Peterlag
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The Trinity and the Incarnation
- Thread starter Rory Wilson
- Start date
Or this one...
Now I lay me down to sleep. I pray the Trinity my soul to keep.
Now let me sprinkle some fairy dust on your Satanic Wizard.
Peterlag
Active Member
The “holy spirit” God gave in the Old Testament was God’s nature...
but after the Day of Pentecost He gave His nature in a new and fuller way than He had ever given it before and this is what was foretold in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26). It was because this new spirit was promised in the Old Testament that the New Testament calls it “the promised holy spirit” Ephesians 1:13; Acts 2:33; Galatians 3:14). We have the “firstfruits” of the spirit (Romans 8:23) because Christians are the first to receive this new spirit and that's why we have the guarantee that we will be in the coming Messianic Kingdom.
The gift of the holy spirit that Christians have is a gift and thus an “it.” Jesus told the apostles that the spirit would be “in” them (John 14:17)—which is what happened on the Day of Pentecost when the holy spirit went from being with or “upon” people in the Old Testament and Gospels to being born “in” people on and after the Day of Pentecost. The spirit is sent by the Father (John 14:16-17) and Jesus (John 16:7). It does not speak on its own, but it speaks only what it hears (John 16:13). Thus, the gift of the holy spirit is directed by God and Jesus, which is what we would expect since it's God’s nature born in us. The gift of the holy spirit is the nature of God, and when it's born in us it becomes part of our very nature (2 Peter 1:4).
God does not change, but the gift of God’s holy spirit that believers have today is different from the spirit that God gave in the Old Testament, and so the gift of God’s spirit has changed. The simple and straightforward reading of the Scripture is that there is one God, who is sometimes referred to as “the Holy Spirit” and one Lord who is the man Jesus Christ, and one gift of the holy spirit that is the nature of God that He gives to people.
but after the Day of Pentecost He gave His nature in a new and fuller way than He had ever given it before and this is what was foretold in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26). It was because this new spirit was promised in the Old Testament that the New Testament calls it “the promised holy spirit” Ephesians 1:13; Acts 2:33; Galatians 3:14). We have the “firstfruits” of the spirit (Romans 8:23) because Christians are the first to receive this new spirit and that's why we have the guarantee that we will be in the coming Messianic Kingdom.
The gift of the holy spirit that Christians have is a gift and thus an “it.” Jesus told the apostles that the spirit would be “in” them (John 14:17)—which is what happened on the Day of Pentecost when the holy spirit went from being with or “upon” people in the Old Testament and Gospels to being born “in” people on and after the Day of Pentecost. The spirit is sent by the Father (John 14:16-17) and Jesus (John 16:7). It does not speak on its own, but it speaks only what it hears (John 16:13). Thus, the gift of the holy spirit is directed by God and Jesus, which is what we would expect since it's God’s nature born in us. The gift of the holy spirit is the nature of God, and when it's born in us it becomes part of our very nature (2 Peter 1:4).
God does not change, but the gift of God’s holy spirit that believers have today is different from the spirit that God gave in the Old Testament, and so the gift of God’s spirit has changed. The simple and straightforward reading of the Scripture is that there is one God, who is sometimes referred to as “the Holy Spirit” and one Lord who is the man Jesus Christ, and one gift of the holy spirit that is the nature of God that He gives to people.
Rory Wilson
Active Member
I find that modern orthodoxy holds its own largely by confidently assuring men that the Trinitarian doctrine of God is the only rational one, and that people who are satisfied with a non Trinitarian God show that they have no biblical aptitude.
The Trinitarian theory is the only rational one, and wherein the irrationality of the opposite hypothesis consists; together with a reminder that logical precision is as essential to right reason as metaphysical subtlety, and an invitation to state the Trinitarian doctrine without using the words ‘God,’ ‘the Son,’ and ‘Christ’ in shifting senses and without ‘dividing the substance or confounding the Persons.’
The Trinitarian theory is the only rational one, and wherein the irrationality of the opposite hypothesis consists; together with a reminder that logical precision is as essential to right reason as metaphysical subtlety, and an invitation to state the Trinitarian doctrine without using the words ‘God,’ ‘the Son,’ and ‘Christ’ in shifting senses and without ‘dividing the substance or confounding the Persons.’
Peterlag
Active Member
Yeah well, the modern orthodoxy may hold its own largely by confidently assuring men that the Trinitarian doctrine of God is the only rational one. But the Scriptures don't.
Rory Wilson
Active Member
Myself and many others enlightened Christians are in agreement in declaring that ‘in God there are relations which are as well expressed by the terms Father, Son, and Spirit, as by any other which we can suggest.’ ‘From before all time, in the abyss of eternity, God was Father, Son, and Spirit.’ I hope you will not be found to escape the perplexities, inconsistencies, and contradictions which have dogged the steps of others who have tried to doge the logical sequence and contents of the doctrine of the Trinity. It would be wearisome to track any exposition of this topic in all its detail. Let us content ourselves with the following.
The Trinity is important because it's a foundational Christian belief that shapes all other doctrines, particularly the nature of salvation and God's relationship with humanity. It explains how God can be one being in three co-equal, co-eternal persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—which is seen as essential for the gospel story of redemption, as each person of the Trinity plays a specific role in salvation. The Trinity also provides a model for human relationship and a basis for Christian confidence and hope.
Peterlag
Active Member
I believe your religious system is not biblical.
There is no Scripture that suggest God is seen as essential for the gospel story of redemption other than he sent His son.
Rory Wilson
Active Member
If one does not know who Jesus is and His place in the Trinity they are not saved.
The phrase "depart from me, I never knew you" is from a biblical passage in Matthew 7:23, where Jesus warns that not everyone who claims to be a follower will enter the kingdom of heaven. It is spoken to those who claim religious authority but are in denial when it comes to the Trinity.
Christ's divinity is essential for Jesus' sacrifice to be a sufficient atonement for the sins of all humanity, he must be both fully human and fully God.
civic
Active Member
lets not post these kinds of things on the forum, thank you.
Peterlag
Active Member
Okay.
Peterlag
Active Member
There's no Scripture that even suggests that Jesus is both fully human and fully God.
civic
Active Member
Much appreciated, thanks !
And this goes for any trinitarians doing the the same thing to unitarians.
Peterlag
Active Member
You are so very right about this.Much appreciated, thanks !
And this goes for any trinitarians doing the the same thing to unitarians.
civic
Active Member
I know you know this but this stuff happens on other sites and I don't want ours to be like that and I was guilty of doing the same thing myself all the time on the old forum many of us here came from. I want to leave that behavior in the past.
And I know its easy to get caught up in that stuff as we are all very passionate about what we believe and it can get heated at times.
Peterlag
Active Member
I'm 100 percent on your side with this.
Peterlag
Active Member
Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the four gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.
Rory Wilson
Active Member
The statement "Jesus is God" is a central doctrine of Christianity, often explained through the concept of the Trinity. According to this belief, there is one God who exists as three co-equal, co-eternal persons: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. While Jesus is understood to be God, he is also considered distinct from the Father, existing as both fully God and fully human. The New Testament contains passages that explicitly identify Jesus as God and describe his divinity.
Peterlag
Active Member
You cannot list one verse that shows Jesus as God that makes any sense to me because there are none.
Matt 13:14-15 makes sense here:
Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“ ‘ “You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
The Holy Bible: ESV Crossway Bibles, 2016, Mt 13:14–15.
Peterlag
Active Member
Which verse in Matthew 13 shows Jesus as God?
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