected Jesus, Thomas clearly saw both the Lord Jesus, and the God who raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus always taught that he only did what God guided him to do, and said that if you had seen him you had seen the Father. In that light, there is good evidence that “doubting Thomas” was saying that in seeing Jesus he was also seeing the Father.

We have to remember that Thomas’ statement occurred in a moment of surprise and even perhaps shock. Only eight days earlier, Thomas had vehemently denied Jesus’ resurrection. Thomas could no longer deny that Jesus was alive and that God had raised him from the dead. Thomas, looking at the living Jesus, saw both Jesus and the God who raised him from the dead. When Thomas saw the resurrected Christ, he became immediately convinced that Jesus was raised from the dead. But did he suddenly have a revelation that Jesus was God? That would be totally outside of Thomas’ knowledge and belief. Jesus had never claimed to be God despite Trinitarian claims that he had.

In other places in the Bible where the apostles speak about the resurrection of Jesus, they do not declare “This proves Jesus is God!” Rather, they declare that God raised the Lord Jesus from the dead. The confession of the two disciples walking along the road to Emmaus demonstrated the thoughts of Jesus’ followers at the time. Speaking to the resurrected Christ, whom they mistook as just a traveler, they talked about Jesus. They said Jesus “was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and they crucified him." The disciples thought Jesus was the Messiah, a “Prophet” and the Son of God, but not God Himself.

Are we to believe that somehow Jesus taught the Trinity, something that went against everything the disciples were taught and believed, but there is no mention of Jesus ever teaching it anywhere, and yet the disciples somehow got that teaching? That seems too incredible to believe. There is no evidence from the gospel accounts that Jesus’ disciples believed him to be God, and Thomas upon seeing the resurrected Christ was not birthing a new theology in a moment of surprise.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

Seeing as God is Jesus' father, do you believe that is in the sense that God created Jesus first before anything else? Because if Jesus has no beginning nor ending, that makes Him God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Right. They are simply repeating the same talking points that all of their apologetics books say. That's why I say they have a playbook, because they do. It's confined to a handful of the same shallow talking points and you've already seen them all. John 20:28 is one of them and they typically temporarily pretend like the rest of the gospels didn't exist. The only God Jesus ever mentioned is the Father. He did it so much it's not even funny.

You're repeating the same talking points all your apologetic books say. You have a playbook.

How are you doing with these "commandments" that Jesus said were His?

Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

 

[Runningman]

You're repeating the same talking points all your apologetic books say. You have a playbook.

How are you doing with these "commandments" that Jesus said were His?

Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

The Bible is my playbook. Anytime God is called a singular He, Him, His, You, or I and described as being alone the true God I know my beliefs are affirmed and accurate.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The Bible is my playbook. Anytime God is called a singular He, Him, His, You, or I and described as being alone the true God I know my beliefs are affirmed and accurate.

I'll ask AGAIN.

How are you doing with these "commandments" that Jesus said were His?

Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to hi

 

[Runningman]

I'll ask AGAIN.

How are you doing with these "commandments" that Jesus said were His?

Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to hi

Great, not revealed as God. As you know, Jesus is not God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Great, not revealed as God. As you know, Jesus is not God.

How are you loving Jesus as yourself?

 

[FreeInChrist]

How trinitarians teach the Trinity...

I say...
If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it?

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

THERE IS NO BIBLLE!

 

[praise_yeshua]

The Bible is my playbook. Anytime God is called a singular He, Him, His, You, or I and described as being alone the true God I know my beliefs are affirmed and accurate.

We teach that Jesus is Jesus alone. The Father isn't Jesus. Jesus isn't the Father.

Keep up.

God doesn't have your limitations.

 

[Runningman]

How are you loving Jesus as yourself?

Do you love God more than Jesus? Scripture says you need to.

 

[Runningman]

We teach that Jesus is Jesus alone. The Father isn't Jesus. Jesus isn't the Father.

Keep up.

God doesn't have your limitations.

Then Jesus isn't God. Case closed,.

 

[Peterlag]

One would think a verse like Matthew or Timothy would be able to be understood for anyone who can read.

Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[Runningman]

One would think a verse like Matthew or Timothy would be able to be understood for anyone who can read.

Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It looks like it means that Jesus is not God, but rather the Son of God and that he isn't the God he mediates for.

 

[mikesw]

One would think a verse like Matthew or Timothy would be able to be understood for anyone who can read.

Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

It is surprising that people fail to realize that Peter realized Jesus having the essence of God in being God's Son.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Did you expect Jesus to fail in his incarnation to mediate between humanity and God? People sometimes miss the obvious, as you have noted.

 

[Peterlag]

"The doctrine of the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine... it's the product of theological reflection." - The Christian Doctrine of God Trinitarian. E. Brunner, 1949, p. 236.

“Trinity is not a biblical doctrine" - New Bible Dictionary, J. Douglas, F. Bruce, 1982, p. 1298.

“Scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the Trinity as such in either the Old or the New Testament” - The Harper Collins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, 1995, p. 564.

“The Bible has no statements or speculations concerning a trinitary deity." - Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 12, p. 383, 1979.

“Three coequal partners in the Godhead cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the Bible. It's important to avoid reading the Trinity into places where it does not appear." - Oxford Companion to the Bible, Bruce Metzger, M. Coogan, p. 782-3.

“The doctrine of the Trinity is not present in biblical thought... it goes beyond, and even distorts, what the Bible says about God.” - A Contemporary Interpretation of the Trinity - God in Three Persons: Professor M. Erickson, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, p. 12, 20.

“The belief (in a Trinity-God) was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief." - Dictionary of the Bible, 1995, (trinitarian) J. Mckenzie, p. 899.

“The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated in the post-biblical period." - Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 1985.

“In the New Testament there is no direct suggestion of a doctrine of the Trinity." - An Encyclopedia of Religion, V. Ferm (ed.), 1945, p. 344.

“No passage of Scripture discusses the threeness of God." - The New International Version. Disciples Study Bible, p. 173, note for Mt. 3:16.

“The Bible does not state that there is one God who exists in three persons” - Basic Theology, Professor C. Ryrie, p. 89.

“The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity” - Christian Doctrine, Professor S. Guthrie, Columbia Theological Seminary, 1994, p. 92.

“The doctrine of the Trinity cannot be justified on the basis of Scripture. Indeed it's hard to imagine Jesus speaking in such terms" - An Outline of Biblical Theology, Professor M. Burrows, Yale Divinity School, p. 81.

“The doctrine of God as existing in three persons and one substance is not demonstrable by scriptural proofs." - Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, 1898.

“There is in the Old Testament no indication of interior distinctions in the Godhead. And there is no doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testament” - The Known Bible and its Defense, Reverend M. Hembre, 1933, p. 25.

 

[mikesw]

"The doctrine of the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine... it's the product of theological reflection." - The Christian Doctrine of God Trinitarian. E. Brunner, 1949, p. 236.

“Trinity is not a biblical doctrine" - New Bible Dictionary, J. Douglas, F. Bruce, 1982, p. 1298.

“Scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the Trinity as such in either the Old or the New Testament” - The Harper Collins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, 1995, p. 564.

“The Bible has no statements or speculations concerning a trinitary deity." - Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 12, p. 383, 1979.

“Three coequal partners in the Godhead cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the Bible. It's important to avoid reading the Trinity into places where it does not appear." - Oxford Companion to the Bible, Bruce Metzger, M. Coogan, p. 782-3.

“The doctrine of the Trinity is not present in biblical thought... it goes beyond, and even distorts, what the Bible says about God.” - A Contemporary Interpretation of the Trinity - God in Three Persons: Professor M. Erickson, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, p. 12, 20.

“The belief (in a Trinity-God) was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief." - Dictionary of the Bible, 1995, (trinitarian) J. Mckenzie, p. 899.

“The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated in the post-biblical period." - Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 1985.

“In the New Testament there is no direct suggestion of a doctrine of the Trinity." - An Encyclopedia of Religion, V. Ferm (ed.), 1945, p. 344.

“No passage of Scripture discusses the threeness of God." - The New International Version. Disciples Study Bible, p. 173, note for Mt. 3:16.

“The Bible does not state that there is one God who exists in three persons” - Basic Theology, Professor C. Ryrie, p. 89.

“The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity” - Christian Doctrine, Professor S. Guthrie, Columbia Theological Seminary, 1994, p. 92.

“The doctrine of the Trinity cannot be justified on the basis of Scripture. Indeed it's hard to imagine Jesus speaking in such terms" - An Outline of Biblical Theology, Professor M. Burrows, Yale Divinity School, p. 81.

“The doctrine of God as existing in three persons and one substance is not demonstrable by scriptural proofs." - Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, 1898.

“There is in the Old Testament no indication of interior distinctions in the Godhead. And there is no doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testament” - The Known Bible and its Defense, Reverend M. Hembre, 1933, p. 25.

If you do not want to talk about details of the Trinity, just stick with the recognition of the deity of Christ shown in John 1 and the pre-existence reflected in John 17:5. Those points obliterate the unitarian position without have to mention how the deity of Christ actually avoids suggesting there are multiple gods. Just leave that for the theologians.

 

[360watt]

On behalf of the Father, or by the Fathers hand, or begotten of the Father..

Doesn't make Jesus a lesser being.

Jesus performed miracles with equal power and authority.

The head governing the body..does not make the head superior.

Jesus being subject to the Father doesn't mean inferior.

The human fathers son is not a lesser being.

A president is not a superior being to a regular citizen.