The Trinity and the Incarnation

[mikesw]

Which verse in Matthew 13 shows Jesus as God?

Your persistence is noted.

 

[Peterlag]

Your persistence is noted.

Dear @Runningman

A guy wrote the following on 839
Matt 13:14-15 makes sense here:
Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“ ‘ “You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
The Holy Bible: ESV Crossway Bibles, 2016, Mt 13:14–15.

I wrote on page 840
Which verse in Matthew 13 shows Jesus as God?

He wrote on page 841
Your persistence is noted.

Did he answer my question?

 

[mikesw]

Dear @Runningman

A guy wrote the following on 839
Matt 13:14-15 makes sense here:
Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“ ‘ “You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
The Holy Bible: ESV Crossway Bibles, 2016, Mt 13:14–15.

I wrote on page 840
Which verse in Matthew 13 shows Jesus as God?

He wrote on page 841
Your persistence is noted.

Did he answer my question?

Is there any question that really needs an answer after all the discussion we have had?

 

[Runningman]

Dear @Runningman

A guy wrote the following on 839
Matt 13:14-15 makes sense here:
Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“ ‘ “You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
The Holy Bible: ESV Crossway Bibles, 2016, Mt 13:14–15.

I wrote on page 840
Which verse in Matthew 13 shows Jesus as God?

He wrote on page 841
Your persistence is noted.

Did he answer my question?

No he didn't answer your question. He made a comment about your zeal for truth. I took it as a compliment. I am sure he didn't mean it that way. Keep going.

 

[Rory Wilson]

The thought of a lonely, isolated God, having no fellowships and no relationships within Himself just doesn't sit right with me. I believe God is Father, Son, and Spirit.

God contains within himself a companionship. God is able to express Himself within Himself, as it were; He goes forth from Himself in the Eternal Son, to return to Himself in the Eternal Spirit.

Within the Being of God the eternal unfathomable reality is the Father, the Eternal Word or Wisdom or Activity of God is the Son, the going-forth of creation, the Holy Spirit is the nexus between the Father and the Son. These three are a society in unity, self-contained and self-sufficient.

But besides this economy within the Godhead itself, we are to think of the Deity locating Himself within human limitations, surrendering omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence, while retaining moral perfection and spiritual consciousness, and so presenting himself in the historical person of Jesus, the son of Mary.

 

[Runningman]

The thought of a lonely, isolated God, having no fellowships and no relationships within Himself just doesn't sit right with me. I believe God is Father, Son, and Spirit.

God contains within himself a companionship. God is able to express Himself within Himself, as it were; He goes forth from Himself in the Eternal Son, to return to Himself in the Eternal Spirit.

Within the Being of God the eternal unfathomable reality is the Father, the Eternal Word or Wisdom or Activity of God is the Son, the going-forth of creation, the Holy Spirit is the nexus between the Father and the Son. These three are a society in unity, self-contained and self-sufficient.

But besides this economy within the Godhead itself, we are to think of the Deity locating Himself within human limitations, surrendering omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence, while retaining moral perfection and spiritual consciousness, and so presenting himself in the historical person of Jesus, the son of Mary.

I understand your concern and emotions about something can make us want to believe a what we feel is a better version of a story because it sits better with us; it can help us have internal peace, closure, resolution, and give a reason for why things are the way they are. We are all human and have experienced that.

However, as far as the Bible goes, we should not use or feelings to guide us in our quest for truth because our feelings can mislead us. The Bible says the heart is deceitful and it can deceive you. Ever had a good feeling about something and it turned out to be a disaster? That's because feelings aren't the same thing as objective truth, even if the feelings feel correct and comfortable.

So we should just go with what the Bible says, which is very far away from what sits well with you. We should try to find peace and solace in the fact that we cannot control everything and that everything isn't up for us to decide how the story begins. Try praying for the peace to accept the things you cannot change in regards to the trinity and it being totally absent from the Bible.

 

[Rory Wilson]

I understand your concern and emotions about something can make us want to believe a what we feel is a better version of a story because it sits better with us; it can help us have internal peace, closure, resolution, and give a reason for why things are the way they are. We are all human and have experienced that.

However, as far as the Bible goes, we should not use or feelings to guide us in our quest for truth because our feelings can mislead us. The Bible says the heart is deceitful and it can deceive you. Ever had a good feeling about something and it turned out to be a disaster? That's because feelings aren't the same thing as objective truth, even if the feelings feel correct and comfortable.

So we should just go with what the Bible says, which is very far away from what sits well with you. We should try to find peace and solace in the fact that we cannot control everything and that everything isn't up for us to decide how the story begins. Try praying for the peace to accept the things you cannot change in regards to the trinity and it being totally absent from the Bible.

But I can see the Trinity clearly in the Bible. The clearest reference to Jesus’ deity in the New Testament comes at the opening of John’s gospel. It reads, “In the beginning was the Word "that is, the Logos", and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John1:1

In that first sentence, I see the mystery of the Trinity, because the Logos is said to have been with God from the beginning.

 

[mikesw]

But I can see the Trinity clearly in the Bible. The clearest reference to Jesus’ deity in the New Testament comes at the opening of John’s gospel. It reads, “In the beginning was the Word "that is, the Logos", and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John1:1

In that first sentence, I see the mystery of the Trinity, because the Logos is said to have been with God from the beginning.

Right. It takes a major effort to deny what John 1 says about Christ. It hardly is natural to avoid seeing the divine One taking on flesh here. But the unitarian pretends it is natural to miss that.

 

[Runningman]

But I can see the Trinity clearly in the Bible. The clearest reference to Jesus’ deity in the New Testament comes at the opening of John’s gospel. It reads, “In the beginning was the Word "that is, the Logos", and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John1:1

In that first sentence, I see the mystery of the Trinity, because the Logos is said to have been with God from the beginning.

Totally understand. Why do you think only John was privy to that and no one else talked about it? And do you think there are other interpretations or only the one you provided?

 

[Peterlag]

But I can see the Trinity clearly in the Bible. The clearest reference to Jesus’ deity in the New Testament comes at the opening of John’s gospel. It reads, “In the beginning was the Word "that is, the Logos", and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John1:1

In that first sentence, I see the mystery of the Trinity, because the Logos is said to have been with God from the beginning.

John 1:1 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

 

[Runningman]

John 1:1 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

It's odd that they define the word "word" as Jesus. The Bible never says that. It's amazing how the heresy of the trinity would simply vanish if only the vocabulary of the Bible was used.

 

[civic]

It's odd that they define the word "word" as Jesus. The Bible never says that. It's amazing how the heresy of the trinity would simply vanish if only the vocabulary of the Bible was used.

thats hilarious I guess Revelation 19:13 is missing from your bible eh

The same Word identified as Jesus is the same Word below.

John 1:1, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…

1 John 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

next fallacy

 

[Peterlag]

It's odd that they define the word "word" as Jesus. The Bible never says that. It's amazing how the heresy of the trinity would simply vanish if only the vocabulary of the Bible was used.

A friend of mine put it this way... "The word "logos" (Word) denotes (I) "the expression of thought" as embodying a conception or idea. λόγος "logos" is something said (including the thought). So the word "logos" means an expression of thought. It makes perfect sense if we use this understanding everywhere the word "logos" is used. So in John 1:1 the Word is not Jesus, but rather it became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan that became flesh with the coming of Jesus Christ."

 

[Runningman]

A friend of mine put it this way... "The word "logos" (Word) denotes (I) "the expression of thought" as embodying a conception or idea. λόγος "logos" is something said (including the thought). So the word "logos" means an expression of thought. It makes perfect sense if we use this understanding everywhere the word "logos" is used. So in John 1:1 the Word is not Jesus, but rather it became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan that became flesh with the coming of Jesus Christ."

Some trinitarian theologians more or less agree with this.

Meyer's NT Commentary
The reality contained in this representation, anthropomorphic as to its form, of the revelation of Himself made in creation by God, who is in His own nature hidden, became the root of the Logos idea. The Word as creative, and embodying generally the divine will, is personified in Hebrew poetry (Psalm 33:6; Psalm 107:20; Psalm 147:15; Isaiah 55:10-11); and consequent upon this concrete and independent representation, divine attributes are predicated of it (Psalm 34:4; Isaiah 40:8; Psalm 119:105), so far as it was at the same time the continuous revelation of God in law and prophecy. A way was thus paved for the hypostatizing of the λόγος as a further step in the knowledge of the relations in the divine essence; but this advance took place gradually, and only after the captivity, so that probably the oriental doctrine of emanations, and subsequently the Pythagorean-platonic philosophy, were not without influence upon what was already given in germ in Genesis 1.

source: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/meyer/john/1.htm

It's possible to occasionally find some gems in trinitarian commentaries that affirm realistic approach to Scripture. On this particular point, I like what Meyer had to say about the Word.

 

[civic]

A friend of mine put it this way... "The word "logos" (Word) denotes (I) "the expression of thought" as embodying a conception or idea. λόγος "logos" is something said (including the thought). So the word "logos" means an expression of thought. It makes perfect sense if we use this understanding everywhere the word "logos" is used. So in John 1:1 the Word is not Jesus, but rather it became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan that became flesh with the coming of Jesus Christ."

thoughts do not create all things and thoughts do not exist before all things- Persons do, the Word is a Person identified as God. The Word is also called Jesus.

you are espousing philo/greek philosophy, not the bible

 

[Runningman]

thoughts do not create all things and thoughts do not exist before all things- Persons do, the Word is a Person identified as God. The Word is also called Jesus.

you are espousing philo/greek philosophy, not the bible

God didn't have thoughts of what to create before He created all things? Please explain that to us.

 

[civic]

God didn't have thoughts of what to create before He created all things? Please explain that to us.

Did your thoughts make dinner today and your thoughts eat the food or did you ?

Next fallacy

 

[Runningman]

Did your thoughts make dinner today and your thoughts eat the food or did you ?

Next fallacy

Yes, Scripture states that God has thoughts and speaks words to create. Of course it follows that God had a plan about what to do before doing it. I don't see how this is a meaningful argument against the Father creating alone. Unlike Jesus who had to pick heads of wheat, pull figs from the trees, or go fishing to eat.

 

[civic]

Yes, Scripture states that God has thoughts and speaks words to create. Of course it follows that God had a plan about what to do before doing it. I don't see how this is a meaningful argument against the Father creating alone. Unlike Jesus who had to pick heads of wheat, pull figs from the trees, or go fishing to eat.

lol keep telling yourself that is the case when you know it’s not.

Next time you get pulled over for speeding tell the officer your thoughts did the speeding not you

Then in court try that reasoning with the judge

 

[Runningman]

lol keep telling yourself that is the case when you know it’s not.

Next time you get pulled over for speeding tell the officer your thoughts did the speeding not you

Then in court try that reasoning with the judge

So... what's your point exactly? Are you saying God had to manually create the universe with a hammer, nails, and duct tape because He can't use words and thoughts to create?